AvX #2 *Spoilers*

[AcesX1X]

Hope has amazing control over her powers.

yes. where is this notion that hope doesn't know how to use her powers coming from? that's garbage. she makes rachel look like a clutz in comparison.

[classicgmer]

yes. where is this notion that hope doesn't know how to use her powers coming from? that's garbage. she makes rachel look like a clutz in comparison.

Yes because she had no trouble at all dealing with Kenji Uedo/Zero in their first encounter right I'd say just in the short time she's known she's known she's a mutant & manage her powers it's pretty asinine to just assume she'll have no trouble managing the power of the phoenix.


She's done exceptionally well dealing with what she's had to so far but that doesn't mean she'll be able to have masterful control once the phoenix bonds with her.

[RDMacQ]

When Cap stops caring about the Constitution then he loses the right to wear the flag that he wears, that is very simple.

You think a warrant is needed for a rescue attempt from an invading army? Snatching a non-criminal civilian from her home by force without legal authority is a different thing

NOW Cap's stopped "caring about the constitution?" Wonderful.

I would hope you actually have proof from the comic that Cap is going against the constitution, and it's not just another made up argument to have something to complain about. I mean, you have the issue and page# that shows this, right?

[Daithi]

Yes because she had no trouble at all dealing with Kenji Uedo/Zero in their first encounter right I'd say just in the short time she's known she's known she's a mutant & manage her powers it's pretty asinine to just assume she'll have no trouble managing the power of the phoenix.


She's done exceptionally well dealing with what she's had to so far but that doesn't mean she'll be able to have masterful control once the phoenix bonds with her.

No she'll learn though if it happens! Rachel didn't have masterful control over powers when she arrived (she was easily dispatched by Selene) but she learned. As much as Avengers fans seem to discount what Rachel did it happened and there's no reason why Hope couldn't have similar control over the Phoenix.

[RDMacQ]

Since Utopia is called a nation becasue they have written it that way and I have read no mention that the Constitution in the MU was thrown out I think that is fair.

So UTOPIA gets treated as a nation because it's written that way despite the actual determination of it's status being "murky", but we're not supposed to trust what the Avengers say about the Phoenix in the same story because of some other stories other writers wrote years ago that don't contradict anything being said IN the story?

Yeah, that's not completely contradictory at all- "WE SHOULD TRUST WHAT THE STORY TELLS US, unless we don't like what the story tells us then they're lying or ignorant!"

[AcesX1X]

I'd say just in the short time she's known she's known she's a mutant & manage her powers it's pretty asinine to just assume she'll have no trouble managing the power of the phoenix.

in secret avengers, captain britain vouched for rachel's time as phoenix saying that she grew up in hell and was a lot more "resilient" than her mom. well, let me tell you, hope has had it just as bad as rachel and she was raised by cable - who is basically the son of the phoenix force and was raised in a phoenix church. if phoenix goes to hope, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't be able to handle it.

[RDMacQ]

No she'll learn though if it happens! Rachel didn't have masterful control over powers when she arrived (she was easily dispatched by Selene) but she learned. As much as Avengers fans seem to discount what Rachel did it happened and there's no reason why Hope couldn't have similar control over the Phoenix.

Yes. But the point is that the teams don't have the time to wait. Plus, there's no reason to believe that Hope WOULD have control over her powers and wouldn't just nuke the planet. Just crossing fingers and hoping for the best isn't the best plan if the safety of the entire world is at stake.

[classicgmer]

Secondly what is Cap America's plan for Hope? We don't actually know. The Phoenix bonding with someone is always going to be a gamble. You can't train for it. At times luck is as viable as anything else. There's no handbook.

Have you missed the part where the Phoenix has already destroyed two worlds on it's way to earth? The Avengers know life has already been lost & when that happens you don't gamble on luck....How are people not understanding this

So what is his actual plan? To have her bond with the Phoenix away from Earth? If Hope is on Earth and the Phoenix is coming for Hope which is what everyone assumes, it's not going to destroy Earth and by extension Hope before it bonds with her.

His plan is to get her & the phoenix away from earth so it doesn't end up just like the last two planets that got in the Phoenix's way.....I'm sure Cap will do everything in his power to protect Hope once he gets her off earth (wich admitteldy is not much) but his first priority is to the safety of everyone on the planet & he shouldn't & is not gonna gamble on that.

And again who is Captain America to decide what's best against the Phoenix. The Avengers don't have a clue about it. They're making assumptions its a big destructive force.

Are they making assumptions about the fact that it's destroyed two worlds already? No of course not & thats all the information Cap needs to be concerned about the thing coming to earth and endangering everybody on it.


