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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Except that WW's world is NOT Paradise Island. Paradise Island is supposed to be WW's backstory. If someone wants to make WW's world "interesting" all they need to do is keep her off the island and do her superheroics in the Patrirach's Word. We all know that is imperfect, and there for "interestng". So there is no real need to mess with the Amazons, unless all you want to do is tell stories about the Amazons.
    ^This. Very well said, Javier. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I think, in the end, it's more a matter of perception of the Amazons than an actual perfection...
    Misperception, perhaps? ;) I get what you're saying Auguste; you make a strong arguement. But, I'd chalk much of that up to lackluster (or really crappy) writing*. Few, imo, have really done a good job with the Amazons. :( And I don't count Azzarello among the few; his dirtified Amazons are very one dimentional, at best, thus far. He may complain that 'perfect' is boring (even if it is inacurate), but his take is arguably just as simplistic (thus far), is it not?

    And if we're rewriting history, picking and chosing and altering continuity as we go, why stick to the lackluster parts? Why not toss them and/or make them shine more brightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Skeletons in the closet, ... they appear perfect from a distance until you get close enough to see the ugly details of their past.
    There are only as many skeletons, as many ugly details, as writers (apparently) feel the need to put them there. To me, this actually speaks to a lack of/limited imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    He did turn Martha Wayne into the Joker and made Thomas into an even more psychotic Batman than Bruce has ever been in the Flashpoint tie-in.
    That don't count; it was a twisted world that has no real bearing on Batman's continuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Actually I have hard time remembering anytime when Ma and Pa Kent weren't the ideal parents.
    So where's the outcry to see their skeletons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Both means that things are undone.
    True, there is more than one way to undue something. This one by Azzarello is a poor one, imo.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 04-19-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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  2. #17
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Oh man... Thomasbats... He was so cool!

  3. #18
    Mark Millar Licks Goats BeccaBlast's Avatar
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    Unless I'm missing something, wasn't the whole point of the Flashpoint "world" is that it had gone horribly wrong in all senses? "What have you done to the world, Thawne?" "I haven't done a thing, that's they joy of it! The world is being torn apart by YOUR friends, Barry Allen; and it's all YOUR fault!"

    It's why I never bought the "Flashpoint Diana is a grotesque insult" line -- she was SUPPOSED to be! So if Batman: Knight of Vengeance turns Thomas into a brutal vigilante and Martha into the Joker because young Bruce gets killed by a criminal; well, I don't buy that as Azzarello's take on Batman -- more like his phenomenal version on what Batman SHOULDN'T be. It certainly never was presented as a restructuring of Batman, just one hell of a vamp on the theme.

    (And whatever happened to the idea that Bruce and Barry were the only ones aware that the world used to be so different? Barry because of his own timeline and Bruce because of the letter from his "dad")
    Some days a girl wants to ride ponies. Some days a girl wants to punch tanks. Today ... is a tank day.

  4. #19
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    So where's the outcry to see their skeletons?
    The difference is that the Kents were never preachy and they didnt give long lectures about how their society was better, and women this and women that. They were just a pair of loving parents who supported their son Superman.

    Also, just because the Amazons are much more "grey" now, and with skeletons in their closet, it doesnt mean that we cant look up to them. People look up to ancient greeks and romans dont they? Need i remind everyone that Romans built aqueducts, highways and monuments, conquered the mediterranean but on the other hand slaughtered entire cities and fed people to lions for entertainment?

    It's the same with the Amazons. As Hippolyta showed, they have honour and dignity, they're just an ancient civilization with ancient customs. So they arent evil, and i'm sure there's more good stuff to them which we'll see when they come back. Adding a little black and grey to them only makes them more believable, more relevant and more cool.

    Sex pirate Amazons is kind of awesome if you ask me. If they were a new race and not everyone's beloved perfect amazons, everyone would love them and think they're badasses.

  5. #20
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post



    Misperception, perhaps? ;) I get what you're saying Auguste; you make a strong arguement. But, I'd chalk much of that up to lackluster (or really crappy) writing*. Few, imo, have really done a good job with the Amazons. :( And I don't count Azzarello among the few; his dirtified Amazons are very one dimentional, at best, thus far. He may complain that 'perfect' is boring (even if it is inacurate), but his take is arguably just as simplistic (thus far), is it not?

