Controversial Defenders Opinions

[Babylon23]

The Defenders isn't complete without Nighthawk, Hellcat and Valkyrie.

I'm not really a fan of having the Hulk, Namor, Strange and the Silver Surfer on the team at the same time.

David Kraft's Scorpio story is as good as Steve Gerber's classic run and one of the major non-Gerber highlights of the series. Actually, Kraft's run as a whole is very good and incredibly underrated.

JM Dematteis' pre-New Defenders run is also excellent.

[Brannon]

I can't support a Defenders team without Dr. Strange. He's vital, to me. He's grossly underexposed and underrated and needs as much exposure as possible. The Hulk's my favorite character, but he's never going to have an exposure problem. Namor and the Surfer are also characters that SHOULD be more popular than they are.

[Muldwych]

I dont like Silver Surfer in the defenders.

[spursevere]

I dont like Silver Surfer in the defenders.

ditto. he's just too powerful.

[ChristmasFanatic]

That with all their powerful characters, they are still considered B-listers and cant even beat Iron Man!

[comicfan298]

Fraction's Betty comes off more as a Red Jennifer Walters than Betty and the art cements the idea by not adding distinct details such as her red streaks and giving her iris's and pupils instead of just having yellow eyes.

[HeroxMatt2.0]

I agree w/ you that the red streak should be included, but I have been wondering, comicfan...

Is the red streak important because it recalls and honours the original creation, do you find it a very distinct aspect of Red She Hulk, or...?

I don't mean anything by it, (not intending to offend, or be whimsical or whatever) I'm just wondering, that's all.

[Nomads1]

I am not that up on my Defenders, but love the controversial Avengers opinions so much that I will pick up whatever Essential Defenders volumes and collected editions there are just to participate.

Let's hope the Fraction book doesn't get cancelled in the meantime.

There should be more collections in trades and HC that there are of the Defenders. IMHO, the Six Fingered Hand saga, Gerber's saga involving Nebulon the Headsman and the clowns and Busiek and Larsen's run (including the Order) are long overdue in TPB or HC. However, most of the first vol is all out in Essentials, and it's a pretty good read. The only thing missing is the last 25 issues or so, which we don't know if Marvel will put out as a sedries of colored New Defenders Classics TPBs or as another B&W Essential.

The Defenders had a great run from the very beginning (that Undying Ones crossover) up through about the end of Gerber's strange stories. After that, the title was hit or miss for a while, but included some great stories. The last really good Defenders story was the Day of the Defenders, when a whole bunch of heroes and villains all became Defenders for one day.

Then the quality started to slide, with stories fumbling around with minor characters like Arisen Tyrk, Foolkiller and Omega. And as FanboyStranger mentioned, the Tunnelworld saga was very disappointing. Also, the guys with wings growing out of their ears looked really stupid. After that, lots of guest stars, including a phase when lots of Avengers were showing up in the book. In the final stretch, the team mutated into a line-up that resembled the Champions more than the Defenders.

I can see your point, but I'll have to disagree based on my next controversial opinion. J.M. DeMatties was the best writer of Defenders vol.1. The Six Fingered Hand Saga, the Death of NightHawk, the journey to the Squadron Supreme's Earth, the whole Secret Empire saga that resulted in the New Defenders, so many personal stories... In fact, I've often wondered if the New Defenders change was actually a move planned by DeMatties or if it was in some way editorially mandated. I always found it strange of him to change a book so drastically only to leave after completing the fisrt arc.

Probably not too controversial, but She-Hulk should have been on the current team as opposed to She-Rulk.

I agree here. See nothing different or intresting on She-Rulk (nor in Rulk). Wish they'd invested on Jen instead of her.

Peace

[Nomads1]

Another opinion, more then Strange, Hulk, Nighthawk, Val or anyone, Namor is the true spirit of the Defenders.

Peace

[Ziggy Stardust]

Hulk, Namor, Strange, Val

Those four must be in the series or it's not the Defenders to me. Maybe Nighthawk....

And y'know, I started to LOATHE the Defenders book when it got to be all about demons and Hell and shit like that.

Sure, with Strange on-board, you gotta expect some mystical stuff, but that go to be a little too much, IMO.

[baltiroo]

I am more interested in the Defenders when it includes Hellcat, Valkyrie, Nighthawk and Gargoyle. I really enjoyed the first half of the first volume and thought that the concept was strong and worked for a while. But once you get in to the later issues the idea that they are a non-team loses its shine. They really do become a team and then the reason they stay together has to change too. I enjoyed the New Defenders a whole lot. I didn't like The Order - although the concept was interesting. I don't like Betty Ross/Red She-Hulk as a member (don't like the red hulks at all - and have avoided them as much as I can). Should've been Jen.

[Panic]

I found the New Defenders incredibly boring. I don't think I found any of the characters or the plots interesting. Probably my favourite Defenders comics were the Squadron Supreme/Overmind issues - I thought those were good.

