AvX #2 *Spoilers*

[Wolf_Leader]

And that she asked him to do it. He was simply doing what she made him promise to do.

That she asked him to do it was never in question as that was established near the end of the previous Uncanny X-Men series. I have not read Uncanny X-Men 11, so I don't know what it establishes about Wolverine's intentions, but I do recall that the request was clearly based on her going all evil and not just glowing. That's why you don't ask a psycopath to kill you based on some sort of discretion.

[mikekerrIII]

Yes. But the folks in the Marvel Universe live in a place where a giant flaming bird of death will come to roast their planet for no apparent reason, so some pragmatism is understandable.

They only think it will roaast earth ignoring the huge number of times that it has not and all the times it has saved earth

[RDMacQ]

They only think it will roaast earth ignoring the huge number of times that it has not and all the times it has saved earth

Which doesn't matter if this is the one time it is going to roast the Earth.

[mikekerrIII]

For reasons that are completely fabricated.

For reasons that are canon and have been for years

[mikekerrIII]

Which doesn't matter if this is the one time it is going to roast the Earth.

If it is they are removing their best chance to control it, that is idiotic

[RDMacQ]

For reasons that are canon and have been for years

Except for this comic which reinforces what the characters are saying as true, and has gone out of it's way to set the stage for.

You ignoring that doesn't make your position any stronger.

[RDMacQ]

If it is they are removing their best chance to control it, that is idiotic

Except there is no guarantee that this is their best chance to "control it." That's what you are "ignoring."

[jackolover]

I'm sorry to say this, man....but you literally don't understand the concept of superheroics. You simply don't. I'm not even sure you understand the concept of moral absolutism and moral high-ground either. I do not say these things to be mean or to attack you, they're simply my opinion (which I consider fact in this regard) based on the stance you are taking. You are deeply off-base regarding what superheroes are supposed to represent. When superheroes start making decisions that involve sacrificing part of a community to save another (other than sacrificing THEMSELVES) the entire concept of a SUPERhero is utterly ruined.

I hate to say this but the entire super hero community is ruined if they don't take Hope in to custody. That's how Steve Rogers sees it, not me.

When you say a superhero CAN'T do something as simple as stand up to a corrupt, evil government...I don't know what to say to that. If eliminating evil means dismantling the American government then SUPERheroes should do that (hell, regular people should do it too at some point). In the 616 the future has shown that the American gov't is entirely capable of becoming as evil as anything else in the world...days of future past, for example, is precipitated by the American government. Red Skull has been (or was almost? I don't remember) elected president...many other villains have occupied "legally" held offices or places of other authority...does that mean the heroes can/shouldn't go after them? Hell no! Doing what regular people could never do is why superheroes exist.

Who says the MU US government is a corrupt and evil government? You and Mike Kerr? I disagree with you, so the premise is all wrong from your side already.

Eliminating the SUPER part of superheroes has been going on for decades now and, surprise surprise, its been occurring along side a huge downturn in the sort of numbers that comics publish...I absolutely do not believe this is a coincidence regardless of how much people like Quesada might want to believe it so they can avoid taking a hard look at their own past decisions. People, especially kids, want to read comics or see movies about superheroes that overcome EVERYTHING....if its evil, it's going down. Why do you think wrestlers like Hulk Hogan years ago and John Cena now are the most popular wrestlers with kids EVER? Its because they're superheroic...they seem unbeatable and morally incorruptible. They represent everything a child imagines in their father...a strong, unwavering moral authority that could punch out the boogeyman if he had to. When superheros become corroded by so-called "realism" it eats away at that entire concept...and kids don't want to read it. Hell, I don't want to read that about many heroes...it's counter-genre. It's the equivalent of changing the tropes of romance novels so that the guy and girl don't get together...how long are they going to keep pulling in female readers when the girl can't get the guy or vice versa?

I don't know where you get this thing about decades. I can accept about 7-8 years maybe, but before then Super heroes were operating quite heroically without much government interference. Your facts are a little eschew.

Honestly what sort of stories do you want to read? "Hey Tony Stark, the gov't wants all your armor designs so we can build some super-sentinels to round up all the mutants in the world. Oh then we're gonna fly those Iron-sentinels over to some other parts of the world and use them to put down some rebellions against some corporate interests we represent. Oh and we're drafting you to fight there too. K? Thanks?" And then what? Tony hangs his head and does as he's told, hoping to minimize the "evil" he'll be working alongside? I mean, he can't fight the GUBMENT! Right?

No. That might be Gyrichs wet dream.

Look, that kind of rhetoric suited the Civil War debates, but they are out modded these days in the Heroic Age. It may be difficult for you to understand, but a super hero community that has to abide by government legislation looks like what we are getting here. Your idealistic free-wheeling super heroes went out in 2006. Nobody is advocating super heroes be used as guns for the government, but if it did start to sound that way, I would be against it, and I think Cap would be embarrassed to be seen in that light, if confronted by that image.

"Hey, Steve...you know, this whole scandal that's erupting is preeeeetty bad. The CIA can't have a couple of these guys going down...think you could take that shield and bash in the heads of some innocent whistleblowing witnesses for us? It'd be a big help if they weren't around to testify at those senate hearings coming up" Then Cap responds "Well, while I disagree with this methodology, you ARE duly elected or appointed officials...so, yeah I'll do it" Don't worry though, Cap will do the "right thing"...and he'll make it quick and painless when he snuffs those innocent people. Remember, it's for the greater good so a lot more people don't have to suffer. Phew thank god that's so cut and dry! I hate when superheroes choose the third option of "Do something amazing that saves EVERYONE while bringing the bad guys to justice"..it's just so unrealistic, right?

