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  1. #2086
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    What do I believe is wrong with arguing that mutants are no longer subject to human law?

    Simple.. mutant should have the SAME rights and obligations as anyone else. They shouldn't be descriminated against certainly, but neither should they have immunity to the laws which everyone else are obliged to follow.

    If a mutant wants to live on Scotts little sinking rock, that's fine. He can and should follow whatever rules Scott sets up. But if a mutant chooses to live in the US or anywhere else for that matter, then they assume the same legal obligations that everyone else has.

    If a mutant J walks or cheats on his taxes or robs a bank, they should be arrested and put through due process just like everyone else. Mutants no longer being subject to human laws simply because Scott says so is utterly ridiculous.
    What is the option for a group that has little or no chance of fair treament whether they are guilty or innocent?
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  2. #2087
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    An interesting thing about WMDs:
    There are some political scientists that attribute the threat of WMDs to Israel's continued existence. Israel having nuclear weapons is often considered "the world's worst kept secret." The is a sort of unspoken agreement, some say, that nobody on either side brings this up. It is an invaluable weapon, since they are a bit of an underdog in their area. But, the fact that they don't publicly acknowledge them keeps an arms race from happening, since nobody can officially justify created any of their own. A not-so-secret-weapon, essentially.

  3. #2088
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    What is the option for a group that has little or no chance of fair treament whether they are guilty or innocent?
    What is their options apart from deciding that mutants are no longer subject to human law? NOT deciding that mutants are no longer subject to human law.

    As I said, if a mutant wants to live on Scotts sinking rock thats fine... but if they CHOOSE to live somewhere else, they have the same obligations and responsibilities that everyone else has. That's just how it works, and how it SHOULD work.

    The simple fact is that Scott doesn't have the right to decide the laws of every other nation on the earth. Pretending that he does backing that up with threats only turns more people against them. It's not only wrong, it's just flat out stupid.

  4. #2089
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Rereading the letter, I think it may be that he rejects the judicial part. The laws still apply, but he claims that they should face different courts. So, if they break the law, then they can be arrested. But, they would be sent to Utopia for trial and incarceration. Something like an extradition policy, I guess? Equally wrong, but i think that distinction should be made.

  5. #2090
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Rereading the letter, I think it may be that he rejects the judicial part. The laws still apply, but he claims that they should face different courts. So, if they break the law, then they can be arrested. But, they would be sent to Utopia for trial and incarceration. Something like an extradition policy, I guess? Equally wrong, but i think that distinction should be made.
    Yeah, but he says he not only rejects human law judging mutants but also confinding and imprisoning them. How the heck to you arrest someone if you can't confine or imprison them? What does Scott expect law enforcement to do the next time Whirlwind robs a bank? Write him a ticket?

    Truthfully I'm not even sure Scott means what he's writing, or has even given real thought to what he's writing. To threaten to use the extinction team if a government attempts to imprison a mutant for criminal behavior is ridiculous... and hopefully on some level he knows that. But the problem is regardless of whether he means it or not, it's essentially making ridiculous demands of literally every nation on earth. The X-Men have enough enemies without legitimate reasons to have the X-Men as enemeis... they don't need to create new enemies with legitimate reasons to be enemies with the Xmen on top of that. If this is about survival, then I"m just not seeing how this helps matters all that much.

    At one point I believe Cyclops did a great job protecting the mutants of Utopia. Now... I frankly think he's just making enemies. He's splintering the X-Men in Schism, and making enemies out of the Avengers and potentially every other nation on earth. If they're safer or better off because of it, I'm not entirely sure why.

  6. #2091
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, but he says he not only rejects human law judging mutants but also confinding and imprisoning them. How the heck to you arrest someone if you can't confine or imprison them? What does Scott expect law enforcement to do the next time Whirlwind robs a bank? Write him a ticket?

    Truthfully I'm not even sure Scott means what he's writing, or has even given real thought to what he's writing. To threaten to use the extinction team if a government attempts to imprison a mutant for criminal behavior is ridiculous... and hopefully on some level he knows that. But the problem is regardless of whether he means it or not, it's essentially making ridiculous demands of literally every nation on earth. The X-Men have enough enemies without legitimate reasons to have the X-Men as enemeis... they don't need to create new enemies with legitimate reasons to be enemies with the Xmen on top of that. If this is about survival, then I"m just not seeing how this helps matters all that much.

