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  1. #181
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Well.. they "raised" her but certainly not in their own image now did they? Diana knows nothing of her people and how they work, apparently. She didn't know about a father, she didn't know about the "raids", she didn't know about the male children... I can not imagine what kind of bullsh** brain washing Hippolyta must've done on her, or what kind of bubble she kept her in... or WHY
    The biggest thing that's bugging me about this is that I can believe Diana didn't know the Amazons murdered their partners and I can believe that Diana was not aware that male babies were born, and then traded, but she had to know that the Amazons went out on mating missions. Otherwise, where the hell did Diana think Amazon babies come from? If I were the interviewer the first thing I would ahve asked Azzarello would ahve been: "So, Hippolyta never explained the birds and the bees to Diana?"

  2. #182
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    The biggest thing that's bugging me about this is that I can believe Diana didn't know the Amazons murdered their partners and I can believe that Diana was not aware that male babies were born, and then traded, but she had to know that the Amazons went out on mating missions. Otherwise, where the hell did Diana think Amazon babies come from? If I were the interviewer the first thing I would ahve asked Azzarello would ahve been: "So, Hippolyta never explained the birds and the bees to Diana?"
    ... and after reading several interviews with him, would you have expected a concrete answer from him?

  3. #183
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    "They can be a great people, Kal El, they wish to be .They only lack the light to show them the way. For this reason, their capacity for good, I sent them my only son".
    In the movie, Jor El have at least as much to do with Superman being Superman than Jon Kent. Pa suggested he was here for a reason. Jor El gave him that reason. Clark became Superman after a special voyage accros time and space with the spirit of his Kryptonian dad.
    Honestly, the only time Superman is putting Pa Kent's advice above Jor El's is when Lois dies.
    You missed my point. It isn't what Jonathan Kent said. It was the obvious love he showed Clark. The caring. Christopher Reeve said that they key to the way he played Superman was that he was a "friend." And he learned how to be a friend because of his relationship with Jonathan and Martha.

    And Yes, the saving of Lois's life is the crucial element in becoming Superman. Remember what else Jor-el tells him? "It is forbidden to interfere with human history." But he does so, leaving the Kryptonian father behind him and embracing the Earth and becoming his own man.

  4. #184
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    The biggest thing that's bugging me about this is that I can believe Diana didn't know the Amazons murdered their partners and I can believe that Diana was not aware that male babies were born, and then traded, but she had to know that the Amazons went out on mating missions. Otherwise, where the hell did Diana think Amazon babies come from? If I were the interviewer the first thing I would ahve asked Azzarello would ahve been: "So, Hippolyta never explained the birds and the bees to Diana?"
    Unless we don't know the full story. I mean, it's possible (for instance) something made them stop going after male to mate with them and then kill them. Then, it makes sense not to tell Diana about it.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  5. #185
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    You missed my point. It isn't what Jonathan Kent said. It was the obvious love he showed Clark. The caring. Christopher Reeve said that they key to the way he played Superman was that he was a "friend." And he learned how to be a friend because of his relationship with Jonathan and Martha.

    And Yes, the saving of Lois's life is the crucial element in becoming Superman. Remember what else Jor-el tells him? "It is forbidden to interfere with human history." But he does so, leaving the Kryptonian father behind him and embracing the Earth and becoming his own man.
    I never said Pa Kent never had an influence. I was responding to someone saying him becoming a superhero has nothing to do with Krypton, but just with the Kent. And I said "not always true". Both have their influence in that case. Generally, I split it as this: the Kent (in the movie) turned him into a good man, and Jor El turned him into Superman.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #186
    Did You See Her West Mantooth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -I don't say his help means anything or not (I would say every time he saved someone's life , or prevented an earthquake, it did but whatever). I say he never tried to pretend to teach people a foreign way without explaining what it's all about.
    But the same could be said about Wonder Woman? How is she promoting peace and equality by punching the bad guy of the week. That's my question. What is this Amazonian way she's supposed to promote? I can't see any specific roadmap, and yet, it's supposed to be important somehow.
    Funny thing, Marston's Wonder Woman didn't leave Paradise island to preach "the Amazonian Ways". She left to help fighting nazis. I don't know when it became her motivation for leaving.
    I'm saying Superman was originally meant to help the oppressed. Depression era stuff. He didn't become a cop cause he didn't want to play by the rules. He bust skulls. Once the Depression ended, his mission lost it's defined nature and became an all-over larger thing. Same as WW.

