JMS comments on Spider-Man at C2E2 2012

[Meehaul]

I don't think so, though, because working from within the system to affect real change is sort of the necessary "Peter Parker" reflection of the way he works outside the system to affect change.

Being a teacher doesn't have to mean reading the prescribed lesson plans and going through rote memorization. Getting at young kids and instilling in them the same sense of responsibility, duty, honor and goodness that Uncle Ben instilled in him is, I think, a very worthy, sensible move for the character.

Put it this way; watch the movie "Half Nelson", and tell me that Ryan Gosling didn't look anti-establishment there, while being a teacher. I DARE YOU!

I disagree. It's not about Pete working to "change" teaching. This is not remotely akin to Half Nelson, which was a good movie. This is about a loner/outsider personality who, even while he believes in authority--he chastised the college protestors back in the 60's and he really wanted to join the FF and the Avengers--stands outside and apart from it largely because it misunderstands him. He stands in an interesting position with respect to authority. He both embraces it and rejects it. And authority, by and large, rejects him. He is not a reformer trying to change any system. He is simply a perpetual outsider. He wants to be a part of "the crowd" even as he interrogates it. Thus, Pete critiques authority without being subversive. Being a teacher cuts against the outsider/anti-authoritarian streak and it further alienates him from youth. Although there are plenty of young teachers, once one becomes a teacher, he no longer represents youth in the same way.

[vmenge]

This all reminds me why JMS really was, with Howard Mackie, the low point in AMS--not so much because so many of the stories weren't interesting, or because he didn't write good dialogue (because he did), but because he transformed Pete and his world, and not in a good way. The futzing with the origin story, the mystical elements, Sins Past, making Pete a teacher...all quite destructive of the character, imho. But, for those people who came into the book during his run, or immeditely before, I can understand why they might like it. Still, I put it at the absolute bottom of the spider-verse.

Weird... I read the stuff by JMS in the chronological release order, that is, after reading every single issue from Amazing and the other Spidey books since 1963, and I found it to be one of the best runs any writer ever had with Pete and Spider-Man :P
To each his own I guess :)

[Meehaul]

Weird... I read the stuff by JMS in the chronological release order, that is, after reading every single issue from Amazing and the other Spidey books since 1963, and I found it to be one of the best runs any writer ever had with Pete and Spider-Man :P
To each his own I guess :)

Thats what makes it interesting! All our preferences are ultimately ours alone. I'm sure Mackie has plenty of fans too. Having read every ASM and the related books prior to JMS taking over the franchise (and I was excited to have him on board as he was a big deal), I felt like JMS was writing about a completely different character than the one I had grown up with. While some of the stories were fine, the ostensible changes to the origin (making it non-random and a part of a spidery destiny), the reliance upon all the mystical nonsense, and Sins Past, coupled with the elimination of the bulk of the supporting cast and the failure to create any interesting new villains while at the same time rarely using the classic ones, made JMS's run my least favorite, by far. But tastes obviously differ!

[stillanerd]

The thing we have to remember is what the state of Spider-Man was at the time J. Michael Straczynski was brought in. The character was in a downward spiral ever since the debacle of the Clone Saga, and Howard Mackie and John Byrne's attempt to "reboot" the character made things worse. the newly launched Ultimate Spider-Man, on the other hand, proved to be such a hit that it was widely believed by some that it would replace the 616 Spider-Man altogether. JMS, being notable at the time as the creator of the cult-favorite Babylon 5, was seen as the guy who could fix Spider-Man, and that hopefully his name recognition would attract more readers.

And I think those initial comments quoted at the beginning of the thread pretty much underline his philosophy when it came to Spider-Man: not only are many of the concepts that defined the character overused, worn out and out-of-date, but they no longer work given that Spider-Man, as a character, is now. He likely asked himself "Why is Peter Parker, a guy in his mid to late twenties at least, still have the same job that he did in high school?" Thus making him into a substitute teacher, something which could utilize Peter's intelligence while still have the "down-to-Earth" feel that the Daily Bugle had for him. "Given what we know about radiation, how come Peter didn't die after being bitten by the spider that gave him his powers?" Thus we got the whole Totemism angle applied to his origin. "Why is Peter, for all his technical skill and years of fighting crime, still wearing the same costume?" Enter ASM #500 with a future Spidey wearing a leather jacket variation and the character of the Tailor. "Why is Peter still keeping his identity as Spider-Man secret from his Aunt May?" Presto! Aunt May figures it out and wouldn't you know it? Peter had nothing to worry about after all. "If Peter and Mary Jane are supposed to be married, shouldn't Peter be more concerned about wanting to have his wife come back than hooking up with the Black Cat yet again?" Thus, he gradually brings MJ back and attempts to make them act like a genuine married couple. "Why are we still so stuck on Gwen Stacy when the character has been dead for over thirty years?" And so we get Sins Past.

