'Rama Interview: Brian Azzarello on WW

[BeccaBlast]

its actual the other way around; Germans are actually Scandinavian. the earliest recorded inhabitants of Germany were actually celtic, and slowly they were encroached upon during later Roman times, replacing them completely.

So, by your logic, the Teutons and Franks (the Germanic tribe that pushed the Celts into Brittany) were Scandinavian -- which means the Franks you call barbarians are the same nation you give credit for civilizing the Irish, Scots and English (also Germanic in large part) at the point of a sword? Yeah go peddle that baggage somewhere else; it's got WAY too many unpleasant ramifications.

[Reginleif]

So, by your logic, the Teutons and Franks (the Germanic tribe that pushed the Celts into Brittany) were Scandinavian -- which means the Franks you call barbarians are the same nation you give credit for civilizing the Irish, Scots and English (also Germanic in large part) at the point of a sword? Yeah go peddle that baggage somewhere else; it's got WAY too many unpleasant ramifications.

Teutons were actually Celtic, so the idea of a Teutonic as being a representative of a greater Germanic culture is flawed. However Charlse, though he inherited a frankish state, he tried to model it after the Roman empire.

[americanwonder]

Um, I'm pretty sure the topic isn't "Insights into European History" - or am I in the wrong room again? ;)

At least tell me the Teutons wore star-spangled underpants or something.

[Javier Velasco]

americanwonder is correct.

Let's steer this back to Wonder Woman and leave "insights into European History" to another discussion group. :)

But thank you for the illumination.

[majormcmeat]

Not killing. Millions of people do it (or don't do it?) every day.

But how do they preserve their way of life and continue to exist as a people?

Didn't say other genres couldn't be used.

You complained about it being dark.

Did you see my other question above? Would the Amazons not being sex pirates really ruin this story for you?

No, but it would negatively effect the story and Wonder Woman's characterization therein.

Could. I'm all for Thomas Wayne as the real murderer of Martha. He's way too squeeky clean. And yet, people still find Superman and Batman interesting without digging up dirt in their parents' closets? How can that be?

Wonder Woman can be interesting without the dark background, but she's also interesting with it and that's the story being told right now.

[SteveGus]

Wonder Woman can be interesting without the dark background, but she's also interesting with it and that's the story being told right now.

The problem is that the dark background is also a part of the nuDC reboot.

[majormcmeat]

The problem is that the dark background is also a part of the nuDC reboot.

So? If they ever want to change it back, they can and will. It's comics.

[fanboiii]

The problem is that the dark background is also a part of the nuDC reboot.

It's not a problem, it's a solution. Adding realism only seems dark because things were so cliche and trite before, as Azarello put it "too clean".

[Wonder39]

With all of this talk about "perfection" vs "dirty barbarians"

... has anyone thought about the fact that DESPITE the "perfection" of the Amazon nation, Diana-- in seeing Steve Trevor and falling in love (yes, I'm going all pre Crisis) recognizes that there is something missing?

Plus, can I just say it's friggin fantasy here.... I don't see why we can't have an all female utopia without everyone feeling threatened by the concept, or forcing some sense of "reality" on it because it's just too hard to suspend your disbelief for five minutes in a world where folks fly and a guy dressed up as a rodent somehow is able to be an amazing fighter without his cape or cowl getting in the way....

I say we all need to relax a bit ^_^

Matt

[slvn]

I don't see why we can't have an all female utopia without everyone feeling threatened by the concept, or forcing some sense of "reality" on it because it's just too hard to suspend your disbelief for five minutes in a world where folks fly and a guy dressed up as a rodent somehow is able to be an amazing fighter without his cape or cowl getting in the way....

I don't feel threatened by it, but I'm fine with a different version too. It's something new. Relax and enjoy the story; your old comics will still be there.

[sberg1]

Would the Amazons not being sex pirates really ruin this story for you?

I hate that you're trying to demean this plot point by labeling them "sex pirates" when clearly there is more to it than that but to answer your question: while it wouldn't ruin the story it would certainly take away a developing layer of story, motivation and pathos for Diana. The story is richer and more layered and fully realized and causes an even more developed character motivation for her.

So no, while taking out wouldn't make me hate the story it would also exclude the continued development of her heroic pathos, which to me, is worse than anything.

[americanwonder]

You complained about it being dark.

My complaint is the "dirt" on the Amazons, not that the general story is dark. "The Hiketeia" is very much a Greek tragedy type of story (some may say it's pretty dark), and it's my among favorite WW stories. I fine with the general tone of the story.

Also, my complaint about the Amazons is based on their depiction thus far. I do not really trust Hephy, nor think his account is 100% truth. I don't doubt the real possibility that Azzarello has something up his sleeve. I'm just commenting on the story we have thus far, leaving room to change my opinion as the story unfolds.

It's not a problem, it's a solution. Adding realism only seems dark because things were so cliche and trite before, as Azarello put it "too clean".

I love the "realism" arguement. WW just went to the Underworld and made a deal with Hades, trading 'love guns' for a woman pregnant with Zeus' kid, and you want "realism"? Because the story is just too unbelievable if the Amazons aren't sex pirates?

americanwonder is correct.

Can I put this in my sig?

[Mr. Holmes]

Plus, can I just say it's friggin fantasy here.... I don't see why we can't have an all female utopia without everyone feeling threatened by the concept, or forcing some sense of "reality" on it because it's just too hard to suspend your disbelief for five minutes in a world where folks fly and a guy dressed up as a rodent somehow is able to be an amazing fighter without his cape or cowl getting in the way....

The issue isn't about it being too unrealistic. It's that it's not interesting.

[americanwonder]

I hate that you're trying to demean this plot point by labeling them "sex pirates" ...

It's not my label. Got a better phrase we can use?

... when clearly there is more to it than that ...

What more is there in the story we have thus far?

... while it wouldn't ruin the story it would certainly take away a developing layer of story, motivation and pathos for Diana. The story is richer and more layered and fully realized and causes an even more developed character motivation for her...

I do not see layers, especially in these Amazons. I see simplistic, cliche and trite (to put it as nice as I can). Note: This does not apply to the whole story, just the depiction of the Amazons thus far.

As for Diana, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man (all pretty successful characters) all manage to have interesting stories without throwing dirt on mom and dad, no?

[americanwonder]

The issue isn't about it being too unrealistic. It's that it's not interesting.

Interesting is not an objective term. I don't find these Amazons interesting.