Would you read USM if Peter was alive but not currently spiderman?

[wyokid]

Then, by that reasoning, Miles Morales is the same character, too. They have similar characteristics, the same moral code, and the same super hero name. I'm not sure how much you read ASM, but the Peter in that book is very different from the Peter we had in USM.

Miles is not like Peter. I've read all of TASM. Bendis stayed incredibly faithful to the original character.

[Plawsky]

Miles is not like Peter. I've read all of TASM. Bendis stayed incredibly faithful to the original character.

If you've read them all, I really don't see how you can say that someone who wants to read Ultimate Peter should just pick up Amazing Spider-man. While I think it would be a good choice due to the quality of Amazing Spider-man, you're certainly not going to see Ultimate Peter in that book. 616 Peter is, and has been for decades, a much more mature and seasoned version of the character. Plus, in addition to the differences in the character itself, all the surroundings are different. There's no young and cool Aunt may, no superhero halfway house, no Gwen, no relationship with MJ, no female clone.

You might as well say that the Tobey Maguire character is the same Peter Parker, or the upcoming Andrew Garfield version. Sure, they're all based on the same character, but they are each unique.

And while Miles might not be exactly like Peter, there are certainly comparisons to be drawn. He's a socially awkward teenager who found his way into powers by accident and wasn't sure how to use them until someone who he looked up to died; he now fights super villains while cracking wise. But that doesn't make him Peter Parker, that makes him Spider-man. These are all just different interpretations of Spider-man.

And that's how it is with all of the Ultimate characters. At least, it is when they're written properly. Despite his skin color, Nick Fury has a lot in common with his 616-counterpart, but I wouldn't point someone to Secret Warriors just because they want an Ultimate Fury kick.

[wyokid]

You're right, they aren't the same but...

much more mature and seasoned version of the character.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. He's the same character, but older. Thank you for helping me get the point across. This is why i think Spider-Men is freaking genius.

All of those supporting cast members are still in UCSM, so my advice would be to read both

[Plawsky]

This is exactly what I was trying to say. He's the same character, but older.

But even that is a drastic over-simplification. That'd be like saying "Miles is the same character, but younger, black, and not as smart."

[taylor51]

But even that is a drastic over-simplification. That'd be like saying "Miles is the same character, but younger, black, and not as smart."

No, no, no. Wyokid's on the money here.

Characters that star in serial fiction work differently than those that star in a discrete narrative. The example I like to use to demonstrate this is Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. The experiences he has by the end of Return of The King change him into a COMPLETELY different man than the one who ran into the Hobbit's in Bree. His character follows a finite path that fundamentally changes who he is. You don't really get that kind of character DEVELOPMENT in mediums meant to be infinitely repeatable. You get CHARACTERIZATION, but not a whole lot actually changes (and when it does, things inevitably snap back to status quo). This cycle manifests itself as constant status quo advancement, sometimes called the "illusion" of change".

Obviously excepting the radical changes made to USM's supporting cast (hip Aunt May, punk adopted sister Gwen, bookworm MJ, the various superfriends, hell, throw Kong in there) and the freedom Bendis was given in establishing his own continuity, Ultimate Peter's got NOTHING to distinguish himself from Classic Peter Parker as an avenue for telling Spider-Man stories. If one allows for the variances that occur when a character is helmed by multiple writers, they are fundamentally the same serialized character in every one of their appearances. This "oversimplification" bit misses the point that these characters function differently than characters in different types of fiction. IN SERIALIZED FICTION, things like age, supporting cast, grade in school, current love interest, connected-ness to the outside world, public image, etc, are part of the status quo of the book, not what make up the character. You can you strip Ultimate Peter and Classic Peter down to whatever resolution you need to to be satisfied that they are the same character, and they will remain fundamentally the same, whereas Peter and Miles will have key differences that differentiate them from one another.

I'm not saying you don't lose some things transitioning from USM to ASM. The most apparent are:
-The ability to "build on" story elements that were unique to Ultimate Peter's long term continuity
-The supporting cast that he built from the ground up
-The "ultimized" look and character motivations of Peter's villains (I swear, I just want Classic Osborn to turn himself into Ultimate Green Goblin already lol)
-The status quo of USM as the time of DoSM (super friends, family knows identity, not well connected in the world, in school, etc)

Minus those though, the same stories that future writers would have told in USM through Ultimate Peter Parker CAN be told in ASM via Classic Peter Parker (not to mention the fact that the latter two exceptions could be remedied using a transition story to establish the necessary status quo... Maybe even the second, come to think of it. There's no reason a character like Kong or Ultimate Gwen couldn't be introduced to 616's supporting cast). If losing bookworm MJ (or what have you) is a deal breaker for your Spider-Man experience, then yeah, there's nothing out there for you anymore, but the core of the book lives on elsewhere is the point anyone is trying to make here.

This is why the Ultimate line HAS to differentiate itself from 616; there's absolutely ZERO reason for Marvel to fracture their storytelling platform for any of their several characters otherwise. That's why DoSM->Miles is so brilliant from a creative management perspective; it preserves the parts of USM that can't be easily replicated elsewhere (basically it's continuity and ultimized villains) while distinguishing itself from the other Spider-Man adventures floating around out there (not to mention the integrity it gives Bendis' run with Peter in general, but that's another subject entirely =D).

