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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    So Diana is in love with Zola now? Didn't pick that at first, but makes sense.
    Wait, what?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Issues like this make me sad about the awful things I've seen in the run, because if it werent for them I'd be really enjoying it.
    Come over to the dark side, Brett!

    So Diana is in love with Zola now? Didn't pick that at first, but makes sense. She is the first person Diana sees after she is shot.
    No, I don't think so. I may have sounded like I was saying that earlier--right before the issue came out, I half-facetiously guessed that Hades was going to shoot Diana to make her fall in love with Zola. But I don't think that's what actually happened.Diana was looking towards Hades when he shot her, right? And Diana tells Zola to go away; that might be a giving thing to do, considering that they're in hell at the time, but I think Eros' arrows are more likely to produce an erotic and possessive love than a selfless one.

    Very convenient Heph gave her the guns to take in the first place. Smells like a trap to me.
    Yeah--but a trap for Diana, or a trap for Hades?

    And I wonder if there is any hiddent meaning behind Zola's coyote t-shirt. Isn't the coyote a trickster in north american legends?
    Yeah--good point.
    Last edited by slvn; 04-19-2012 at 05:27 AM.

  3. #78
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think so too; in fact, I that a "cliffhanger with hints" may be exactly what we got! One possible hint is the fact that she takes the pistols so readily--despite Eros's obvious disapproval, despite her preference for even more "archaic" weapons, and despite the fact that, judging by her tactics against the zombies, she really has little use for the guns as weapons. Another hint is the fact that she brings up Hades' desire for a wife and asks what else he wants--almost as is she were prompting him to ask for the guns. Yet another hint is the fact that she turns over the guns with no hesitation. And actually, her "body language" and facial expressions as she does all this are interesting. There also may be foreshadowing when Hephaestus says, in 7, that you don't bargain with Hades with weapons, but Eros says weapons a good start (which turns out to be exactly right--the weapons are Hades' starting point, but what he's really bargaining for is a queen.) If there were any stronger hints, I think we'd pretty much know that there was a plan, and then some of the suspense and speculation would be lost.
    Stop being so damn clever.

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    ('For Tomorrow' could have been told in 4 issues instead of 12).
    No. Just no.

    The timeline of Hades and Earth offers for some great drama and character development. Next issue we could have Diana trapped there for months just like Zola was, while the others try to figure a way out of it. I presume the eventaul betrayal will come at that point, either Hermes or somebody else is gonna show up his real face. Also, Apollo hasn't showed up in quite a while, I see either him or Hera making another move while Diana is temporaly.

    I like how nobody talks about how well Azzarello writes Diana. It seems everybody of the "this sucks" faction likes to think she's an entirely different character. Yet she still accepts her Amazon heritage, defending her choices of weapon to Heph, then she talks about the importance of life in a subtle, relaxed manner, instead of giving a big damn speech, she chooses shorts phrases that are filled with her system of beliefs.
    "Life is important, and in it's brevity is where life importance lies"
    Is heroism pure and simple, without the need of overly dramatic big analysis, pretentious deconstruction or expanded internal monologues. Azzarello may have "destroyed" her mythos, but he hasn't destroyed her, he's showing her strenght of character and pure intention, the resolution she has. Diana entire world fell on her shoulders, but she's still a pure individual who wants to do good and protect life.
    That's what heroism and heroes are made of.
    Last edited by WhitOro; 04-19-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  4. #79
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I agree with much of what you say. The scenes play too fast, but the pace is way too slow. Unfortunately I'm not the type to wait for the collected books, particularly not WW. The book feels like its being drawn to some bullet points script.. not very unlike what Phil Hester did after Stracynski left Wonder Woman by following brief outlines left behind. First, she's hog tying Hephaestus and throwing him through a brick wall like a bag of crap, then first thing the next issue he's offering his entire arsenal of weapons to her without question.. with nothing in between.
    Well there are two options:
    1) He understood her reaction and forgave her because he's a bro.
    2) They had that chat about handing over the pistols to Hades that some speculate.

    The first doesnt need any more scenes, the second cant be shown yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Issues like this make me sad about the awful things I've seen in the run, because if it werent for them I'd be really enjoying it.

    So Diana is in love with Zola now? Didn't pick that at first, but makes sense. She is the first person Diana sees after she is shot.

    Very convenient Heph gave her the guns to take in the first place. Smells like a trap to me.
    She's in love with Hades.
    And I wonder if there is any hiddent meaning behind Zola's coyote t-shirt. Isn't the coyote a trickster in north american legends?
    It's just a wolf t-shirt. They're pretty common.

