Plans for Moon Knight?

[okpanic]

Nope. You're mistaking means for an end again. Me punching you in the face would be a means, but without a reason it lacks for an end. A fight between Count Vertigo junior & Moon Knight is completely without an end, if it lacks for a reason. He got into a fight with this guys because he um... he had a... um, he was.... ah.... Wait, what was he doing again the resulted in Moon Knight getting involved? Oh thats right, the crazy voices in his head told him to.

Ugh. Why can't a situation just be? That fact that you personally don't care that the story was valid enough for your own tastes has no bearing on the representation of the character. Moon Knight held his own against a character that has been shown to be many power tiers higher, that's pure canon now. That simple point alone, means for an end or not, is a new benchmark now for what MK is capable of. He's been shown he can play with the big boys. That's it. The end.

[Treqqor]

not only do i own the entire series, i own nearly a complete run of Moonknight, from the pre-issue 01 up.

Then read them instead of just owning them.
Issue 1, Hyde loses the head, issue 2, Snapdragon apologizes to Nefaria for the head getting lost, at the time, it's a genuine Ultron head and potentially VERY dangerous, Moon Knight knows the potential is there, whether or not the AI is active or not.

um... Just one with some proven skill, who aren't just phoning it in. Don't care who as long as they fit the kind of story they are looking to tell. A writer whose preference suits the sub genre, an artist who likewise suits the narrative style.

Is this comment for real? Brian Michael Bendis hasn't proven himself? Are you serious? I don't even know what to say about this. Even if you hate him (which you obviously do) his resume PROVES he's a capable writer and can sell books. And which time did he show he struggles with this type of genre, his respected Daredevil run you ignored? Jynx? Alias? Man, you take the word "hater" to its ultimate level.

And I'm not gonna comment on art since it's so subjective and you seem to know little about the fine arts, but Alex Maleev is super talented.

[The Batman]

Then read them instead of just owning them.
Issue 1, Hyde loses the head, issue 2, Snapdragon apologizes to Nefaria for the head getting lost, at the time, it's a genuine Ultron head and potentially VERY dangerous, Moon Knight knows the potential is there, whether or not the AI is active or not.

Nevermind that even if Nefaria had only planned to have the indestructible robot body reprogrammed to act as his enforcer, and Madame Masque's reaction to hearing what Nefaria was involved in points to it probably being something a bit more nefarious than that but I digress, it's still deadly and dangerous and needs to be stopped.

Is this comment for real? Brian Michael Bendis hasn't proven himself? Are you serious? I don't even know what to say about this. Even if you hate him (which you obviously do) his resume PROVES he's a capable writer and can sell books. And which time did he show he struggles with this type of genre, his respected Daredevil run you ignored? Jynx? Alias? Man, you take the word "hater" to its ultimate level.

Yeah, looking at his body of work and Bendis seems an obvious choice to put on a character like Moon Knight, maybe too obvious and to on the nose. On paper at least, the only person I can think of right now that'd be more ideal would be Ed Brubaker.

And I'm not gonna comment on art since it's so subjective and you seem to know little about the fine arts, but Alex Maleev is super talented.

Oh certainly. Not the flashiest guy out there, his figure work, gesture and posing, and facial expressions are phenomenal.

[Umbra]

No, he is very much Batman. I'm not sure how much of a background you have with the Shadow, but the two are pretty different: An this is from someone who not only owns the reprints of the original pulp stories, but also owns every episode of the radio play & the 1994 movie. An i just picked up the first issue of the new comic. Moonknight is much more like Batman. But like i've already said, i'm using batman as a widget, a placeholder for a concept. In this case i'm using it as a placeholder for the hero-by-night concept, that has a long pedigree in narrative fiction: from Zorro & to a lesser degree the Shadow, through characters like the batman.

I think it's a mistake to make him "Batman". So agree with the poster "the batman" I get how you are using it...sort of like a archetype... Thing is, Marvel has other characters that fit the "batman"archetype also and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

There is only one Batman.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Ugh. Why can't a situation just be?