    And if we're rewriting history, picking and chosing and altering continuity as we go, why stick to the lackluster parts? Why not toss them and/or make them shine more brightly? .
    Ho I'm not saying it's a warranted perception (am I using the right word here?). And I agree it has a lot to do with writing. But I don't think you can put every thing on the writing. I mean, bad runs appear for every character, but it seems very hard for writers to get a good gasp on the Amazons. I think they are a hard concept to master. Make them completely perfect and then, well, it's hard to put them on the book, because they are perfect yet are doing nothing to help others like heroes would do. They are perfect and passive and thus, you can't do much with them, appart from a motivationnal speach now and then from Hypolita. If you give them flaws, it contradicts the whole idea of them bringing their peaceful solutions to Man's world via Wonder Woman. It's kind of a lose lose situation, and I can totally see why writers have a hard time finding their mojo on this one. It would be as if Krypton never exploded, and Earth would regulary interact with these perfect superscientists that doesn't seem to have much in term of characterization other than "perfect people from a perfect place". Krypton works well because it's no more, it's a paradise lost.
    And I actually understand very well why Azzarelo's take on them is a problem for a lot of fans. Back in the issue 7 thread, I basically said "I don't really care because I don't really like them in the first place, but I can perfectly see why people would be outraged by this".
    Honestly, if I had to reinvent Wonder Woman for a reboot, I would take the coward way and I would invent some rule that prevent Paradise Island from interacting with the rest of the world (like, they don't live in the same "magical dimension" or something) appart from one day every year, so I wouldn't put them completely out of the picture while keeping them away enough so that a simple "perfect magical women" as a characterisation would be enough. Because in the end, I think it's overexposure that put the Amazons where they were (and are now I guess).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #21
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Even better, he realizes everybody loves Strife. Yeyeyeyeye.
    Even I like Strife. Wonder Woman needs a Joker of her own.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #22
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    The difference is that the Kents were never preachy and they didnt give long lectures about how their society was better, and women this and women that. They were just a pair of loving parents who supported their son Superman.

    Also, just because the Amazons are much more "grey" now, and with skeletons in their closet, it doesnt mean that we cant look up to them. People look up to ancient greeks and romans dont they? Need i remind everyone that Romans built aqueducts, highways and monuments, conquered the mediterranean but on the other hand slaughtered entire cities and fed people to lions for entertainment?

    It's the same with the Amazons. As Hippolyta showed, they have honour and dignity, they're just an ancient civilization with ancient customs. So they arent evil, and i'm sure there's more good stuff to them which we'll see when they come back. Adding a little black and grey to them only makes them more believable, more relevant and more cool.

    Sex pirate Amazons is kind of awesome if you ask me. If they were a new race and not everyone's beloved perfect amazons, everyone would love them and think they're badasses.
    I beg to differ.

    I don't think there has been anyone *more* preachy than the Kents and their 'we're the perfect, loving, middle American parents - it's all about truth, justice and apple pie!" They became, imo, a parody of the 1950s nuclear family, adopting, at various times, Kara, Conner and Krypto (because no one can care for a Kryptonian dog better than an elderly farming couple)

    But rather than 'dirty them up a bit', DC opted to just kill them off.

    And it's one thing to take the shine off of a supposedly-perfect society and another to drag it through the mud and stomp on it so much that it's not even remotely recognizable. I have yet to see anything likeable, respectable or 'shiny' about the Amazons. Azzarello took it to a ridiculous extreme. They aren't a flawed utopian society - they're a barbaric backwards bunch of murderers (so far).