    At one point I believe Cyclops did a great job protecting the mutants of Utopia. Now... I frankly think he's just making enemies. He's splintering the X-Men in Schism, and making enemies out of the Avengers and potentially every other nation on earth. If they're safer or better off because of it, I'm not entirely sure why.
    Basically, when it comes to the Extinction Team, his thinking is this:
    Those who like mutants, they won't change their minds
    Those who hate mutants, will be too afraid to act against them
    Those on the fence, will now fall into A or B
    He never really went into what would happen if they tried to incarcerate a mutant. Though, there is few enough I don't know what difference it would make. I guess he would just show up, and request them to be transferred into his custody. Like i said, I guess it is sort of like an extradition treaty. Barring CC, he has been pretty friendly with the Avengers up until now. They worked together well in UXM, and they settled their differences quite amicably in X-Sanction, considering Cyclops was fighting his techno-zombie son, or whatever.

    Edit to add: Plus, the relations between the Blue and Gold sides have been remarkably nice, actually. Members are allowed to switch sides at anytime, as shown with Dust, Blink, and Karma. Plus, Psylock still works with Logan in X-Force. And Utopia didn't hesitate to send help to the school when Exodus attacked. In fact, it was Logan who didn't want to ask.
    Last edited by Lascoden; 04-30-2012 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #2092
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    What is their options apart from deciding that mutants are no longer subject to human law? NOT deciding that mutants are no longer subject to human law.

    As I said, if a mutant wants to live on Scotts sinking rock thats fine... but if they CHOOSE to live somewhere else, they have the same obligations and responsibilities that everyone else has. That's just how it works, and how it SHOULD work.

    The simple fact is that Scott doesn't have the right to decide the laws of every other nation on the earth. Pretending that he does backing that up with threats only turns more people against them. It's not only wrong, it's just flat out stupid.
    So if you are In a country where you have little chance of a fair trial you should just suck it up?
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  8. #2093
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    So if you are In a country where you have little chance of a fair trial you should just suck it up?
    Added: Should the Avengers do the same when they are caught by Doom who is the legal authority in his homeland?
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  9. #2094
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    The point of the WMD part is very simple< it is a well proven survival tactic when you have enemies that respect nothing but the there of their own deaths. As the Cold War remaining cold proved "Mutual Assured Destruction" (MAD) is not that crazy an idea.

    Is a defense policy endorsed by every US president since Truman really that far out of line?
    Is there any evidence that no mutant on earth is being subject to human law anymore? It certainly didn't seem like much of a deterent when Scott came onto US soil to take custody of Wanda. Nor has it seemingly detered Steve from coming onto Utopia itself to take custody of Hope.

    It hasn't helped in their survival, nor has it even actually worked as a deterent. All it does is show that Cyclops has no knowledge or respect for law... and if he's not willing to respect human laws, one has to wonder why anyone should bother respecting his. No one will or should go along with his idiotic demands, which is why it was destined to fail from the start.

  10. #2095
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    So if you are In a country where you have little chance of a fair trial you should just suck it up?
    If you honestly feel that way, then don't live in that country.

    But beyond that, you're missing the point. Scott simply doesn't have the authority to tell any nation on earth that due process no longer applies to mutants. Even if it were true that 100% of the time in every nation on earth mutants are not given proper due process (and I don't believe that has or even can be proven), the simply fact is Scott has no say in the matter. Just as other nations have no say over what occurs on Utopia.

  11. #2096

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you honestly feel that way, then don't live in that country.

    But beyond that, you're missing the point. Scott simply doesn't have the authority to tell any nation on earth that due process no longer applies to mutants. Even if it were true that 100% of the time in every nation on earth mutants are not given proper due process (and I don't believe that has or even can be proven), the simply fact is Scott has no say in the matter. Just as other nations have no say over what occurs on Utopia.
    I agree.