Because its narrative fiction. If you have something that just is no ones going to purchase it, because there is no incentive to purchase it. If you have a plot that is a means without and end who cares. It'd be like having a 2 hour 30 minute movie that was just buildings exploding. Just B roll of buildings exploding. Sure i love action films where shit explodes, but b roll of just explosions with out any reason is significantly less interesting. A fist fight without any real reason is exactly the same.

That fact that you personally don't care that the story was valid enough for your own tastes has no bearing on the representation of the character.

No it doesn't. It has no baring on the fact that this voulme was demonstrably bad. It was a poor story,executed poorly.

Moon Knight held his own against a character that has been shown to be many power tiers higher, that's pure canon now. That simple point alone, means for an end or not, is a new benchmark now for what MK is capable of. He's been shown he can play with the big boys. That's it. The end.

No it showed that people got killed & he gotten beaten by that same character, having to call in the Avengers for the win. That doesn't show MK being awesome, it shows him being generally incompotent. That would be like the real Batman having to call in the Justice League to help him win.

Is this comment for real? Brian Michael Bendis hasn't proven himself? Are you serious? I don't even know what to say about this. Even if you hate him (which you obviously do) his resume PROVES he's a capable writer and can sell books. And which time did he show he struggles with this type of genre, his respected Daredevil run you ignored? Jynx? Alias? Man, you take the word "hater" to its ultimate level.

Actually i don't hate Bendis, I'm a huge powers fan. But ever since Dark Avengers finished (which i was also a huge fan of), he's been phoning in his work on all the books he's on. His Avengers stuff has become pure torture recently, as he sleep walks the characters through asanine, uninspired plots, when they have plots at all, where he ends up turning every other issues into a talking heads book. Even Powers itself took almost a year to get a new issues in a series where the last 2 story lines have been almost completely void of interesting storytelling.

Bendis is coming off as a little burnt out at the moment, which is probably pretty accurate, considering he writing no less then what? Six books a month?

And I'm not gonna comment on art since it's so subjective and you seem to know little about the fine arts, but Alex Maleev is super talented.

Actually no: While artistic merit is subjective, technical skill within the medium is judged objectively. An while Alex Maleev is indeed super talented, it doesn't mean that his personal art style was suitable for this kind of book. In fact Alex Maleev is considerably to over-wrought for this kind of story telling, its more suitable for something like Daredevil. But for a character like Moon Knight, i would have chosen an artist with a style similiar to Mark Bagley though an artist like Guillem March would have also been sufficient too.

I think it's a mistake to make him "Batman". So agree with the poster "the batman" I get how you are using it...sort of like a archetype... Thing is, Marvel has other characters that fit the "batman"archetype also and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

Actually marvel has had a few Batman characters, but they don't seem to be using them. The Shade, Prowler, Nightowl, Cloak & Dagger. For some reason Marvel just can't seem to get a Batman character up and running, even though its one of the easiest character archetypes to write.

[Treqqor]

^^^
Daredevil fits just as much of the Batman archetype as Moon Knight does, maybe moreso (street level, grim and gritty, no real powers, parent was murdered in effect creating the hero...). He just isn't rich as Wayne and has a more interesting personal life.

Odd that you find Alex Maleev to work fine for one in theory but not the other.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

^^^
Daredevil fits just as much of the Batman archetype as Moon Knight does, maybe moreso (street level, grim and gritty, no real powers, parent was murdered in effect creating the hero...). He just isn't rich as Wayne and has a more interesting personal life.

Never said he didn't. I said he didn't fit this kind of storytelling. It better suites a location like Hall Kitchen, where everything is meant to be a little fuzzy around the edges. But for a character like Moon Knight you need something with more nuance, especially when the art is meant to be telling more then half of the story, given how much Bendis is leaning on the art side of the story (especially with the crazy people inside his head aspects).

