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  1. #841
    Senior Member The_Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    Hope made Logan promise that if she ever went crazy with the Phoenix, he'd kill her before it went too far.



    Logan and Spider-Man sneak into Utopia looking to snatch 'n grab Hope before the other mutants catch on, and come across her standing over the unconscious bodies of her mutant friends and surrounded in the flames of the Phoenix. The plan changed, and Wolverine was about to fulfill his promise.
    Hmm originally I was with these guys thinking Logan went too far, but now in light of this new evidence I think he acted appropriate.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ronin View Post
    Hmm originally I was with these guys thinking Logan went too far, but now in light of this new evidence I think he acted appropriate.
    i don't. that scene took place before he had a crisis of faith, before he was tricked into murdering all his own kids, and before he pledged a life of service to the younger generation. his whole purpose now is to protect the children at any cost, and keep them alive. he went against everything he has supposedly stood for since the schism.

  3. #843
    Senior Member timeismoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ronin View Post
    Hmm originally I was with these guys thinking Logan went too far, but now in light of this new evidence I think he acted appropriate.
    Most of these guys like to complain why missing the bigger picture he try to keep his word that's all anyone who say different is dumb or can't read.
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  4. #844
    Senior Member The_Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Depends on whether X-Men uniforms count as military uniforms and the Utopians as a 'regular' military force, or if prosecutors and officials could say those were their street clothes and they were unlawful combatant terrorist insurgents with a straight face. Even in Iraq, you'll note that no attempts were made to brand the actual uniformed Iraqi troops as terrorists for having shot back at US troops.
    No but Al-Queda and Taliban guerilla fighters are labeled (And indeed often appropriately so) terrorists and often did not receive the same protections Iraq military received. The administration could go either way, treating the x-men as an enemy army, or as terrorist-slash-insurgence.

    How much people would agree with that call is certainly debatable though.

  5. #845
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    His choice to kill billions was neither controlled nor justified. Sorry.

    As for Beast, in the only incident that really qualifies, directing fire support at a dimensional portal where an invading army is about to come through is a mite different from killing billions to salt the earth for the little girl you're hunting. Somebody points an army at you, they can expect to have that army shot at, and perhaps some retaliation on their home ground, but none of that applied to the future populations Bishop arranged to die. Plus, with Bishop and Blaquesmith/Cable having diametrically opposed future knowledge of Hope's actions to come, it's clear that no one outcome is inevitable, and therefore Bishop's justification is lacking, where striking an invading army is its own justification.
    The future happened it's not going to unhappen, that's what Bishop has. What does Cable have?
    I dont remember the dude explaining himself at all.
    Last edited by Sighphi; 04-19-2012 at 03:31 PM.

  6. #846
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Is Hope still considered a minor? And if she is, who are her legal guardians? The Avengers can be justified in taking her if there is no one on Utopia has any legal rights to her as a guardian or parent.
    Do the Avengers have any legal authority to do anything at all on Utopian, they have authority under US law, not where they feel like it. If they were going to go that way would have to convince a judge that what they were planing was in HOPEs best interest. They would also have to first convince a judge that the judge had any authority in Utopia.

    Some things the executive branch can not decide on it's own and that would be one of them, the POTUS doesn't have that authority so it's damned sure the Avengers don't
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  7. #847
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i don't. that scene took place before he had a crisis of faith, before he was tricked into murdering all his own kids, and before he pledged a life of service to the younger generation. his whole purpose now is to protect the children at any cost, and keep them alive. he went against everything he has supposedly stood for since the schism.
    How so? Kids in Westchester are still in Westchester.
    Plus, depending on the writer Hope is 18
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  8. #848
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharoahe22 View Post
    One of the things that I think is really interesting about some of the arguments that are taking place is that people only like to apply real world logic to the situations when it suits their argument. As readers, we have a different perspective on things than the characters in the stories because we can see the whole picture. We can look at that panel with Wolverine and Hope and say "Well this is only issue #2 of 12...so Hope's more than likely not going to destroy reality this issue." We can also flip through the pages to the end of the story to see how people's decisions pan out in the end. This is what Wolverine sees when he comes into the room:



    Now, MikeKerIII said something like "Wolverine would be able to hear their heartbeats and hear them breathing when he came into the room". I sincerely doubt that he would have. Using real world logic, literally the first things he would have noticed were what he saw with his eyes, and what he was smelling. Breath control and heartbeats are very faint things to notice. Even though Wolverine has enhanced hearing, he doesn't have Daredevil level "pin drop from a mile away" hearing. His sense of hearing would almost certainly be overpowered by his other two senses. He SEES Hope...on FIRE...cackling with Phoenix power. He SEES the other LIGHTS laying around her incapacitated. He SMELLS the cackling fire...he SMELLS the smoke and steam coming off of the bodies. All of this happens within a number of seconds. He make a reaction based on the information he gathers in those two seconds.

    Now, as I mentioned before, we as readers can say "Well he should've waited for back-up", or he should've done this and he should've done that. We can form these opinions because we have the luxury of being able to finish the book, and analyze the information that we've gathered. it's the whole "Monday Morning Quarterback" thing. Wolverine doesn't have that luxury. To Wolverine, the Phoenix is a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off...and he acted...to save his school and the whole world. Superbeast said that Wolverine didn't have solid proof, but if you come into a room, and someone's holding a gun, and everyone around the room is lying there shot, that pretty damn incriminating...even if the person holding the gun didn't shoot anyone.