[John Zaleski]

Read The Amazing Spider-Man then, it's the same character, but his past is just different.

This is not true.

Then, by definition, it's not the same character, just the same name.

This is true.

I probably would be reading UCSM if Peter wasn't killed off in such a fashion. The character had many unresolved plot lines and it was a major kick in the balls to someone who purchased 160 issues of the series to see them all go to waste.

If they removed Peter from the Spider-Man role and set him up to join the Ultimates or something like this (They were definitely setting this plot line up after Ultimatum) I would not have dropped Ultimate U. I wouldn't have been opposed to reading the Miles character as much as I hate it now.

[MarvelMaster616]

I would definitely be reading Ultimate Spider-Man if Peter was still alive, but not Spider-Man. I would actually be much more willing to give Miles Morales a chance if Peter was still alive because it makes him less of a replacement character and more of a legacy character like Mayday Parker in Spider-Girl. My biggest problem with Miles is that he's a replacement character that was pulled out of thin air and imposed into Ultimate Spider-Man with no previous background story to speak of. If Peter was still alive and unable to be Spider-Man for whatever reason, that would allow Miles to more naturally evolve into the role. It would also put Peter into new situations that could lead to many new stories. But we'll never see those stories and I can never take Miles seriously. There's just not much you can do to make yourself care about a replacement character with no personality or charisma.

[Plawsky]

You can you strip Ultimate Peter and Classic Peter down to whatever resolution you need to to be satisfied that they are the same character, and they will remain fundamentally the same, whereas Peter and Miles will have key differences that differentiate them from one another.

I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't make them the same character. I'm not saying the two versions of the character don't have similarities. What I'm saying is you can't find Ultimate Peter in Amazing Spider-man. You can't find Ultimate Wolverine in Jason Aaron's book, you can't find Ultimate Cap in Avengers, and you can't find Ultimate Reed Richards in Fantastic Four. In fact, Hickman's use of both versions of Reed at the same time demonstrates exactly how different the two characters are.

Minus those though, the same stories that future writers would have told in USM through Ultimate Peter Parker CAN be told in ASM via Classic Peter Parker (not to mention the fact that the latter two exceptions could be remedied using a transition story to establish the necessary status quo... Maybe even the second, come to think of it. There's no reason a character like Kong or Ultimate Gwen couldn't be introduced to 616's supporting cast). If losing bookworm MJ (or what have you) is a deal breaker for your Spider-Man experience, then yeah, there's nothing out there for you anymore, but the core of the book lives on elsewhere is the point anyone is trying to make here.

That's possible, I suppose, but it relies on one big thing. The Amazing Spider-man writers would have to force the USM status quo into the book for it to work. I can't see an immature Peter Parker dealing with the issues of having a female clone in Amazing Spider-man without them changing 616-Peter.

This is why the Ultimate line HAS to differentiate itself from 616; there's absolutely ZERO reason for Marvel to fracture their storytelling platform for any of their several characters otherwise. That's why DoSM->Miles is so brilliant from a creative management perspective; it preserves the parts of USM that can't be easily replicated elsewhere (basically it's continuity and ultimized villains) while distinguishing itself from the other Spider-Man adventures floating around out there (not to mention the integrity it gives Bendis' run with Peter in general, but that's another subject entirely =D).

So why shouldn't they do that for every character? Should we get new versions of Iron Man, Rogue, and Captain America in order to make the Ultimate Universe more different?

Keep in mind that I have nothing against Miles. I support their decision to kill Peter, though I think it could have been handled better. But the transition was not necessary to make USM and ASM two different things; they had already been that for a decade.

[Number_5]

There is a whole lot going on in this thread!

Ok, so first, legacy vs. replacement characters:

Where do we get this distinction? I feel like it comes exclusively from Miles haters who refuse to label him as somebody taking on the Spidey legacy, so they sneer at him with the "replacement" label. Honestly, where is it written that deceased predecessor = replacement, living predecessor = legacy? Miles made a conscious decision to take up the mantle of Spider-Man. He is a legacy character. TV tropes agrees.

As for Peter = Peter = Miles:

I agree with the idea that 616 Peter and Ultimate Peter are very similar characters. Yes, their worlds and their supporting casts are vastly different, however, I have little trouble viewing 616 Peter as an older and (due to OMD shenanigans, only just slightly) wiser version of Ultimate Peter. The main differences, besides age, seem to be angst level and recklessness, both of which Ultimate Peter has more. Still, these can both be attributed to Ultimate Peter's age. You may point out that when 616 Peter was 16, he did not act this way. I will point out that Ultimate Peter is a much more modern take on teenage Peter, and if 616 Peter would have first been written in the new millenium, he would be written the same way (angsty and reckless, that is).