Thus, rightly or wrongly, JMS was making the attempt to evolve Spider-Man to not only make him more contemporary but to also take him to his next logical development given where he was as a character now. Of course, much of what he came up with was hit-or-miss, not to mention he ran into the problem very serialized comic book runs into: too much change and development makes it harder for new and returning readers to jump on board, or so it's believed.

[ShaggyB]

Technically, it took JMS over a quarter of his run to bring Peter and MJ back together.

I was about to post that exact thing. Volume 2 Issue #30 is when JMS took over.... MJ and peter werent back together until Issue #50.... Thats hardly "first thing I did" time frame. Its near 2 years into his run. I think he may have selective memory in this case. It may seem like first thing to him looking back but it took a long time to do. (looks as though 2 months had no ships and 1 month was the 911 issue..... 20 once a month releases is just a very long wait for it to be called "first thing")

[Meehaul]

And this sums up many of my criticisms about JMS. He dealt with superficial questions that failed to account for, in my view, what made the character so important from the get-go. And even when he answered the questions he, himself posed, he answered them in a way that was inconsistent with the past. Pete's sense of alienation, his desire to belong even as he is rejected, his everyday worries, and the randomness of the event that bestowed his powers, all go straight to the character's core, imho, and make him a great fictional creation. Part of being a great fictional creation is a sesne of timlessness, which Pete has (had). His problems and struggles are the same sorts of things that define the lives of people journeying to adulthood everywhere. When you make his powers a part of destiny, when you give him a model/actress wife, make him Avenger, etc., you take away pieces of what makes (made) the character such a unique creation. Most of the issues JMS seemed to focus on are cosmetic and are just a part of the genre. To me, JMS never quite understood what made the character so unique in comics. I guess it's harder to appreciate that now, as the model has been copied so many times. Bendis, too, made a "hipper" more accessible and maybe even a more "logical" Spidey with the Ultimate version, but he completely missed the heart. Bendis and Bagely were no Lee & Ditko.

[Kevinroc]

I was about to post that exact thing. Volume 2 Issue #30 is when JMS took over.... MJ and peter werent back together until Issue #50.... Thats hardly "first thing I did" time frame. Its near 2 years into his run. I think he may have selective memory in this case. It may seem like first thing to him looking back but it took a long time to do. (looks as though 2 months had no ships and 1 month was the 911 issue..... 20 once a month releases is just a very long wait for it to be called "first thing")

Like I said earlier in the thread, I think the behind-the-scenes stuff with Kevin Smith caused some delays in what JMS wanted to do.

[derekakadrock]

If one construes Pete's character to be anti-authoritarian in some respects and representative of youth, then making him a teacher, the most important authority figure in kids' lives--apart from their parents--is destructive to the character's nature and distances him from most conceptions of "youth."

I totally agree with you on this.

[stillanerd]

And this sums up many of my criticisms about JMS. He dealt with superficial questions that failed to account for, in my view, what made the character so important from the get-go. And even when he answered the questions he, himself posed, he answered them in a way that was inconsistent with the past. Pete's sense of alienation, his desire to belong even as he is rejected, his everyday worries, and the randomness of the event that bestowed his powers, all go straight to the character's core, imho, and make him a great fictional creation. Part of being a great fictional creation is a sesne of timlessness, which Pete has (had). His problems and struggles are the same sorts of things that define the lives of people journeying to adulthood everywhere. When you make his powers a part of destiny, when you give him a model/actress wife, make him Avenger, etc., you take away pieces of what makes (made) the character such a unique creation. Most of the issues JMS seemed to focus on are cosmetic and are just a part of the genre. To me, JMS never quite understood what made the character so unique in comics. I guess it's harder to appreciate that now, as the model has been copied so many times. Bendis, too, made a "hipper" more accessible and maybe even a more "logical" Spidey with the Ultimate version, but he completely missed the heart. Bendis and Bagely were no Lee & Ditko.

