'Rama Interview: Brian Azzarello on WW

[americanwonder]

lol.

First rule of WW fight club - we do not say anything negative about this story

Second rule of WW fight club - we do not ask questions

You will read it and you will like it and you will sit there until you do!

[Rob_Olivera]

lol.

First rule of WW fight club - we do not say anything negative about this story

Second rule of WW fight club - we do not ask questions

You will read it and you will like it and you will sit there until you do!

Heheheh.... You know what? I would LOVE this story a whole lot more if Wonder Woman went Bi-Monthly and we got 44 pages each issue! I would say Bi-Annual and get 132 pages, but I can't wait that long!

[americanwonder]

Maybe, maybe not. I hope I wouldn't respond that way, because the phrase "what I've read" suggests that this is only a statement about what has been in the comic so far and not an assumption about where the story is going. But saying ""they have no redeeming qualities" is different from saying "I don't like what I've read [so far]." To say they have not redeeming qualities (without adding something like "that we've seen so far") implies that we know enough to make a final judgement. And we don't.

Slvn, I like you. You're a great poster here. Freindly and intelligent. But ^this is dumb. Imply is not the same as infer. We all know we haven't read the whole story. Nobody has claimed otherwise. Saying "they have no redeeming qualities" is obviously an opinion and obviously based on what the person has read.

By the same token, admittedly, if someone like me says "Azzarello has portrayed Wonder Woman as a hero and hasn't shown her to be corrupt at all," you're entitled to add "...so far."

You are entitled to add "so far" to any negative comment, too, right? ;)

eta:
Maybe I'm just lazy and tired of typing "thus far" 70 times in each post (and still having people misconstrue what I'm saying). But shouldn't it be obvious we haven't read the whole story? So why can't we just assume such?

[Rob_Olivera]

Maybe, maybe not. I hope I wouldn't respond that way, because the phrase "what I've read" suggests that this is only a statement about what has been in the comic so far and not an assumption about where the story is going. But saying ""they have no redeeming qualities" is different from saying "I don't like what I've read [so far]." To say they have not redeeming qualities (without adding something like "that we've seen so far") implies that we know enough to make a final judgement. And we don't.

By the same token, admittedly, if someone like me says "Azzarello has portrayed Wonder Woman as a hero and hasn't shown her to be corrupt at all," you're entitled to add "...so far."

Hey SLVN, I think you missed my post on another thread regarding a theory I had with Diana's statement after Hephaestus tells her about her brothers. Since you like to guess and theorize so much I was kind of hoping to hear your feedback on it. I won't make you go hunting, so I'll repeat it here:

When he tells her, and she replies "I thought it was divine", I was theorizing that perhaps Diana DOES know about the mating rituals at P.Island, but what she was referring to is the all-female birth rate. I'm guessing (if this is true) that she's not as ""aloof" as everyone is claiming.

[slvn]

Thanks. She seems to have thought that she was the only fatherless Amazon, so I think she knew that Amazons sometimes traveled, met men and had children, but I doubt she thought of it as "raids." She's someone who gets outraged at the thought of even dead people having to do something they don't want to do, so I don't think she could have tolerated a fatal courtship ritual. I guess there's an off chance that she left Paradise Island in protest when she came of age to learn something about this--but I doubt it. For all she knew, it could have been more like "Love Boat" than a pirate raid. Or it could have been a more extreme version of Amish Rumspringa, where adolescents go through a period of relaxed restrictions so they can court. But I wouldn't be surprised if she at some point recriminates with herself for not guessing--though I doubt Azz will have her brood for too long.

[americanwonder]

... When he tells her, and she replies "I thought it was divine", I was theorizing that perhaps Diana DOES know about the mating rituals at P.Island, but what she was referring to is the all-female birth rate. I'm guessing (if this is true) that she's not as ""aloof" as everyone is claiming.

I'm not Slvn, but I think that's a solid possibility.

"But you haven't read the whole story!" Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Rob_Olivera]

I'm not Slvn, but I think that's a solid possibility.

"But you haven't read the whole story!" Sorry, couldn't help myself.

"..... so far!" LOL. It's not the actualy story (although, some parts of it yes.. the story) that I have an issue with. It's the SSSSSSLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW pace of the DCnu52 that I have an issue with. Oh my God! Patience!! Patience!!! Can we get on with this?! I'm not getting any younger! Remember, I'm not the prime demographic for comics! I'd like to see what happens before I die of natural causes! LOL.