    I'm patiently waiting for there to be something at all that's worth admiring about these new Amazons, but my patience is running thin :(

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    The difference is that the Kents were never preachy and they didnt give long lectures about how their society was better, and women this and women that. They were just a pair of loving parents who supported their son Superman.
    Superman is the greatest of the greatest heroes. The pinnacle of greatness. And where does his moral center come from? Sorry, but I'm with Gaelforce on this one; Ma and Pa are very preachy in their own apple-pie Americana way (and I like apple-pie Americana). Alfred is too. Still, if the 'problem' is preaching, can't they curtail the preaching without harming any babies in the process?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    ... Also, just because the Amazons are much more "grey" now, ...
    For them to be "grey," there has to be some white. I don't see any white thus far. They exist to 'seduce' men and kill half the kids. Sex and violence. That's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    ... Adding a little black and grey to them only makes them more believable, more relevant and more cool.
    They can only be believable, relevant and cool if they kill some kids?

    Let me turn this a little: do you like Zola and Lennox? Where's their dirt? Do they need to kill some babies to be believable, relevant and cool?

    In short, no, not everyone thinks sex pirate Amazons is a good idea. It's a simplistic and trite depiction, not to mention, very unimaginative.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 04-19-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    For them to be "grey," there has to be some white. I don't see any white thus far. They exist to 'seduce' men and kill half the kids. Sex and violence. That's it.
    You're right. They should instead abandon their entire way of life or simply die off.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Ho I'm not saying it's a warranted perception (am I using the right word here?).
    Yes, it's the right word. You write in English very well. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    ... Make them completely perfect and then, well, it's hard to put them on the book, because they are perfect yet are doing nothing to help others like heroes would do...
    I don't think they need to be either "completely perfect" or "man-hating, child killers." There's a lot of room in between. Just find something interesting for them to do, like fight beasts at Doom's Doorway, travel through the mythical realms, and basically play at being the Jedi of the DCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    ... If you give them flaws, it contradicts the whole idea of them bringing their peaceful solutions to Man's world via Wonder Woman...
    Many great people have had flaws. All of them, in fact. Yet, we still find them admirable. Even interesting. I think the Amazons can have flaws, and still be admirable, and even greater than any other known society. All without being the trite 'man-hating, baby killers.' A little imagination goes a long way on this. Or, like Javier said above, just don't write them and focus on Diana in our world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Honestly, if I had to reinvent Wonder Woman for a reboot, I would take the coward way and I would invent some rule that prevent Paradise Island from interacting with the rest of the world (like, they don't live in the same "magical dimension" or something) appart from one day every year, so I wouldn't put them completely out of the picture while keeping them away enough so that a simple "perfect magical women" as a characterisation would be enough. Because in the end, I think it's overexposure that put the Amazons where they were (and are now I guess).
    I wouldn't say that's the coward's way at all. I like it. Imagination without dirt and grime.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by majormcmeat View Post
    You're right. They should instead abandon their entire way of life or simply die off.
    Because those are the only options for this fictional world?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Because those are the only options for this fictional world?
    Well what would you have them do? How else are they supposed to continue as a people?


    It just seems laughable to me that we should impose our morality on an ancient, supernatural, fictional society.

  13. #28
    The Magnificent Bastard sberg1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    For them to be "grey," there has to be some white. I don't see any white thus far. They exist to 'seduce' men and kill half the kids. Sex and violence. That's it.
    I would think the "white" would be them raising Diana, the woman who has become Wonder Woman, one of the greatest heroes and defenders of truth and justice on the planet.
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  14. #29
    Universal Turing machine cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    In short, no, not everyone thinks sex pirate Amazons is a good idea. It's a simplistic and trite depiction, not to mention, very unimaginative.
    Right, because the previous depiction of the Amazons with their awesome perms and chrome-plated armour was so compelling. I guess that's why the title was such a top-seller. Those darned Greeks and their boring myths just pale in comparison, no doubt about it.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    And it's one thing to take the shine off of a supposedly-perfect society and another to drag it through the mud and stomp on it so much that it's not even remotely recognizable. I have yet to see anything likeable, respectable or 'shiny' about the Amazons. Azzarello took it to a ridiculous extreme. They aren't a flawed utopian society - they're a barbaric backwards bunch of murderers (so far).
    Murderers? They're warriors. And they do have a flawed utopia since they must be warriors to preserve their way of life. There's a difference between warrior tribes and barbarians.
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