  5. #80
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    I like nobody talks about how well Azzarello writes Diana. It seems everybody of the "this sucks" faction likes to think she's an entirely different character. Yet she still accepts her Amazon heritage, defending her choices of weapon to Heph, then she talks about the importance of life in a subtle, relaxed manner, instead of giving a big damn speech, she chooses shorts phrases that are filled with her system of beliefs.
    "Life is important, and in it's brevity is where life importance lies"
    Is heroism pure and simple, without the need of overly dramatic big analysis, pretentious deconstruction or expanded interna monologues. Azzarello may have "destroyed" her mythos, but he hasn't destroyed her, he's showing her strenght of character and pure intention, the resolution she has. Diana entire world fell on her shoulders, but she's still a pure individual who wants to do good and protect life.
    That's what heroism and heroes are made of.
    This. So much this!!!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reginleif View Post
    I liked this issue, but seriously, most criticism of this book is flawed. If you dont like this WW fine, but it is very good and well liked among the populace and you must understand your the minority. Seriously, I love having dialogue and stuff, but the amount of negativity surrounding this book is certainly not shared by most readers.
    Fair enough. Of course with that type of logic... Celine Dion is well liked among the populace with over 200 albums sold... (it's not a true comparison because honestly Celine can sing and is much, much, much more successful than this WW comic, but I picked her because I know there are people who really dislike her).

    And as I just read recently, I think Azz said something about if he was doing something that everybody liked then he's not doing a good job or some crap like that. I don't actually agree with that statement but since he does seem to be beloved (which I have to say is almost zealot like... I mean, I loved Chris Claremont in the day but I admit back in the day he did have lots of dangling plotlines and could see that he's not perfect) by a lot of people around here, that might mean something.

    I think for those who are not satisfied with the product and how it has changed (see Coca-Cola Classic and the new Coke) they are voicing their opinions. These readers are trying to give it a chance but the product is still failing. For me, WW's voice and character is not the same. Period. The feel is just not right.

    Also, I feel if a lot is happening "off panel", then why bother buying a comic-book. Isn't that the point of an illustrated piece, to show what is going on. When there are whole discussions and plot lines happen off panel, I for one, feel like it's not a good story. Sure, a writer can plant clues and keep out the big reveal until later but the clues need to be planted. For ex, I didn't really see where WW's love for Lola came from. Sure she's been protecting her but I've not see any evidence of her loving her like one her brethren. Of course, with the newly revised Amazonian tribe, I suppose not showing any love or even anger, must mean she's love her. Then again, that's not seeing the visual cues... it's making up a story in my mind.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I don't remember seeing any explicit references to set the year on modern Earth in the business.
    Not exactly sure if you're kidding or not, but one sign of the times is that a kid among the onlookers on the bridge in #5 is taking a picture with his cell phone.

    Also, Lennox says in 5 that he's been avoiding the evil of gods for more than eighty years. That seems like a long time even if its 2012, since WWII only started 73 years ago, and that's apparently when he found out he was a demi-god.

  8. #83
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    I like how nobody talks about how well Azzarello writes Diana. It seems everybody of the "this sucks" faction likes to think she's an entirely different character. Yet she still accepts her Amazon heritage, defending her choices of weapon to Heph, then she talks about the importance of life in a subtle, relaxed manner, instead of giving a big damn speech, she chooses shorts phrases that are filled with her system of beliefs.
    "Life is important, and in it's brevity is where life importance lies"
    Is heroism pure and simple, without the need of overly dramatic big analysis, pretentious deconstruction or expanded internal monologues. Azzarello may have "destroyed" her mythos, but he hasn't destroyed her, he's showing her strenght of character and pure intention, the resolution she has. Diana entire world fell on her shoulders, but she's still a pure individual who wants to do good and protect life.
    That's what heroism and heroes are made of.
    I believe I have mentioned before that Azz writes the character of Diana very well. Its just everything around the unfolding plot that I find distasteful. Which is sad for me - its like having a cake that absolutely delicious underneath an icing made from old fish.

    This issue had some great scenes - had to love the rider scrapping his swod along the street, and that read like a movie storyboard for me. And the minimalist approach to the underworld, using "sets" from earlier in the series, had a nice Buffy TVS feel to it. If it were on screen I imagine everything would be in black and white except the main characters.