    For anyone not understanding this...the problem is that you don't get to say "We want to be treated equal!" and then turn around and add "But also be immune to your laws!". That is crazy behavior. You are basically saying that mutants should have carte blanche to act the way they want and if they are punished for crimes/etc then their punishers will be retaliated against. That is not fair at all. It's not even logical. Cyclops has taken Xavier's dream and turned it into mutant supremacy through pity. "Oh we're in danger of dying off...let us do whatever we want!"...uh no, it doesn't work that way. There are still plenty of dangerous, criminal mutants out there and they damn well better be subject to human law.

    Oh also...so near-extinction is no place for Xavier's "feel good dream"? Well guess what, it is the ideals we hold to in the most dire of situations that define our character. If Cyke has to compromise on Xavier's vision by incorporating elements of Magneto then he was never a fit leader in the first place. Ideals are easy to maintain when they are not under imminent threat...but if you immediately compromise them to "do better" then you didn't have a lot of stock in the ideal in the first place. "Doing what he has to do" is a poor excuse for not finding better ways to do it. Isn't this what Cap, Tony and others were under attack for a few pages back?

  12. #2097
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Is there any evidence that no mutant on earth is being subject to human law anymore? It certainly didn't seem like much of a deterent when Scott came onto US soil to take custody of Wanda. Nor has it seemingly detered Steve from coming onto Utopia itself to take custody of Hope.

    It hasn't helped in their survival, nor has it even actually worked as a deterent. All it does is show that Cyclops has no knowledge or respect for law... and if he's not willing to respect human laws, one has to wonder why anyone should bother respecting his. No one will or should go along with his idiotic demands, which is why it was destined to fail from the start.
    Although this point is very logical, Scott is simply the product of flatscan society's decades-old lack of respect for mutants. He sacrificed his entire life to the cause of protecting a world that loathes him because he breathes. He was repaid with death machines on his front lawn. Eventually, he was pushed out of his home and into an unlivable corner of the world. In order for things to change, it is flatscan society that must change, not mutants. Mutants have done all of the changing they can possibly do... outside of dying.
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  13. #2098
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Guardian View Post
    Although this point is very logical, Scott is simply the product of flatscan society's decades-old lack of respect for mutants. He sacrificed his entire life to the cause of protecting a world that loathes him because he breathes. He was repaid with death machines on his front lawn. Eventually, he was pushed out of his home and into an unlivable corner of the world. In order for things to change, it is flatscan society that must change, not mutants. Mutants have done all of the changing they can possibly do... outside of dying.
    You're not going to change the world (in a desirable manner at least) with threats of using weapons of mass destruction. What Scott doesn't understand in my view is that the reason mutants are persecuted in the first place is out of fear. Give them legitimate reason to fear them, and they'll likely just get more of the same. You don't make the world a better place by threatening to beat people up.

  14. #2099
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Guardian View Post
    Although this point is very logical, Scott is simply the product of flatscan society's decades-old lack of respect for mutants. He sacrificed his entire life to the cause of protecting a world that loathes him because he breathes. He was repaid with death machines on his front lawn. Eventually, he was pushed out of his home and into an unlivable corner of the world. In order for things to change, it is flatscan society that must change, not mutants. Mutants have done all of the changing they can possibly do... outside of dying.
    And this sort of logic.."flatscan"? Is part of the problem. Both sides need to change, but this conflict right now is going to likely set back mutant relations. Scott is putting his agenda, above and beyond the the safety of billions. Cap will likely not allow this info out..but it's very dangerous info and ammo for anti- mutant fringe.

  15. #2100
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    Marvel has bad guys. We call them supervillains like Osborn, Doom, Red Skull, Baron Strucker, HYDRA, etc. Some writers don't know how to use them so they use the heroes instead. Soon we get to the point where the heroes just fight other heroes with the ocassional bad guy thrown in. And the media and public turn on the heroes until the real bad guy shows up again.
    I get the feeling that the bad guys are all sitting around the pool at the Playboy mansion knocking back drinks, making passes at the girls and watching the heroes fight each other on some sort of omni vision :) And I gotta think a few of them are saying "Hey, maybe next time I fight that guy I'll try that tactic and see if I can beat him."

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