[Rob_Olivera]

Thanks. She seems to have thought that she was the only fatherless Amazon, so I think she knew that Amazons sometimes traveled, met men and had children, but I doubt she thought of it as "raids." She's someone who gets outraged at the thought of even dead people having to do something they don't want to do, so I don't think she could have tolerated a fatal courtship ritual. I guess there's an off chance that she left Paradise Island in protest when she came of age to learn something about this--but I doubt it. For all she knew, it could have been more like "Love Boat" than a pirate raid. Or it could have been a more extreme version of Amish Rumspringa, where adolescents go through a period of relaxed restrictions so they can court. But I wouldn't be surprised if she at some point recriminates with herself for not guessing--though I doubt Azz will have her brood for too long.

If she didn't brood over the "alleged" death of her mother, I sincerely doubt she'll brood about this. Wonder Woman kind of reminds me of the movie "The Langoliers". They go erasing the past in 15 minute increments... as if it never happened.

[slvn]

If she didn't brood over the "alleged" death of her mother, I sincerely doubt she'll brood about this. Wonder Woman kind of reminds me of the movie "The Langoliers". They go erasing the past in 15 minute increments... as if it never happened.

She may not have brooded, but she didn't ignore or forget the "death" of her mother. She looked pretty devastated about her mother's "death" in #4, was clearly melancholy about it in 5 when she is talking to Zola and mentions not having her old family, and is outraged about it when confronting Hera in 6. At the end of 7, she seems emotionally exhausted, and I think that this is not just because of the mistake she just made, but because of all her recent emotional turmoil, including the loss of her mother.

[americanwonder]

She may not have brooded, but she didn't ignore or forget the "death" of her mother. She looked pretty devastated about her mother's "death" in #4, was clearly melancholy about it in 5 when she is talking to Zola and mentions not having her old family, and is outraged about it when confronting Hera in 6. At the end of 7, she seems emotionally exhausted, and I think that this is not just because of the mistake she just made, but because of all her recent emotional turmoil, including the loss of her mother.

Yeah, I think Azzarello handled that pretty well.

[Rob_Olivera]

She may not have brooded, but she didn't ignore or forget the "death" of her mother. She looked pretty devastated about her mother's "death" in #4, was clearly melancholy about it in 5 when she is talking to Zola and mentions not having her old family, and is outraged about it when confronting Hera in 6. At the end of 7, she seems emotionally exhausted, and I think that this is not just because of the mistake she just made, but because of all her recent emotional turmoil, including the loss of her mother.

Well I EXPECTED the grieving scene in #4 at the very least. I thought it was slight in passing when confronting Hera, and with Hephaestus as well. It looked like she was having a reaction to what happened with her failed attempted break-out of her brothers. Maybe it's that nice little cup of wine he likes to celebrate with when he takes on a project! [ducks] :)

[Outside_85]

Not all attention is equal. Ask Mel Gibson.

Unfortunately, Mel is a real person who get's work according to how well liked he is. The Amazons on the other hand are fictional beings that dance to the tune of whoever is writing them. Also, how many celebrities are living off all their own 'scandals'?

I'm all for the Amazons doing things. Good things. Things that don't involve murder and human trafficing.

Maybe one day you will get it, but Brian isn't the man with sunshine and flowers.

These guys?

ARG! HATE! Whops no...but it underlines my point, Minion isnt being talked about, therefore he is forgotten. (He's a former Teen Titan btw)

Fan? No. But I also don't think all killing is created equal.

Ok lets try it this way, Thomas Wayne came into Montoya's bar and leaned so hard on Bullock he literally wet himself, Montoya (having more stones the Bullock and being sober) shoves a gun in Thomas faces before leading him into the basement where she keeps a 'new guy' who took a slice of pizza the Joker came in and offered. Pizza was laced with Joker-toxin so the guy is hysterical and tied to a chair, Thomas, without a hint of it bothering him, breaks the guy neck before leaving, telling Montoya to blame him if she needs to.

The Amazons however are seen through what Hephaestus' story so we don't see everything, we see them sneak up on the boat, present themselves, the 'action', spear points, and bodies getting thrown in the water.
The killing is a fundamentally bad thing, I agree, but we don't see how the Amazons react to it. Are they all as stone-cold as Thomas about it, or are they really upset about having to do it? We don't know. Also we don't know if Hephaestus is telling the ultimate truth or it is simply what he thinks happened (if i am not mistaken, none of the Greek Gods were truly omnipresent to know what everyone was doing), reality might have been that the Amazons did their thing and left the sailors in a stupor, unable to remember what just happened.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. ;)

Just my perspective that the New52 brought some really amazing books; Animal Man Swamp Thing, Snyder's Batman and WW. :)

[americanwonder]

... Also, how many celebrities are living off all their own 'scandals'?

lol. And how many have lost jobs, been kicked out of office, blacklisted, etc. due to scandal. Imo, 'scandal' writing is a cheep gimmick.

