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  1. #181
    ... Dr. Sonic's Avatar
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    I think that one of the things that made gambit such a cool character back in the 90's was the sense of mystery to him. People didn't know his background, whether he was a good guy or a bad guy, whether he was the X-traitor or not, was he Scott and Alex's long lost brother, et cetera. The Trial of Gambit spelled a lot of this out and, while it made for a good story, it diminished a lot of the intrigue and mystery and the character began to fall to the wayside in terms of popularity pretty quickly. Asmus is going to need to figure a way of reintroducing this sense of intrigue to Gambit, make him a mysterious person again. I'd recommend suspending any development of the love triangle with Rogue as well as the Death/Gambit business; let those two plotlines simmer a bit on the back burner. And instead focus on something new that'll bring back the feeling of mystery and moral ambiguity.

  2. #182
    Words from the future. Scarlet Silence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halla View Post
    Jean Grey hasn't been in the X-Books for ten years now, and Marvel has kept stringing along her fans by suggesting that major events would bring her back to them. They've kept teasing that Hope has something to do with her return, which has kept people buying their books. It's kind of a tease.
    I believe what you are trying to say i that you feel teased. The fact is Marvel has not teased that Jean Grey would be returning with many, if not any, of the events that have followed her death in the mid-2000s, and rather they have been hinting that Hope is connected to the Phoenix Force, not the character of Jean Grey. The the two get confused by fans is merely the prerogative of said fans.

    Having said that, I do agree Jean Grey is a valuable character, but she has achieved a value no other character in the canon can: Her legacy and her judgment, which is present in the guilt of many characters, drive other characters and have eclipsed Xavier's dream at this point in the grand saga. Xavier and Magneto can no longer achieve what Jean Grey has in death. To resurrect her would end that.

    As to giving each character time to allow their story to breathe rather than jamming it into a crossover, I agree. The problem is that Gambit hasn't been given that room for years now, despite there being that opportunity in books like Legacy. Would it really have hurt to shift the focus off Rogue for like three issues, and resolve Deathbit properly as Carey kept saying he would?
    I agree with you. It seems to be that Mike Carey had more than ample room to revisit important plots in the members of his chosen cast, then develop said members of his cast, rather than dwelling on the angst and passive-aggression of Rogue and Magneto, and disjointed tales of Legion, Emplate, and the Children of the Vault. We all know Mike Carey is an excellent writer and has given us some very good X-Men stories during his tenure, so perhaps this was due to editorial mandate?

    Gambit's an archetype, though. He's the morally ambiguous character who ends up doing the right thing despite himself. That sort of character is timeless, and has been around since the Odyssey and Iliad without seemingly growing stale.
    It would be best for his character if the writer ignored his connections with the X-Men for a time, spares us the soliloquies about what it means to be an X-Man, and simultaneously cauterized the dangling plots such as his Death persona while bringing the character up to date for a more mature, learned reader. I feel if any team can do that, it is that of Asmus and Mann.

    Quote Originally Posted by halla View Post
    It *is* Marvel's fault that they keep taking advantage of that good will, thinking that it's an inexhaustible resource and that they can keep on exploiting it with little reward. At some point, people will just walk away. I know Gambit fans - members of that precious, elusive female demographic too - who have walked away from the X-Books in disgust, where once they would have recommended them to their friends. Hell, I'd been reading since I was a young teenager, and I left the fandom for years because I got tired of Marvel's tactics. I only came back to X-Men because the DCU relaunch got me back into comics and I decided to see what was happening in the Marvel universe.
    Marvel may have lost a small number of readers due to some of the stories they have published, but they are not taking advantage of good will. They are simply publishing stories with characters they own in a serialized format. They cannot keep telling the same stories with the same characters for decades. That is not why their books are popular.

    Sales are not down because of a lack of Jean Grey or a mistreatment of Gambit. Fewer people have been buying comic books. It is an industry-wide phenomenon. What you have to remember is: Sales are not dangerously low, but rather they are not what they used to be when sales were absurdly high, which was in the '90s.

    They seem to be doing rather well. Many people spend their money of the books Marvel publishes. Marvel gives their buyers what they want to purchase. Supply meets demand.
    Last edited by Scarlet Silence; 04-16-2012 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #183
    Veteran Member Regino's Avatar
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    I hope Gambit joins the Marauders again. It's the only time he's interesting.
    Pot+Kettle - "This post went so full retard that it had to be quoted."

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regino View Post
    I hope Gambit joins the Marauders again. It's the only time he's interesting.
    I certainly wouldn't say it was the only time that Gambit was interesting, but he did fit in well with The Marauders and further exploring his ties to them might be cool material for the ongoing. I could see Gambit being hired by one or more of the Marauders to steal back their genetic samples from Sinister so that they could feel like singular entities again and not just clones of clones.

  5. #185
    New Member Jimbojones88's Avatar
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    Yes! Finally! Woo hoo!

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home made ectoplasm View Post
    that's just an average day for most x men
    Asking this seriously, has Marvel done this to many other females in the MU as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shogun View Post
    who are you referring to?
    Magneto of course.

  7. #187
    Veteran Member Regino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Sonic View Post
    I certainly wouldn't say it was the only time that Gambit was interesting, but he did fit in well with The Marauders and further exploring his ties to them might be cool material for the ongoing. I could see Gambit being hired by one or more of the Marauders to steal back their genetic samples from Sinister so that they could feel like singular entities again and not just clones of clones.
    You just think he's hot. Admit it.
    Pot+Kettle - "This post went so full retard that it had to be quoted."