    On the flip side, I miss the supporting cast having their own lives. Or for that matter Diana having any life beyond her mission of the moment. I find the plot a bit claustrophobic in that regard.
    Last edited by brettc1; 04-19-2012 at 06:14 AM.
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  9. #84
    Senior Member liopleurodon's Avatar
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    I don't care what people say, this was not only the best issue of this volume of Wonder Woman, it was the best damn Wonder Woman issue I have ever read.

    I cannot stress enough how amazing this was. Utter perfection. So many nuances, I kept picking up on more details every time I read it. I'm pretty sure that Hephaestus knew what would happen when he gave Wonder Woman Eros' guns. He has a major mad-on for the whole pantheon.
    Last edited by liopleurodon; 04-19-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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  10. #85
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garion View Post
    Fair enough. Of course with that type of logic... Celine Dion is well liked among the populace with over 200 albums sold... (it's not a true comparison because honestly Celine can sing and is much, much, much more successful than this WW comic, but I picked her because I know there are people who really dislike her).

    And as I just read recently, I think Azz said something about if he was doing something that everybody liked then he's not doing a good job or some crap like that. I don't actually agree with that statement but since he does seem to be beloved (which I have to say is almost zealot like... I mean, I loved Chris Claremont in the day but I admit back in the day he did have lots of dangling plotlines and could see that he's not perfect) by a lot of people around here, that might mean something.

    I think for those who are not satisfied with the product and how it has changed (see Coca-Cola Classic and the new Coke) they are voicing their opinions. These readers are trying to give it a chance but the product is still failing. For me, WW's voice and character is not the same. Period. The feel is just not right.

    Also, I feel if a lot is happening "off panel", then why bother buying a comic-book. Isn't that the point of an illustrated piece, to show what is going on. When there are whole discussions and plot lines happen off panel, I for one, feel like it's not a good story. Sure, a writer can plant clues and keep out the big reveal until later but the clues need to be planted. For ex, I didn't really see where WW's love for Lola came from. Sure she's been protecting her but I've not see any evidence of her loving her like one her brethren. Of course, with the newly revised Amazonian tribe, I suppose not showing any love or even anger, must mean she's love her. Then again, that's not seeing the visual cues... it's making up a story in my mind.
    Nicely worded. I agree with all you have said here.

  11. #86
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I believe I have mentioned before that Azz writes the character of Diana very well.
    I wasn't talking about you Brettc, but there're people that likes to keep yammering "this isn't Diana anymore". A changed tone and a changed enviroment doesn't change the character, and people like to forget that in the name of costant yelling.

    On the flip side, I miss the supporting cast having their own lives. Or for that matter Diana having any life beyond her mission of the moment. I find the plot a bit claustrophobic in that regard.
    We had moments of normal life in issue 4 and 5, but the events got faster and more dangerous. It's normal plot progression, we are in the middle of the adventure.
    I'm not sure what you mean about the supporting cast having their own life, but I'm going to assume you're talking about them "stealing the spotlight" from Diana and being a costant member of the book.
    The reason that is, is simple: Azzarello removal of the inner monologue from the book forces him to have a big and costant supporting cast. Without it, issues would feel empty, with just Diana by herself, doing stuff that we wouldn't understand because we don't have a glimpse in her mind. The cast is there to allow talking and introspection of her character by the use of dialogues.
    It's not there to steal the book, people have to understand that.

    But Whitoro, why doesn't he use the inner monologue then?
    Because inner narration is an overused trope that filles the landscape of the comicbook world, and Azza is trying a new approach to help WW's book grown his own voice in a world of costant superheroic battles. A great character needs a great book, and great books are made by peculiar styles.
    Also, Azz entire work here is trying to flat to 0% exposition, writing biggest trap.

    And trust me, you don't want Azza going full force with inner narration. Ever read Broken City? 80% of the dialogue is Batman rambling.
    Last edited by WhitOro; 04-19-2012 at 06:57 AM.

  12. #87
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    I think the reason people talk about a supporting cast 'stealing the book' is because writers using this vastly decompressed format put so little text in the book that there is nothing left beyond the main character.

    And yet, if you look at Buffy or even the Justice League this month you will see a book that manages to focus on the titles character[s] and still give you something with the supporting cast when they are not in their presence Take last issue with Steve Trevor in JL - they use his subplot to help advance the main story, but the focus is very much on Trevor. Was this a bad thing? I don't think so.