    Also, people keep saying that the Phoenix has been used for good in the past. No one is denying that. People also shouldn't deny then that the Phoenix has killed billions of sentient beings on more than one occasion. The Phoenix has shown itself to be several things, including being jealous and susceptible to control and manipulation. So, at best, it's an unstable cosmic entity with boundless power. As a reader, you can say what you would have done or what should be done in a situation because a) it's not real and b) you have information about all of the factors that come into play regarding the story. You can say "oh, well the Avengers are going to win this because they have a movie coming out this summer" or "Well Cyclops is going to do this next issue because this writer has a tendency to write him that way". The characters in the story can only go off of what they're experiencing within the confines of the story...so they react differently. Wolverine, in this situation, doesn't know whether Hope's going to blow up the world in the next 30 seconds. Given what Wolverine saw, it was perfectly logical for him to react that way.
    You do know that Wolverines sense are massively amped up? He could hear those heartbeats and breathing if they were in another room.
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  9. #849

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i don't. that scene took place before he had a crisis of faith, before he was tricked into murdering all his own kids, and before he pledged a life of service to the younger generation. his whole purpose now is to protect the children at any cost, and keep them alive. he went against everything he has supposedly stood for since the schism.
    I think "Possibly out of control cosmic entity that could destroy the universe" trumps pretty much anything else. He didn't go against anything at all. How can he protect the kids at the school or teach them anything at all if everyone's dead...destroyed by this entity? He said in WATX #9 that he would protect the school at all costs. He tried to do just that.
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  10. #850
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    You do know that Wolverines sense are massively amped up? He could hear those heartbeats and breathing if they were in another room.
    Wolverine still has a normal human brain, his sensory registers can process that information, but it's up to him what he pays attention to to determine what goes into his short term memory. Your making assumptions about wolverine's thoughts leading this to be an argument that is just going to go in circles
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  11. #851

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    You do know that Wolverines sense are massively amped up? He could hear those heartbeats and breathing if they were in another room.
    Wolverine is not Daredevil man. You might want his senses to be that strong to suit your argument, but they're not. Yes, Wolverine has enhanced senses. His sense of smell is his strongest...and is on the same level as (and maybe even above) Daredevil's. He can track anyone on the planet with his sense of smell. Wolverine also has eagle eyes. Wolverine DOES have superhumanly acute hearing...but his sense of hearing isn't strong enough to differentiate faint sounds like heartbeats and breathing over cackling fire, explosions, earthquake level punches, running, optics blasts, etc. Like I said, Daredevil's sense of hearing is acute enough to hear a pin drop miles away...and differentiate between all of the different sounds that he's taking in. Daredevil's sense of hearing is also strong enough to give him 360 degree radar. Wolverine's isn't. Yes, in perfect conditions, Wolverine could probably hear the breathing and heartbeats from another room. However, with everything going on, there's no way that he hears that...at least not right away...in the seconds after he walks in the door. Your brain has to actually process that information...and his sense of vision would certainly overpower everything else immediately.
    Last edited by pharoahe22; 04-19-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  12. #852
    Share the Love! Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Do the Avengers have any legal authority to do anything at all on Utopian, they have authority under US law, not where they feel like it. If they were going to go that way would have to convince a judge that what they were planing was in HOPEs best interest. They would also have to first convince a judge that the judge had any authority in Utopia.

    Some things the executive branch can not decide on it's own and that would be one of them, the POTUS doesn't have that authority so it's damned sure the Avengers don't
    Yep, just like Scott went through legal channels to request Wanda being turned over to the Utopian justice system. Oh wait, that never happened. They attacked the Avengers in New York instead. Making death threats against an elected US mayor didn't help his case, either.

    The thing is, Scott never respected the sovereignity of any other nation, but now tries to hide behind he same laws he himself broke in the past. If he wants to play nation state and have Utopia be respected by other countries, he needs to stick to the same rules as everybody else. He didn't, so his "nation" is fair game.
    Last edited by Starfish; 04-19-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  13. #853
    Senior Member Zen-aku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    You do know that Wolverines sense are massively amped up? He could hear those heartbeats and breathing if they were in another room.
    if he stopped to listen, he had other things to worry about

  14. #854
    rich hypocrites Exo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    See, unless they're actually showing burned skin (like Wolverine is), I don't interpret those kinds of panels as burning them into unconsciousness. It's fairly standard for comic book panels to show the results of generic 'energy blasts' as including downed and unconscious, but not permanently harmed, targets surrounded by what could be smoke, or steam, or who knows what.
    I think the smoking pile of kids implies that fire was involved, be it the real thing or magical phoenix fire that won’t necessarily leave you with third-degree burns (just deep emotional scarring).

    But unless they show us something a little more "explicit" (charred skin and NC-17 agony), you chalk it up as ordinary run-of-the-mill special FX? Alright.

    Contrary to your statement, non-lethal radiation in the form of energy blasts is pretty darn common in the MU, and it does indeed work that way there. In fact, it's far less common to show actual burning injuries even from something like the Human Torch's flame or Firestar's microwave blasts, let alone the generified blasts thrown around by everybody from Hope to Kang to Doom to Joe Schmoe Villain of the Week.
    I'm pretty sure that if you get tasered long enough for your body to start excreting smoke, we're past the point non-lethal (the dictionary calls it 'cooking', would you believe it).

    But I get it now; this is MAGICAL pixie fire. Blast those darn kids all day long, there's zero risk of getting radiation overexposure!
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  15. #855
    rich hypocrites Exo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Wolvie raised the stakes, the X-men can't let the Avengers hunt hope since the stakes are now openly here life. the best way they can protect her is to take down the people who are hunting her.
    No, the best way they can protect her is to send her away to another star system or dimension. The Avengers would back down immediately.
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