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regino View Post
    You just think he's hot. Admit it.
    Nah, my man crush is reserved for John Constantine only. Gambit is just one of my favorite X-Men. But I'll admit to often liking some of the most bemoaned and frequently disliked characters (Hellion, Dazzler, Namor, Idie, etc.).

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by halla View Post
    I feel like I have to buy A HUNDRED copies just to send a message to Marvel.
    I'm filling a swimming pool with issue one and diving into it. Asmus will get a new house out of me.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Silence View Post
    I believe what you are trying to say i that you feel teased. The fact is Marvel has not teased that Jean Grey would be returning with many, if not any, of the events that have followed her death in the mid-2000s, and rather they have been hinting that Hope is connected to the Phoenix Force, not the character of Jean Grey. The the two get confused by fans is merely the prerogative of said fans.

    Having said that, I do agree Jean Grey is a valuable character, but she has achieved a value no other character in the canon can: Her legacy and her judgment, which is present in the guilt of many characters, drive other characters and have eclipsed Xavier's dream at this point in the grand saga. Xavier and Magneto can no longer achieve what Jean Grey has in death. To resurrect her would end that.
    If the fans get confused, it's with a great deal of encouragement by Marvel. The creative teams have given multiple interviews in which they've hinted that Jean Grey's return will involve Hope in some way, and these interviews always tend to coincide with big events. For instance, this is Quesada in 2009 before Second Coming, when asked whether Jean would return: “Let’s just say that Hope’s got red hair and green eyes and leave it at that.”

    I agree that her death has served a narrative purpose and provided motivations for the characters. I actually think she is serving a valuable purpose. My issue isn't with her being dead, as much as with the constant teases about her return that are never fulfilled. But then I'm not a massive Jean Grey fan. I like her well enough, but she's not an absolute favourite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Silence View Post
    I agree with you. It seems to be that Mike Carey had more than ample room to revisit important plots in the members of his chosen cast, then develop said members of his cast, rather than dwelling on the angst and passive-aggression of Rogue and Magneto, and disjointed tales of Legion, Emplate, and the Children of the Vault. We all know Mike Carey is an excellent writer and has given us some very good X-Men stories during his tenure, so perhaps this was due to editorial mandate?
    Perhaps. It's hard to know who is responsible for deciding what goes into the books, though I will say that I suspect Carey would have had more control than most, given that he's quite a prestigious writer. The end result is the same, though. Whether it's the editors or the writer, most of the characters in that book were neglected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Silence View Post
    Marvel may have lost a small number of readers due to some of the stories they have published, but they are not taking advantage of good will. They are simply publishing stories with characters they own in a serialized format. They cannot keep telling the same stories with the same characters for decades. That is not why their books are popular.

    Sales are not down because of a lack of Jean Grey or a mistreatment of Gambit. Fewer people have been buying comic books. It is an industry-wide phenomenon. What you have to remember is: Sales are not dangerously low, but rather they are not what they used to be when sales were absurdly high, which was in the '90s.
    They seem to be doing rather well. Many people spend their money of the books Marvel publishes. Marvel gives their buyers what they want to purchase. Supply meets demand.[/QUOTE]

    If fewer people are buying comic books, it surely means that people have walked away since the 90's. I would venture that fan unhappiness is one reason that people walk away from a book; it's the reason I walked away and stopped buying like six of their books a month. I know many Gambit fans who have done the same. And, yeah, anecdotes aren't data, but they do paint a picture.
    Obviously, it's not the only reason - the economy at the moment is probably playing a big part too, as people cut down on luxuries. So, they want to keep fans who do have the disposable income.

    And, yes, I think they do need to shake up the status quo occasionally, but I question whether that means downplaying or eliminating characters who have huge and loyal fan bases like Jean and Gambit. They manage to tell new stories with old characters like Cyclops and Wolverine; it would be unthinkable for them to get rid of Logan in the name of a shake-up, and Gambit was near his popularity at one point. I think they're realising their mistake with Gambit, and so are bringing us the most glorious series ever as a result.

    Lastly, I wonder how well they're doing when Aquaman is consistently outselling X-Men. Aquaman's a great book and I buy it, but . . . it's Aquaman. It's hardly a core DC book.

  11. #191
    ... Dr. Sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halla View Post
    Lastly, I wonder how well they're doing when Aquaman is consistently outselling X-Men. Aquaman's a great book and I buy it, but . . . it's Aquaman. It's hardly a core DC book.
    I think DC's Aquaman is a good example of a concerted effort to make a character work that actually worked out (or that is working thus far). The recipe is to take top tier writing and top tier illustration and apply it to what has not really been a top tier character. What Marvel and DC have both done in the past is start off a series with a great writer/artist tandem, have the first story arc or two be great, and then pass on the writing and illustration duties to lessor talents, assuming that they have achieved a reader base that will simply follow the character regardless of who doing the writing and art. With the shrinking market, this formula just doesn't work and it leads to book cancelations. I mean, Daredevil is a great book right now and has totally reinvigorated Daredevil as a great character of the MU. When Mark Waid, Marcos Martin, Paolo Manuel Rivera decide to move on to new projects, however, it will be up to Marvel to replace them with a similarly talented team, otherwise Daredevil will once more devolve to mediocrity (and the exact same thing will happen with Aquaman once Geoff Johns decides to move on).

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