Very well said. Although, I don't think the problems JMS had with Spider-Man was limited to him alone. I believe Marvel has been struggling for years to be true to who Peter Parker/Spider-Man is--all the things you mentioned that make him a timeless character, BTW--while coming to grips with his overall development as a character. I think it's pretty evident, based upon how Spider-Man is represented in various media and even other comics that have separate continuity from the 616, that Marvel would like nothing better than to have him still be a teenager, because they realize that giving him the same kinds of problems and worries he had as a teenager while he's an adult makes look rather pathetic than sympathetic. Yet, if they give him new problems, worries, and responsibilities that are more reflective of his current age, then they run the risk of taking away the very qualities that made him such a beloved and timeless comic book character to begin with. Hence why we have the present contradictory set-up in which we are told that Spider-Man is about "youth" despite him currently being a young adult in his mid to late-twenties at the very least.

[Meehaul]

Very well said. Although, I don't the problems JMS had with Spider-Man was limited to him alone. I believe Marvel has been struggling for years to be true to who Peter Parker/Spider-Man is--all the things you mentioned that make him a timeless character, BTW--while coming to grips with his overall development as a character. I think it's pretty evident, based upon how Spider-Man is represented in various media and even other comics that have separate continuity from the 616, that Marvel would like nothing better than to have him still be a teenager, because they realize that given him the same kinds of problems and worries he had as a teenager while he's an adult makes look rather pathetic than sympathetic. Yet, if they give him new problems, worries, and responsibilities that are more reflective of his current age, then they run the risk of taking away the very qualities that made him such a beloved and timeless comic book character to begin with. Hence why we have the present contraction in which we are told that Spider-Man is about "youth" despite currently being a young adult in his mid to late-twenties at the very least.

I agree in many respects. I think Marvel has clearly struggled with the character--and all the companies have struggled with the nature of serialized fiction. Marvel has used Spidey to sell toys and promote other characters (as they should) and allowed him to stray from his roots. I got very excited when Marvel finally committed to ending the Pete/MJ relationship and when the Breevort Manifesto came out--which I thought was, by and large, spot on. Quesada, as a creator and fan himself, plainly cares about the characters, so I was pretty excited about the future. Some of that enthusiam has been dimmed by the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, which I think is just horrible, and Disney's acquistion of the company. Maybe that will be great, but maybe it won't. I'm hoping, if Disney acquired Marvel to make inroads into the "boy" market, that they go the Pixar route and recognize that the strength of Marvel is in the characters, and that Pete, in particular, represents the sort of alienation and "otherness" that most adolescent boys experience and that they stick with those serious themes rather than trying to "update" the character. I think if Disney makes that commitment, they will see success with the character--much the same way Pixar has seen success by creating strong, character-driven films. If I ran Marvel, I'd make everyone read AF 15 and ASM 1-38 and the Breevort manifesto weekly. To me, those first three years are the key to understanding Peter Parker. Disney executives should do the same.

As for the problem with serialized fiction, it's a bit like the Social Security conundrum. When Roosevelt proposed, and Congress enacted, the Social Security Program, no one contemplated that people would be living consistently well into their 80's and 90's. When Lee & Ditko created Spidey, they weren't thinking they were creating a character that would last (at least) 50 years. Still, I think Bendis & Co. did a fine job keeping Pete in high school for, what, 11 years? I can see not wanting to keep Pete in high school forever, as that does limit story telling to some extent (hard to explore sex & drug issues too deeply with high school kids or people get upset), but Pete can probably stay in his mid-20's forever. I think the only other commercially realistic way of dealing with this issue would be to re-boot the franchise every 25 years or so. The big "25" is recognized as constituting a generation. Let each generation get a (relatively) self-contained, continuous story. Maybe Pete winds up with MJ is one version. In another, he winds up with Gwen. In yet another, he winds up with some character we don't know, but is the Gwen/MJ for a new generation. In yet another, maybe he dies. As consumers, we're selfish. We want to know "what happens" to Pete. But, the reality is that Pete will be slinging webs long after we're dead and forgotten--if Marvel plays its cards (and copyright law) right. Other than hard core fans, people barely remember Gwen today. In another 10 years, if she plays no significant role, people will barely remember MJ. That's just the way it is.

[Chuckles]

I don't think that youth and 'coming of age' are intrinsic to Spider-Man at all. They are an excellent platform for the mythos but not essential.

[ShaggyB]

Like I said earlier in the thread, I think the behind-the-scenes stuff with Kevin Smith caused some delays in what JMS wanted to do.

perhaps, but i think he should be more clear with his words. 'The first thing he wanted to do when he came on to Spider-Man was get them back together again.'