As for Ultimate Peter vs Miles, they are actually quite different. It's been said before, but some key differences in their personalities are clear from the start. Peter got into a fight with Flash, Miles avoided a fight and hid. Peter joined the basketball team to gain popularity and tried to make money as a wrestler, Miles tried to pretend he never got powers. Peter behaved like a self-centered dick and indirectly got his uncle killed, Miles behaved like a coward and very indirectly let Peter get killed. Peter threw quips at angry unappreciative cops before swinging away, Miles got scared and deferred to authority before making his escape. Peter (and I'm sorry, this is the one thing I didn't like about him) bitched and whined about everything constantly, so far Miles just quietly moped a bit.

All in all, Peter was more outgoing, and yes, a tiny bit more selfish (not in the end, duh), than Miles. Miles is much more reserved, and worries more about the feelings of others, at least in the beginning. The costume has helped Miles come out of his shell a bit, sure, but not to the extent it helped Peter gain confidence. Not yet, anyway.

[Plawsky]

I will point out that Ultimate Peter is a much more modern take on teenage Peter, and if 616 Peter would have first been written in the new millenium, he would be written the same way (angsty and reckless, that is).

So your point is that if 616 Peter had been written differently, they would have been the same.

[Number_5]

So your point is that if 616 Peter had been written differently, they would have been the same.

Not at all. What I'm saying is that 616 Peter is already written differently than he used to be.

Pick up an Essential collection (any essential collection, this isn't only true for Spider-Man) and see for yourself. I'm sure you already know this, but when 616 Peter was 16, comics were different. No disrespect, but that innocent Stan Lee-golly-gee-cheesy-explain-to-myself-out-loud-exactly-what-I'm-doing-as-I'm-doing-it style simply doesn't fly today. On the other hand, if 16-year-old 616 Peter would have whined and complained as much in his classic book as Ultimate Peter did, he'd have caught a smack from Aunt May herself.

Obviously comic book writing styles have changed and evolved over the decades. My point is that the 616 Peter that we've had for the past decade or so may have a more fitting younger self in Ultimate Peter than he does in his own 616 younger self from the 60s. Again, I'm not trying to trash the classics or anything, I'm just saying that writing styles have changed drastically. Spidey and other 616 characters, such as Iron Man, have already had numerous retcons for this, and other reasons. I'm not calling for a young Spidey retcon or anything, I'm simply saying that Ultimate Peter wouldn't be a bad template for it.

[Samorai_black]

This may have been asked already but whatever, I'm curious. To everyone that likes or dislikes Miles as Spiderman, Would you read USM if Peter was still alive after DOSM? Since his identity was discovered maybe Nick Fury would have to do some covering up for him and have Miles be the new Spiderman in new york for a few years. Maybe s.h.i.e.l.d. would fake his death and only close family/friends would know. Then he could either join the Ultimates with Spiderwoman or join Aunt May and Gwen in France, and be a French superhero for a little bit.

Also how do you think this would effect the upcoming events like Spidermen,divided we fall,etc?

I agree with what Plawsky for the most part.

I'm still reading it with a dead Peter, so I'd certainly be reading it if he was alive but not Spider-man. However, I'm not sure how long they could actually keep that up. For Peter to give up being Spider-man permanently would go against everything that makes him Spider-man. He's not exhibiting his trademarked responsibility if he just lets Divided We Fall (whatever it might be) happen without putting the mask back on.

I would still read this book becuase I enjoy the writing and the stories that have been told but if Peter had not died I would have started getting this book in trades or waiting till the whole arc was finished before I read it. In my opinion though there is pretty much nothing that could have been as great as Peter's death in terms of something new/different for the character.

I think Spider-men would have been better with Peter but I still wouldnt read it. Im not sure how divided we fall would be but with Peter and his bigger connection to the characters it would have been great to see what he would do and seeing how he felt about Kitty, and Bobby and the bond that(could/might have?) grew between Peter and Cap would make for any even more interesting story.

[Overhazard]

Sure I would, but I agree with others here that peter wouldn't give up being spider man willingly. He would have to be either crippled or maimed. Also, 616 Peter and Ultimate Peter to me are like Supergirl and Power Girl, they are only the same person on the surface. I don't hate Miles. I want to like him, but marvel really tried to oversell me on how "cool" and "awesome" he is, when he hasn't even been around for a year, for me it was just a turn off.

[Xistel]

I can't agree with the whole "you want peter parker, read ASM" thing. They are similar characters, but our connection as readers towards Peter Parker in the UU is not nearly the same as for pete in 616. because they have different backgrounds, different stories, and we stuck with him through think and thin. Sure the are similar. but it's not the same thing, especially because of the relationship you've created with the character

A lot of people make this discussion an "either/or" situation.

I personally defend Miles should exist, just not as spider-man.

[Wayne 26]

I would but I think that It would really break the UU's rule by dead means dead. As well as that the Death of Spider-man was one of the best spidey arc's ever and I think that bringing him back would damage a great spidey story since Bendis really did do a great job putting a end to the Ult. Peter Parker story. Having said that though I loved Ult. Peter and seeing him come back one day would make my stars for sure. If Miles was to continue as Spider-man I think that Peter parker should make a team of Spider-man that protect the world! Ultimate Spider-man Inc anyone?