Maybe one day you will get it, but Brian isn't the man with sunshine and flowers.

lol, I seem to have noticed that in Loveless.

... Also we don't know if Hephaestus is telling the ultimate truth or it is simply what he thinks happened ...

Oh, I dont trust Hephy (though Diana seems a bit too quick to trust him). But that's all we have to go on, so that's what my comments are based on. All subject to change as we get more info, of course.

Just my perspective that the New52 brought some really amazing books; Animal Man Swamp Thing, Snyder's Batman and WW. :)

Glad you are enjoying. I may check on more when they're collected.

[slvn]

Imply is not the same as infer.

Sure. But let's say you've about to be sentenced for a crime. The judge peers down on you and says "You have no redeeming value..." It doesn't take a lot of active inferring to conclude that he's saying he's made up a his mind about you. The implication is clear--in fact, it's more like a direct statement: he thinks he has already has enough evidence to sum you up and pass judgement. His meaning changes a lot, and your hopes rise a little, if he adds "...that I have been able to discover so far." Maybe he has only made a tentative judgement, and he realizes he needs a little more unformation before he can make up his mind.

We all know we haven't read the whole story. Nobody has claimed otherwise. Saying "they have no redeeming qualities" is obviously an opinion and obviously based on what the person has read.

No one's claimed to have read the whole story, but some have basically said they've read enough to conclude that the Amazons--and perhaps the storyline--are irredeemable, at least short of the revelation that they were completely mind controlled or that Heph was completely lying (which they find extremely unlikely). See posts by SteveGus and RedBee Jr. I like those guys too, by the way; I have no problem with them making whatever judgement they want o make--I just disagree and have fun arguing with them.

Sure, you don't have to say "...so far" in every post--but if you don't, occasionally people will think you have made up your mind like some of the other posters. If you want to avoid that, you could always do what I did when I got tired of pointing out that "looks can be deceiving"; just stick it in your sig!

You are entitled to add "so far" to any negative comment, too, right? ;)

I probably SHOULD say "so far" when I say that Wonder Woman remains uncorrupted; Azz is careful not to make any promises in that regard:

"Yeah, she is. I mean, she's going to have to address these things. Of course. Everything's changing around her. Fundamentally, right now, she's still the same person. She's the same icon she's always been. It's just that other things about her are changing."

And when the interview says "her reaction isn't predictible, is it?," Azz says "I hope not." So I have to admit, I'm braced for Wonder Woman to possibly to something in the next few issues that she's goign to need some redemption for. Maybe I'll even get to be outraged; why shouldn't I have some of that fun?

I actually like Azz's point about this: "And if we're surprising you, enjoy it. It's great to get outraged. " I think it's meant to be a bit of a roller coaster ride. Maybe I'm taking it all too calmly so far. But I'm enjoying it anyway.

[Fate's Faith]

Why is it that when someone posts, "I really love this comic," no one replies with "But you haven't read the whole story"?

Yet, if someone were to say, "I don't like what I've read," inevitably we get "Do you know the end? Have you read the whole story?"

I haven't seen anyone say "I don't like what I've read". I've seen phrases such as no redeeming qualities, ruined Wonder Woman, etc. Seriously, with multiple threads complaining about the exact same things is there any chance of one thread where everyone pretends they like what they're reading and we can just focus on what this or that may mean to the rest of the story in the future? I get someone's had their childhood raped. Really, at this point, no one cares anymore.

One thing I wanted to bring up are the rest of the gods specifically the patrons of the Amazons (well, what we used to know as the patrons). I was watching something on television about Medusa and how she came to be. A priestess of Artermis, raped by Poseidon in her temple, yet cursed by Artemis for that rape to become a gorgon. As I was watching it, I thought that sounds exactly like one of Azarello's interpretations. Then it occurred to me that maybe that's why we have a 33 year cycle for the Amazons going abroad. At specific times, the Amazons become killers cursed by one of their goddesses to seek mates then kill those mates. And the male children are taken away not due to hate or dislike but protection. Any male on or near the island would fall prey to when this curse takes hold. I realize this might not fit exactly but I really believe this cycle has some kind of meaning. Maybe its like Pon Farr for Vulcans who have a violent mating ritual on a seven year cycle.