Because for whatever reason really happened, it was not the first thing he did do. (its also one of the reasons i disliked his run.... he spent so much time with getting them back together. Had he done it quick I would have liked it better.)

[Talisman]

Blech. Found his to run to be horribly boring. It only seemed like it was so good because Mackie did such a shitty job before he got on the book.

[Will.S]

Never liked JMS. Ok the first part of his run, that is up until #500 is good, though not essential for me in any way. I was kind of bored seeing Doctor Strange and magical characters appear all the time. Though the conversation issue is sure in my top 50. I think #501 was also good but at that moment foreword everything is boring or not good at all, and I wouldn;t mind the magic characters if the resolution was anything better that "The Book of Ezekiel". And let's not talk about what happens next. Sure he had some very good moments, like the way he handled the Peter - MJ relationship, and that there were unbelievable fun moments, especially in this first part, but I think the guy was better in Spider-Man when he had people talking and stuff, so it would be maybe better if he was in Tangled Web or something else.

While JMS did pull the mystical card quite often, they usually made for the best "out of his element" type of stories that had a good deal of humor to them although others were of a more darker vein as well.

If one construes Pete's character to be anti-authoritarian in some respects and representative of youth, then making him a teacher, the most important authority figure in kids' lives--apart from their parents--is destructive to the character's nature and distances him from most conceptions of "youth."

I'd hardly call it destructive, in the grand scheme of things it was basically just another status quo. Personally I liked it since it involved the two things he normally enjoyed doing which was to use science and help people out but in this case it was a little deeper than that since Peter as a teacher was more ingrained into the community so I don't think that really went against his character in any respect. I actually thought it gave him more depth and maturity than he had in a while without sacrificing the humor.

While I can understand the complaint of it aging the character for me it felt like a right path to put him in and while I think some critics are a little too hung up on the logistics of how he would be able to be both Spider-Man and Peter Parker as a teacher, I thought the stories carried that status quo pretty well without making it glaringly obvious. Also for those who keep emphasizing the youthful aspect of the character, while I agree that that aspect should be retained you also have to take into account that once Peter had gone past the high school/college phase he inevitably entered another stage of his life that isn't so much youthful as much as a holding pattern type of status quo that can go forever.

With regards to the marriage and Aunt May, very few writers have managed to write Peter's relationship with May and MJ as well as JMS had. Even if you take away the mystical stuff people hated, the Sins Past stories, and the lack of classic villains, I don't think you can take away from JMS that the relationship between Peter, MJ, and Aunt May was never closer. He also sold the Tony/Peter relationship well enough to make it actually painful to see both set against each other during Civil War. While JMS's run had a lot of problems I do think that it's an era of Spider-Man that is atypical of various other Spider-Man runs in that it took risks, refreshed the character after years of mediocre quality stories, and developed relationships between the main characters to such a degree that we probably won't see again.

[Xenon]

If one construes Pete's character to be anti-authoritarian in some respects and representative of youth, then making him a teacher, the most important authority figure in kids' lives--apart from their parents--is destructive to the character's nature and distances him from most conceptions of "youth."

mmm, I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with it. I had numerous teachers that I considered at the time to be anti-authoritarian and/or youthful. I'm not sure that the job inherently destroys those characteristics, even if you find them necessary (I would argue Youth has never really been a part of the story, and that Peter Parker has been an old man since he was fifteen, but I digress)

I did too. JMS told a pretty effective story with the behind-the-scenes drama. But who knows what kind of story we would have gotten if JMS didn't have to worry about these things.

It makes you wonder. Sometimes things turn out better when they don't turn out how you'd want.

The problem I have is that I liked JMS having May find out for all the wrong reasons. It was cute, and I liked how she confronted JJJ, BUT it's like I was reading Ultimate Aunt May. I think she should have been far less accepting of Peter being Spider-Man, because there *is* this big, wide generation gap between them. She doesn't have to disown him or anything so drastic, but it felt like another example of characters over the years being written to appease Peter Parker.

I suppose that depends what you mean here. I mean, over the years, Peter has gone to her for numerous things and Aunt May has very much advocated the responsible position, oft a more sacrificial position than Peter was willing to go with even. I can't say that she would think it's a bad thing or be mad at him for it. She probably would advocate he stay home with his wife more often and not go out on patrol, but I can't see her reacting too negatively to it.