He's an Avenger and as a member of the Avengers he has the responsibility of safeguarding the entire planet and everyone one it which includes but is not exclusive too Mutants.

[chariset]

One more day until we can argue over AvX: VS #1. Two more days until we can argue over the AvX #3 preview!

[Daithi]

Yes. But the point is that the teams don't have the time to wait. Plus, there's no reason to believe that Hope WOULD have control over her powers and wouldn't just nuke the planet. Just crossing fingers and hoping for the best isn't the best plan if the safety of the entire world is at stake.

You have no reason to believe that Hope wouldn't have enough control, repower the mutant population and leave Earth alone. Again Jean only went nutso because of external influences like Emma and Mastermind. She bonded with the Phoenix at a young age and saved the universe.

[RDMacQ]

You have no reason to believe that Hope wouldn't have enough control, repower the mutant population and leave Earth alone. Again Jean only went nutso because of external influences like Emma and Mastermind. She bonded with the Phoenix at a young age and saved the universe.

I'm sorry, but that's really just wishful thinking. Arguing that "We don't know" isn't good enough when the story is implying that the fate of the world is at stake. We don't know if Cyclop's plan would be a success or failure. We do know that Cap's plan is at least trying to attack the problem head on and try to save the planet.

[LeonardEugenius]

I'm sorry, but that's really just wishful thinking. Arguing that "We don't know" isn't good enough when the story is implying that the fate of the world is at stake. We don't know if Cyclop's plan would be a success or failure. We do know that Cap's plan is at least trying to attack the problem head on and try to save the planet.

I don't understand why the "we don't know" argument doesn't work now. It worked fine when people wanted to defend Captain America taking Hope into protective custody because "we didn't know" what he was going to do. You can't have it both ways. If we had to give Captain America the benefit of the doubt, then the same applies with Cyclops.

[RDMacQ]

I don't understand why the "we don't know" argument doesn't work now.

Because of the giant flaming bird of death heading straight towards Earth. Cap's might not know what happens, but he's not taking chances with the entire planet at stake.

It worked fine when people wanted to defend Captain America taking Hope into protective custody because "we didn't know" what he was going to do.

Because that is playing it safe. If the bonding turns out positive, she's off planet so she didn't risk blowing up the Earth. If it doesn't, she's off planet so she doesn't risk blowing up the Earth.

You can't have it both ways.

This isn't having it both ways.

If we had to give Captain America the benefit of the doubt, then the same applies with Cyclops.

It's not giving Cap "the benefit of the doubt." It's playing it safe and not gambling with people's lives.

[LeonardEugenius]

Because of the giant flaming bird of death heading straight towards Earth. Cap's might not know what happens, but he's not taking chances with the entire planet at stake.



Because that is playing it safe. If the bonding turns out positive, she's off planet so she didn't risk blowing up the Earth. If it doesn't, she's off planet so she doesn't risk blowing up the Earth.



This isn't having it both ways.



It's not giving Cap "the benefit of the doubt." It's playing it safe and not gambling with people's lives.

I'm sorry but that is having it both ways. When people criticized Cap's plan before he had been given the chance to explain, you and others said you couldn't criticize Cap because he hadn't said what he intended to do. The "giant flaming bird of death" was still headed towards the Earth in AvX #1. In AvX 1 Cap made no mention of what he was going to do besides take Hope into protective custody. The bits about off world didn't come until the New Avengers issue. Cap still hasn't told Cyclops or any of the X-Men that in AvX 2, so they have no reason to trust him. Now when people try and defend Cyclops in the same manner you have an issue with it. We don't know what Cyclops plans to do because the story hasn't allowed him an opportunity to say so.

[RDMacQ]

I'm sorry but that is having it both ways. When people criticized Cap's plan before he had been given the chance to explain, you and others said you couldn't criticize Cap because he hadn't said what he intended to do.

No, I was saying people can't assume that Cap plans on killing Hope because he never said anything like that and we shouldn't criticize him on that point if we haven't seen anything like that.

We know both plans now. They're both out in the open. It's not having it both ways.

The "giant flaming bird of death" was still headed towards the Earth in AvX #1. In AvX 1 Cap made no mention of what he was going to do besides take Hope into protective custody. The bits about off world didn't come until the New Avengers issue. Cap still hasn't told Cyclops or any of the X-Men that in AvX 2, so they have no reason to trust him.

But the reader does.

Now when people try and defend Cyclops in the same manner you have an issue with it.

Because it's an entirely different situation now. We have more information to go on.

We don't know what Cyclops plans to do because the story hasn't allowed him an opportunity to say so.

Except it has. Bond Hope with the Phoenix. She'll be their "Messiah." Compared to the "Get her off planet to save the Earth plan," that's more to go on.