    I could say the same thing about Thor. Does Volstagg steal Thor's thunder? [couldn't help myself, sorry] Or does he just make the book more fun to read, even if he is not intereacting with Thor directly?
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by garion View Post
    Also, I feel if a lot is happening "off panel", then why bother buying a comic-book.
    To each their own, but for me, suspense and speculation are huge parts of why I buy comic books, and having some important stuff happening outside out field of vision is an important way of creating suspense and making room for speculation.

    For ex, I didn't really see where WW's love for Lola came from.
    I think that this happened pretty much "on camera," gradually, like so:

    Issue 1: There's a deep look of compassion and regret in Diana's eyes when she realizes she's choking a hunted, vulnerable girl. At the end of the issue, after Zola has tricked WW into taking her back to Virginia and then runs off (albeit running away from the centaurs), Diana ropes her, unceremnioulsy dumps her on her butt and tells her not to run off again. But she's sort of smiling when she does it, and you can tell that she appreciates the younger woman's fire.

    Issue 2: Wonder Woman continues to bond with Zola through rough humor--she jokes about Zola's rustic home and about how leaving her there might have been a good idea, and you can tell from her smile that it's friendly teasing and that she's treating Zola like a comrade who can take it. And then she tells Hippolyta that she's siding against the gods with "the girl in the middle of nowhere." This seems like an important phrase--if I remember right, it's even the title of the issue. And in the same issue we start to learn that Diana was different from all of her sisters--so wasn't SHE really the girl in the middle of nowhere? By calling Zola that, isn't she identifying with her? It's often observed that we love people in whom we see something of ourselves.

    Issue 3: In the memorable "firefly" scene, Zola spunkily takes Diana's side in quarreling with Strife.

    Issue 4: This is big: Zola understand Wonder Woman's need for "community" at the club, Wonder Woman protects Zola from Strife again (and I do think people often bond with those whom they protect), and later she reminds Wonder Woman how lucky she (unlike Zola) is to have had a family and a home. Look at that conversation again; both verbally and visually, it's portrayed as the kind of intimate sharing in which deep and loving friendships are discovered, if not born. And it prompts Diana to return to Paradise Island to reconcile with her family. Someone who prompts you to reconcile with your family--even if it turns out to be apparently to late--has become an important person in your life.

    Issues 5 and 6: Diana says that she has enjoyed spending an afternoon with Zola, she acknowledges Zola as a member of her family (her "aunt"), and she's pretty explicit about needing all the family she can get right now. And after all, wouldn't she? It seems obvious to me that, after having just apparently lost your whole family and indeed your whole tribe or nation, you might be in an emotional place where you you would be ready to bond quickly with anyone who was any kind of kindred spirit--especially if she was also something close to actual kin. Also, Zola expresses her admiration of Wonder Woman ("you're perfect") but also gives her good advice, pointing out the less idealistic parts of what Lennox had said. Diana says protective things about Zola a couple of times.

    So, by the time time Eros refers to Zola as "someone you love," it may have been striking to hear it stated flat out, but it didn't, for me, come out of nowhere.Their loving friendship had been building all along.

    Am I a zealot? I dunno--I could probably come up with a few criticisms, if pressed. No one's perfect--not Wonder woman, and not even Azz. :) Not sure I love Lennox or his accent. Akins' art isn't as good as Chiang's. The story in 6 wasn't as convoluted as some said, but it seemed a little rushed (or maybe 5 was a little too slow, leaving 6 to rush). Personally I like most of the puns a lot, but a few--"leave the mistah for my sistah"--seem to misfire. More broadly, I think Azz is trying to do "epic" in more of a classic way than the the medium normally does--with epic digressions and everything, and while I LOVE this ambition, I can see how it strains the limits of the monthly 22-page format. I could probably be more critical if I didn't see so much of what I consider to be excessive criticism to respond to. (Not that I'm complaining--I enjoy the dialogue. And I'm sure what the critics see as excessive praise pushes them to be more critical. That's how it goes sometimes.)

  14. #89
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    I have to say I dont see how good writing strains a 22 page limit if you actually use your 22 pages economically.

    And I dont really know where that admission of love came from either. Beyond Diana's normal compassion for those around her. They look to have known each other for all of a week. Robin and Little John didn't even bond this quickly.
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  15. #90
    Senior Member spark627's Avatar
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    Just have to say, I LOVED this issue, best so far. I really love Azzarello has changed the world around Diana, even her origins, but kept the core of character the same. The art was fantastic as usual. The books feels so new and exciting, I never know what to expect. This run is def tied with Rucka's for my favorite ever.
    "Of all people, you know who I am...who the world needs me to be. I'm Wonder Woman."

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