    yeah, she did have a roadmap originally. What do you think Marston's "Loving submission" was? That was the precursor to "Amazon Ways." The same way "Champion of the oppressed" was the precursor the "Truth and Justice, and the American Way"

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Huh, sorry to believe that a society based on forbiding a specific kind of people to set foot on their lands isn't exactly the paradigm of equality. Doesn't mean they don't have qualities, but equality isn't one of them. Inequality is when a specific group of people has more privileges than another. And in my book, reserving the entire land to one kind of people (here, women) is pretty high on the list of privilege. But sure, i don't what equality is about and I'm a European colonialist. You have another good one like that, genius?
    So I guess nuns don't understand desire unless they've actually had sex?

    Wasn't calling you a colonialist, I'm saying the idea that the simply having the absence of something being equated with not understanding is stupid.
    No clothing= not civilized. Nope.
    clothing= civilized. Nope.
    Men=equality. No that's not true.

    The way you're projecting is like saying that if aliens ever arrived, because we've never seen an alien before, we'd wouldn't have anything to teach them or understand them simply as another intelligent lifeform in the universe. Based simply on having no prior connection to them. False, imo.

    Equality based on something other than gender like being neighbors, humans, or friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -As I said, we don't know. We don't know since when Hypolita is the queen for example. We don't know if she isn't the one who tried to fight back a stupid tradition and had to compromize (a very common situation for a King to try to change some stupid tradition, but to be unable to do so), ending with her making a deal with Hephaesteus to save the boys. We don't know whether or not her meeting with Zeus opened her eyes on an injustice perpetruated by tradition. We don't know if all this is or not some kind of thing forced upon them by Aphrodite or some other god. We don't know the circumstances.
    I feel like these are the same hopes expressed when the "their stink" comments were made. That the Amazons were men haters and people tried to say that it was just some intimidation technique or that the Amazons were the barbarians they were being presented as. Then issue 8's murdering Amazons came and we're still getting this, there is some rationality to their behavior.

    Instead of just realizing their barbarians who hate men. I feel like Homer and Bart watching the pig fly, "It's still good, it's just a little slimey, It's still good."
    "It's gone, dad."

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    When i saw Hypolita, I saw a noble Queen, with devoted subjects, a woman who cared about her daughter, who made mistakes, but was repentant of those she made (at least those we knew of). I don't know if she's talked specifically about compasison regardless of the gender , but I can very well see her talking about compassion in general (not knowing her daughter will leave to Man's World). I really don't think she had a bad portrayal. As I said, there is more to the story and it will come to an explanation at some point. For now, we can't say we know.
    I don't know who this Hippolyta is. This a reboot now so any story of her noble behavior is just conjecture.

    I saw a similar woman and her devoted subjects. A person who had fallen in love with the wrong man and was willing to pay for it.

    Then I saw those devoted subjects kill innocent men and sell their children into slavery for being a different gender. The same way their god Hera had done to Haphestus for just being different. I also saw those same devoted subjects mock a little girl as "Clay" for being naive and different(though not really since they're all born of some dude). I saw a young woman warned about telling these devoted subjects she enjoyed sex with a man I guess cause procreation is the only reason to bang. Anything else is just guy stink.

    I've yet to see either of these people sacrifice themselves to save others the way you would think someone WW would have been raised around. The one risking her life for an unborn baby/mother regardless of the gender when she didn't have to.
    Greg Rucka is a strong independent black woman who don't need no man.-LETO

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    The biggest thing that's bugging me about this is that I can believe Diana didn't know the Amazons murdered their partners and I can believe that Diana was not aware that male babies were born, and then traded, but she had to know that the Amazons went out on mating missions. Otherwise, where the hell did Diana think Amazon babies come from? If I were the interviewer the first thing I would ahve asked Azzarello would ahve been: "So, Hippolyta never explained the birds and the bees to Diana?"
    I assume she did know that the Amazons at some point would go out and "mate"--after all, she seems to have thought that she was the only one without a biological father. But I imagine she thought the Amazons' time off the island was more like the Love Boat and less like Captain Hook.

  8. #188
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I assume she did know that the Amazons at some point would go out and "mate"--after all, she seems to have thought that she was the only one without a biological father. But I imagine she thought the Amazons' time off the island was more like the Love Boat and less like Captain Hook.