[Shellhead]

Reading this thread has reminded me why every attempt to bring back the Defenders has failed. It's because the original concept got lost part way through the first series, and then they just kept trying random changes to see what would stick. Now, when fans talk about the Defenders, it's like a group of blind men encountering an elephant and trying to talk about it. It's like a wall (the side of the elephant's torso). No, it's like rope (the trunk). No, it is very sharp (the tusks). No, you are all wrong, it is like a pillar (a leg).

The original concept of the Defenders was powerful outcast heroes coming together to save the world. Marvel experimented with two different versions of the Defenders before giving them a name and a title. First, there was a multi-part crossover involving Dr. Strange, Namor and Hulk fighting the Undying Ones. The relevant issues were Doctor Strange #183, Sub-Mariner #22, and Hulk #126. That Hulk issue also introduced Barbara Norris, who later became the host body of Valkyrie.

There was also a two-part story in Sub-Mariner #34-35 that featured Namor, Hulk and Silver Surfer. The second issue was actually like a trial run for the excellent Avengers-Defenders War a couple of years later:



So that's your foundation of the Defenders, a team of misunderstood outsiders: Dr. Strange, a mysterious and slightly sinister-looking mystic. Hulk, the rampaging monster. Namor, WWII hero turned enemy of the surface world. Silver Surfer, former herald of Galactus. And Valkyrie joined soon after, looking exactly like a villain who attacked the Avengers during a recent Halloween parade.

This theme was muddled quickly by regular guest stars like Luke Cage, Ben Grimm, Yellowjacket, and Daredevil. As a former villain, Nighthawk fit the theme, but Hellcat was out of place, though lots of fun. By the time Moondragon, Angel and Iceman joined the Defenders, the name and the team meant nothing at all. Unfortunately, we all started reading at different times, so we all cling nostalgically to our own memories of the Defenders.

[AcesX1X]

That is controversial. Why so?

i think he was one of the earliest things that ruined the original brand.

[Nomads1]

Reading this thread has reminded me why every attempt to bring back the Defenders has failed. It's because the original concept got lost part way through the first series, and then they just kept trying random changes to see what would stick. Now, when fans talk about the Defenders, it's like a group of blind men encountering an elephant and trying to talk about it. It's like a wall (the side of the elephant's torso). No, it's like rope (the trunk). No, it is very sharp (the tusks). No, you are all wrong, it is like a pillar (a leg).

The original concept of the Defenders was powerful outcast heroes coming together to save the world. Marvel experimented with two different versions of the Defenders before giving them a name and a title. First, there was a multi-part crossover involving Dr. Strange, Namor and Hulk fighting the Undying Ones. The relevant issues were Doctor Strange #183, Sub-Mariner #22, and Hulk #126. That Hulk issue also introduced Barbara Norris, who later became the host body of Valkyrie.

There was also a two-part story in Sub-Mariner #34-35 that featured Namor, Hulk and Silver Surfer. The second issue was actually like a trial run for the excellent Avengers-Defenders War a couple of years later:



So that's your foundation of the Defenders, a team of misunderstood outsiders: Dr. Strange, a mysterious and slightly sinister-looking mystic. Hulk, the rampaging monster. Namor, WWII hero turned enemy of the surface world. Silver Surfer, former herald of Galactus. And Valkyrie joined soon after, looking exactly like a villain who attacked the Avengers during a recent Halloween parade.

This theme was muddled quickly by regular guest stars like Luke Cage, Ben Grimm, Yellowjacket, and Daredevil. As a former villain, Nighthawk fit the theme, but Hellcat was out of place, though lots of fun. By the time Moondragon, Angel and Iceman joined the Defenders, the name and the team meant nothing at all. Unfortunately, we all started reading at different times, so we all cling nostalgically to our own memories of the Defenders.

I actually started reading Defenders around the second dozen of the original run or so, when the team was mostly Strange, Nighthawk, Val and the Hulk, give or take the ocasional addition (Namor, Hawkeye, SS, Cage, etc...). And Marvel has a history of changing concepts right out of the bat. Look at Avengers and the intro of Cap's Kooky Quartet in #16. FF also soon morphed into something that they weren't at first. I guess Marvel thought that the Defenders concept was too much alike to the Avengers and wanted something to make it stand out. Hence, the non-team everybody can join thing. The Avengers were imersed in formalities, rules and traditions. The Defenders weren't. (At least until Bendis made the Avengers feel more like the Defenders than anything else). I think that the current version of Defender still lack that different feel, that which makes it stand out from other teams, but I admit to only skiming a few issues (waiting for the trade) so I may be wrong. With the current celebutants mentality of Avengers, and the fact that more heroes of the MU have been Avengers now then Defenders, it's kinda hard to put together a team of misunderstood outsiders now. Who would they be? Punisher, Ghost Rider, D-Man and Squirrel Girl? Don't see it as a great seller. A new Avengers / Defenders War (IMHO, long overdue) would also be quite awkard now, seeing as most Defenders are now as much Avengers as anyone else. Heck, Namor, that misunderstood outsider, has now been a Defender, an Avengers, an X-Men and an unofficial member of the FF (DeFalco's run), not to mention an Invader.
I will agree that the Defenders is really a hard concept to define.

Peace