I think Steve did something like this in a point one recently, so you may be onto something there. I'll have to re-read that issue again.

Again, man, I really am sorry to say some of this stuff so bluntly...well, I'm not really sorry...I just kinda feel bad that you seem to actually believe the stuff you're saying. It says so much about the world we live in and the kind of comics coming out if you seriously believe some of that earlier stuff you wrote. Realism and superheroes are not peanut butter and chocolate....they aren't two great tastes that go great together. It's more like diarrhea and chocolate milk.

Well, we may have crossed wires a little. Hopefully we'll sort that out.

[jackolover]

They tried the Geneva convent? In reality the used it and hung peole that did not follow it in quite large numbers. In this case the equitation doesn't fit since the person that is being attack is being attacked not by a foreign enemy but by her own government without having committed a crime. the Geneva convention doesn't apply but civil right do.

But we are talking WMD's like Hope and the Phoenix; like Japan and Nuclear bombs?

[mikekerrIII]

Except for this comic which reinforces what the characters are saying as true, and has gone out of it's way to set the stage for.

You ignoring that doesn't make your position any stronger.

What the Avengers, who are not show to know much about it outside the lies Wolverine told them.

The X-men seem to think that what the Avengers are saying is BS.,

[mikekerrIII]

But we are talking WMD's like Hope and the Phoenix; like Japan and Nuclear bombs?

By that logic you have to take out all the potential WMD which would be half the Avenges X-men and a nmajoity of comic characters Marvel publishes.

Just FYA what the US did in japan was within US and international law at the time.

[RDMacQ]

What the Avengers, who are not show to know much about it outside the lies Wolverine told them.

Only according to you is what Wolverine is saying "lies."

But, as I pointed out, since you're not the one writing the story, you don't get to make that determination. And I don't have to take that claim seriously. If you want to bring stuff from the actual comic (And not a comic written by another writer 20 years ago) then you'll have some credibility.

The X-men seem to think that what the Avengers are saying is BS.,

Wow. For someone who keeps telling people to read the comic you sure seem to skip over a lot and give it a warped interpretation.

The X-Men are doubtful of Cyclops plan, and he's more of the mindset that something positive to come from the Phoenix's coming. It's not that they think that the Avengers are working on "lies."

That's just you.

Making stuff up.

As usual.

[Mark_S]

Which doesn't matter if this is the one time it is going to roast the Earth.

Do we know that for sure? I'll admit having a cosmic level being come near Earth should warrant a bit of caution. But so far what we've seen is the equivalent of Captain Picard giving the order to raise shields because Q just showed up on the bridge. Maybe it will be revealed in later issues that Cap and the rest thought this through and that they actually have a very detailed, very intelligent plan with multiple safe guards and back ups. But all we have seen so far is Cap coming to the island with troops in tow and basically saying 'gimme' and Scott flying off the handle.
So far to me this reads as if one day the marvel writers said one day "let's have the X-men and the Avengers fight" and everyone shouted "Hell Yea!" and only after they plotted out the fights did someone bother to ask "Why are they fighting?" and a reason had to be thrown into the plot at random.

Mark_S

[Brandon McKinnis]

Do we know that for sure? I'll admit having a cosmic level being come near Earth should warrant a bit of caution. But so far what we've seen is the equivalent of Captain Picard giving the order to raise shields because Q just showed up on the bridge. Maybe it will be revealed in later issues that Cap and the rest thought this through and that they actually have a very detailed, very intelligent plan with multiple safe guards and back ups. But all we have seen so far is Cap coming to the island with troops in tow and basically saying 'gimme' and Scott flying off the handle.
So far to me this reads as if one day the marvel writers said one day "let's have the X-men and the Avengers fight" and everyone shouted "Hell Yea!" and only after they plotted out the fights did someone bother to ask "Why are they fighting?" and a reason had to be thrown into the plot at random.

Mark_S

You're skipping the part about it wiping out planet after planet on it's way. Gee, why would anyone be worried about that.

So far the Avengers, via Secret Avengers, are the only ones that have tried to do anything. Scott's crew has literally not even attempted to investigate. Planets are getting wiped out and Scott is smirking.

If they X-Men are such experts, who have known about hope/phoenix for quite awhile, why have they done absolutely nothing to investigate. It's not like they can't go to space.

The blood of every planet they let die is on Scott's hands according to Mike Kerr's asinine "logic".

[mikekerrIII]

You're skipping the part about it wiping out planet after planet on it's way. Gee, why would anyone be worried about that.

So far the Avengers, via Secret Avengers, are the only ones that have tried to do anything. Scott's crew has literally not even attempted to investigate. Planets are getting wiped out and Scott is smirking.

If they X-Men are such experts, who have known about hope/phoenix for quite awhile, why have they done absolutely nothing to investigate. It's not like they can't go to space.

The blood of every planet they let die is on Scott's hands according to Mike Kerr's asinine "logic".

The X-men are smart enough to know that the PF can't be stooped by the forces available, I dount the Avengers Cap is throwing way do any better trying than the X-men do waiting.