    OR......

    Maybe when she said "I thought it was divine" maybe she really meant the fact that only "girls" were born instead of a mix, but she didn't know about the selling part and the male births. Maybe she did know about the actual raids and why they happened....(?)



  9. #189
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by West Mantooth View Post
    I'm saying Superman was originally meant to help the oppressed. Depression era stuff. He didn't become a cop cause he didn't want to play by the rules. He bust skulls. Once the Depression ended, his mission lost it's defined nature and became an all-over larger thing. Same as WW.

    yeah, she did have a roadmap originally. What do you think Marston's "Loving submission" was? That was the precursor to "Amazon Ways." The same way "Champion of the oppressed" was the precursor the "Truth and Justice, and the American Way"



    So I guess nuns don't understand desire unless they've actually had sex?

    Wasn't calling you a colonialist, I'm saying the idea that the simply having the absence of something being equated with not understanding is stupid.
    No clothing= not civilized. Nope.
    clothing= civilized. Nope.
    Men=equality. No that's not true.

    The way you're projecting is like saying that if aliens ever arrived, because we've never seen an alien before, we'd wouldn't have anything to teach them or understand them simply as another intelligent lifeform in the universe. Based simply on having no prior connection to them. False, imo.

    Equality based on something other than gender like being neighbors, humans, or friends.



    I feel like these are the same hopes expressed when the "their stink" comments were made. That the Amazons were men haters and people tried to say that it was just some intimidation technique or that the Amazons were the barbarians they were being presented as. Then issue 8's murdering Amazons came and we're still getting this, there is some rationality to their behavior.

    Instead of just realizing their barbarians who hate men. I feel like Homer and Bart watching the pig fly, "It's still good, it's just a little slimey, It's still good."
    "It's gone, dad."



    I don't know who this Hippolyta is. This a reboot now so any story of her noble behavior is just conjecture.

    I saw a similar woman and her devoted subjects. A person who had fallen in love with the wrong man and was willing to pay for it.

    Then I saw those devoted subjects kill innocent men and sell their children into slavery for being a different gender. The same way their god Hera had done to Haphestus for just being different. I also saw those same devoted subjects mock a little girl as "Clay" for being naive and different(though not really since they're all born of some dude). I saw a young woman warned about telling these devoted subjects she enjoyed sex with a man I guess cause procreation is the only reason to bang. Anything else is just guy stink.

    I've yet to see either of these people sacrifice themselves to save others the way you would think someone WW would have been raised around. The one risking her life for an unborn baby/mother regardless of the gender when she didn't have to.
    -And I'm saying this has no bearing with the discussion, if only because "Truth, Justice and the American Way" was never used to describe the anti socialist Superman. It has never been his roadmap. And maybe "The Amazonian Ways" never have been as well. But it's supposed to mean something, and we never knew what.

    - Funny you're using against me the idea of calling "uncivilized" and making a moral judgement on a culture that isn't acting according to my moral standards when you are clearly doing the same to the new Amazons. But nice to see you totally misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about "civilized/uncivilized". I'm talking about "equality/inequality". I never said "Men= equality", I'm saying "not allowing men to leave with women on their society=a society clearly not based on equality"(since it's based on a difference of treatment between men and women). And as such, the idea of Amazons fighting FOR an equality they are not applying (since that's your point) striked me as a bit ridiculous, when you could have said they were fighting to improve the conditions of women or something. And I didn't even talk about sex and desire. Amazons may teach us some useful things, not doubt about it. But equality? I would laugh at them. They have no notion of equality. They are a monarchy (thus a civilization based of an inequality of classes) that excludes men (thus based of an inequality of sexes). They are as far from an equal society that I could imagine one.

    - That's point of admitting we don't know. I'm not saying there is anything. But unlike you , I'm not assuming there isn't. Because I have no way of knowing that. They're manhaters all right. Doesn't mean there is nothing to justify it, or to explain it.