I was about to post that exact thing. Volume 2 Issue #30 is when JMS took over.... MJ and peter werent back together until Issue #50.... Thats hardly "first thing I did" time frame. Its near 2 years into his run. I think he may have selective memory in this case. It may seem like first thing to him looking back but it took a long time to do. (looks as though 2 months had no ships and 1 month was the 911 issue..... 20 once a month releases is just a very long wait for it to be called "first thing")

I would just assume it's a "first chance I could" thing. I imagine that those first few years were pumped out of his mind fairly quickly, anyway, so it probably runs together more for him.

I agree in many respects. I think Marvel has clearly struggled with the character--and all the companies have struggled with the nature of serialized fiction. Marvel has used Spidey to sell toys and promote other characters (as they should) and allowed him to stray from his roots. I got very excited when Marvel finally committed to ending the Pete/MJ relationship and when the Breevort Manifesto came out--which I thought was, by and large, spot on. Quesada, as a creator and fan himself, plainly cares about the characters, so I was pretty excited about the future. Some of that enthusiam has been dimmed by the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, which I think is just horrible, and Disney's acquistion of the company. Maybe that will be great, but maybe it won't. I'm hoping, if Disney acquired Marvel to make inroads into the "boy" market, that they go the Pixar route and recognize that the strength of Marvel is in the characters, and that Pete, in particular, represents the sort of alienation and "otherness" that most adolescent boys experience and that they stick with those serious themes rather than trying to "update" the character. I think if Disney makes that commitment, they will see success with the character--much the same way Pixar has seen success by creating strong, character-driven films. If I ran Marvel, I'd make everyone read AF 15 and ASM 1-38 and the Breevort manifesto weekly. To me, those first three years are the key to understanding Peter Parker. Disney executives should do the same.

As for the problem with serialized fiction, it's a bit like the Social Security conundrum. When Roosevelt proposed, and Congress enacted, the Social Security Program, no one contemplated that people would be living consistently well into their 80's and 90's. When Lee & Ditko created Spidey, they weren't thinking they were creating a character that would last (at least) 50 years. Still, I think Bendis & Co. did a fine job keeping Pete in high school for, what, 11 years? I can see not wanting to keep Pete in high school forever, as that does limit story telling to some extent (hard to explore sex & drug issues too deeply with high school kids or people get upset), but Pete can probably stay in his mid-20's forever. I think the only other commercially realistic way of dealing with this issue would be to re-boot the franchise every 25 years or so. The big "25" is recognized as constituting a generation. Let each generation get a (relatively) self-contained, continuous story. Maybe Pete winds up with MJ is one version. In another, he winds up with Gwen. In yet another, he winds up with some character we don't know, but is the Gwen/MJ for a new generation. In yet another, maybe he dies. As consumers, we're selfish. We want to know "what happens" to Pete. But, the reality is that Pete will be slinging webs long after we're dead and forgotten--if Marvel plays its cards (and copyright law) right. Other than hard core fans, people barely remember Gwen today. In another 10 years, if she plays no significant role, people will barely remember MJ. That's just the way it is.

This second paragraph is mostly spot on. Part of the thing that makes Spider-Man the best comic book series is the thing that ultimately makes it hard to use in comics. Spider-Man was a story of progress and growing up, which is fine and dandy, except, you know, he actually did it. Which is great, but then leaves the question "what now?". Which is why I've always been a fan of a Gundam style approach to these franchises. Let them run 10-20 years, then transplant them into something new. Rather than being a con-current line, Ultimate should have been a patten to hat they'd do in the future. And sure, they've ****ed that universe up over the past ten year, but so what? They can just let it reach its conclusion and start a new Universe. Stories are then free to have consequence and meaning, but you can still come back to the old elements, you just have to hold on to them for a while.

I will say again, however, that the idea that Mary Jane will be forgotten is wishful thinking on your part. Gwen had the unfortunate timing of being too late for the 60s cartoon (when you consider planning and stuff) and too dead by the time the later media rolled around. plus, she was only in the franchise for five or six years. Mary Jane has not only been in the franchise for damn near the entire FIFTY years, she was also married to him for twenty of that, and has appeared in her own comic series and numerous other forms of media. I may prefer the blonde, but the red head's exposure and penetration into the franchise is much more far reaching. Certainly, if you made a new Spider-Man that wasn't part of the same long story, you could ditch her (see: Spectacular, the new movie), but that's the only way she'll be "forgotten", and even then, you'd still get questions about her (much like how I get questions about Gundam Wing when talking about other Gundams)