    - That's the one of the page. You just have to understand that being judgemental doesn't allow you to see the whole picture. We don't know the specifics of the deal with Hephaesteus, so, just like Diana, you are assuming they are slaves, when they are happy with their fates. And, most of all, we don't know how Hypolita stands with all of it. You assume that, because she's a Queen, she has absolute control over everything that's going on with her people. That's not always true (well, in the real world, this has never been true, but in comic it depends). Religious groups can play a factor. Political groups can as well. We have no idea of what's going on at this point, you just think you do. As for the Clay thing, what, we're supposed to be repulsed by children calling mean names to someone who's different?
    And they put their life on the line to save their Queen. So, at the very least, they are compassionate about members of their communauty, or other women.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  10. #190
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    ... and after reading several interviews with him, would you have expected a concrete answer from him?
    Ha, no I would expect a grunt or a vaguely sarcastic reply that wouldn't at all answer my question. I would ahve felt better for asking it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I assume she did know that the Amazons at some point would go out and "mate"--after all, she seems to have thought that she was the only one without a biological father. But I imagine she thought the Amazons' time off the island was more like the Love Boat and less like Captain Hook.
    Which is sort of my point, she had to know at least the Amazons occasionaly went off for teh sex. But given how the Amazons speak about men, she must be horrendously naive to think that they just leave those dudes in a happy state.

    The more I think about this, the more impatient I am for answers...

  11. #191

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    Lots of interesting thoughts. Kudos.

    Some of my own (though perhaps not as interesting):

    Superman's Socialization - Socialization does not come from a few letters from a dead father (but apparently mom didn't have as much time to write, just as Bruce's mom never seems to do much for him). Said dad can centainly inform and inspire to greatness. But socialization comes from the day-to-day living, being raised in an environment and it's values. Kal was not raised by Kryptonians.

    They Raised Diana - Did they? Or did they just send her to fight camp? Seriously, aside from the kung fu grip action, what values do they share? She doesn't even know about core believes and actions (apparently) central to them. Like I asked before, if my white parents raise me among all whites but never mention they grossly mistreat other races, would we assume my parents went out of their way to teach me to be nice to all races? Would we praise me for over-coming something I didn't know about in the first place? This Diana doesn't feel like she was by these Amazons, imo.

    "Archaic" - I could be wrong, but I did not read this as Diana accepting her Amazon heritage. I read this as acknowledgement that she doesn't know how to be any thing else. And not in a positive way.

    In/Equality - Too many people seem to get too caught up in the outside appearance - the fact that the Amazons are women. WW and the Amazons have never advocated that all men and women be seperated. Catholic priests don't tell everyone to become a priest. Buddhist monks don't tell everyone to become a monk. And teachers don't tell all their students to become teachers (unless it's a class on teaching, I suppose).

    That's just how they've chosen to live to pursue their own life; that's not the message at the heart of it. "But men can't go there!" So?* I can't go to any country just because I want to; I need a visa, permission to abide by their laws. I also can't go where ever I want in the Vatican, or the White House, or mosqus in Mecca, etc. And I doubt an OB/GYN would take me as a patient. Those shifty OB/GYNs don't take many male patients, but their focus on women doesn't automatically make them sexist man-haters, does it?

    eta: *It's not like the Amazons let lots of outside women come visit either.

    Peace and Opportunity - That's the message. Women, given the opportunity, can be wonderful. That's it really. It's not a seperation issue, it's an issue of opportunity. I can look at President Obama and see a tremendous example of a good man, more importantly, a good person. It doesn't matter than he's not the same race and I am, right? Why should the Amazons' sex really matter? They could still be great examples of one what can achieve, both individually and collectively, can they not? All without wanting to kill anyone.

    "But they are warriors!" Train to be prepared to fight doesn't mean they're looking for a fight. Does anyone think the Shaolin monks are planning an invasion? The pursuit of individual and collective mastery is not a declaration of war against others. Sure, they can fight. They are ready to defend themselves. But they weren't looking for conflict. They know peace needs to be defended, and that peace is much more than just the absence of war.

    Admittedly, this is not how they've always been written. Writers need drama, and companies need to sell comics. So, we get a lot of spectacle, and sometimes it's by folks that don't seem to connect to the characters at all. But, it is the core, and what I believe the Amazons could be.

    Azzarello's Amazons are lacking (to say the least), as they've been depicted thus far. He took WW's background, a positive message about women (and humans in general), and inverted it. Here, much of WW's background (though not necessarily WW) is much more of a male-centric myth (ie, stories men would tell about women).
    Last edited by americanwonder; 04-20-2012 at 03:05 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  12. #192
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Lots of interesting thoughts. Kudos.

    Some of my own (though perhaps not as interesting):

    In/Equality - Too many people seem to get too caught up in the outside appearance - the fact that the Amazons are women. WW and the Amazons have never advocated that all men and women be seperated. Catholic priests don't tell everyone to become a priest. Buddhist monks don't tell everyone to become a monk. And teachers don't tell all their students to become teachers (unless it's a class I teaching, I suppose).

    That's just how they've chosen to live to pursue their own life; that's not the message at the heart of it. "But men can't go there!" So?* I can't go to any country just because I want to; I need a visa, permission to abide by their laws. I also can't go where ever I want in the Vatican, or the White House, or mosqus in Mecca, etc. And I doubt an OB/GYN would take me as a patient. Those shifty OB/BYNs don't take many male patients, but their focus on women doesn't automatically make them sexist man-haters, does it?

    eta: *It's not like the Amazons let lots of outside women come visit either.
    Just answering this one because it's getting late in my part of the world.
    I think you are missing my point. Paradise Island is a foreign country. And this country is forbidden to a large part of the human population. Was South Africa an equalitarian country when black people weren't allowed live in the same place as white men? Was the America from the 50's an equalitarian place when black people weren't allowed to live in the same neighbourhood than the whites? The answer is no. Because equalitarism is about people having the same rights. Amazons may not preach segregation between men and women, but they are applying it. Men don't have the same rights as women, since they don't even have the right to be in the country in the first place. Therefore, I think the idea they stand for equality between the sexes to be an internal incoherence of the strip at the very best. It's not about not being able to go somewhere because you don't have the specific authority to be there (the White House), or because of a religious belief (A church for a non Christian....and actually I can go to a Church while i'm atheist. I just can't during the prayers). It's an entire country, a separate civilization that is preventing any contact with a specific population. It's one thing to let them live as they see fit (which I'm all for), but they don't have any authority to talk about an equality between sexes they aren't applying.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    ...It's an entire country, a separate civilization that is preventing any contact with a specific population...
    They don't let anyone from the outside in; women from the outside don't have the right to go their either. No one does. It's an entire country preventing all from coming. There is not an open door for women from our world. Why is that so hard to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    ... but they don't have any authority to talk ...
    Who grants this authority to talk? ;)
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  14. #194
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    They don't let anyone from the outside in; women from the outside don't have the right to go their either. No one does. It's an entire country preventing all from coming. There is not an open door for women from our world. Why is that so hard to see?



    Who grants this authority to talk? ;)
    -Because that's not exactly true. Women have been accepted on Paradise island before, if partly thanks to Wonder Woman. The reformed villain Baronness (Paula Von Gunther, an ex nazi of all people) for example, and her henchmen, were allowed to live on Paradise Island. And because the catchphrase is "No man is allowed to set foot on Paradise Island", not "no one is allowed to".

    -All right, let me clarify. They can talk about equality all they want, but the sane response would be "A speech about equality and relationships between the sexes from an all women monarchy? Really?", then have a good laugh and leave the room with this wonderful sensation that everything is possible these days, even the absurd.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  15. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Because that's not exactly true. Women have been accepted on Paradise island before, if partly thanks to Wonder Woman. The reformed villain Baronness (Paula Von Gunther, an ex nazi of all people) for example, and her henchmen, were allowed to live on Paradise Island. And because the catchphrase is "No man is allowed to set foot on Paradise Island", not "no one is allowed to".
    And men have been accepted on the island before, too (Hi Steve). They've made exceptions for both. But the general rule is still "no one allowed." Also, the US gov. wouldn't lock me up in a women's prison, right? Hospitals often have a women's ward. Monks group together. I'm not even supposed to go in the bathroom for the opposite sex. Does that automatically mean they hate one sex or the other? It's all hyper-symplistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -All right, let me clarify. They can talk about equality all they want, but the sane response would be "A speech about equality and relationships between the sexes from an all women monarchy? Really?", then have a good laugh and leave the room with this wonderful sensation that everything is possible these days, even the absurd.
    So a priest can't ever say anything informative about marriage? A doctor would be laughed at if he hasn't actually had the disease? I wasn't raised in China so I can't possibly have anything to say to them that isn't absurd?

    Besides, the focus isn't a marriage clinic "this is how men and women get along;" it's "this is how people get along and what you can accomplish if you stop fighting amongst yourselves."
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

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