Odd that you find Alex Maleev to work fine for one in theory but not the other.

Not really all that odd. I like the work of leonardo di vinci too, doesn't mean i want to read an x-men comic book illustrated in his style. Different art styles work better for some stories over other art styles: There are many artists that had an art style that would have worked fine for this story & character; but i don't personally think that Alex Maleev's did this one justice (not saying he's not a good artist, just saying his art style isn't the one i would have gone with for this). Mike Deodato would possibly have been a good choice, if Marvel could have convinced him to use less establishing shot & more close up/action shots.

EDIT: But thats all moot, as the main issue is not the artists style, but the lack of plotting & plot consistency over the life of the character, even in the micro. A plan greater then "moon Knight gets arse kicked while being crazy" is required to make him an interesting character in execution. As far as i can see, its the only thing stopping Moon Knight from being a smash hit for Marvel. I mean for a company that is trying to make money, they seem to be wasting this characters potential.

[The Batman]

Mike Deodato is a tremendous artist with a fantastic work ethic. Watching him work is a real treat. He's got a knack for creating bold, brash, and powerfully dynamic superhero characters and strong camera angles.

What he is not, is a subtler and more nuanced artist than Alex Maleev.

[Umbra]

^^^
Daredevil fits just as much of the Batman archetype as Moon Knight does, maybe moreso (street level, grim and gritty, no real powers, parent was murdered in effect creating the hero...). He just isn't rich as Wayne and has a more interesting personal life.

Odd that you find Alex Maleev to work fine for one in theory but not the other.

Yes Daredevil, Black Panther, Nighthawk.

I still think it's a huge mistake. DD is pretty much his own character too. He's not a genius, he's not super rich. Writers correctly have not tied him too closely...other then the built in similarities these characters have...they need to move in their own direction. Otherwise, the will be looked at as a cheap knock off.

I get what Kelly is saying though. Just wants to see Marc shine, instead of being crapped on...be more formidable, more compelling. I agree totally on that point.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Mike Deodato is a tremendous artist with a fantastic work ethic. Watching him work is a real treat. He's got a knack for creating bold, brash, and powerfully dynamic superhero characters and strong camera angles.

What he is not, is a subtler and more nuanced artist than Alex Maleev.

He is when what you are looking for is not just the big strokes, but also the detail work. Alex Maleev loses a lot of the detail work in his stuff, so in this case, Mike Deodato is exactly the kind of nuance this story would have thrived under. But again this is mostly a moot point since
A. The book is already completed & cancelled
B. Its the writing that needs the most work, not the art work.

But really this doesn't really make any difference to Moon Knight as a whole. Moon Knight needs a consistent character view, with streamlinning of the superflous nonsense & with a consistant narrative over view: Kind of like what Wolfman did for Teen Titans back in the day. That alone would elevate Moon Knight to the position of A list character for Marvel. But Marvel has a tendency to not let anyone really get any import if its not in a main book. Which in its self is one of there main problems with there current business model.

[This-is-the-Zodiac-speaking]

Not a big Bendis or Maleev fan but I did enjoy this run, issue 7 or 8, cant remember which one it was with the fight with Nefaria was severe...really enjoyed it.

[okpanic]

Because its narrative fiction. If you have something that just is no ones going to purchase it, because there is no incentive to purchase it. If you have a plot that is a means without and end who cares.

You do realise we're talking about the American superhero comic book medium, where we've had stories about character run for over half a decade with no finality in sight?

No it doesn't. It has no baring on the fact that this voulme was demonstrably bad. It was a poor story,executed poorly.

In your opinion, which is a long way from proven fact.

No it showed that people got killed & he gotten beaten by that same character, having to call in the Avengers for the win. That doesn't show MK being awesome, it shows him being generally incompotent. That would be like the real Batman having to call in the Justice League to help him win.

Actually no. How many times did Moon Knight outsmart Nefaria over the course of 12 issues? By the way you argue, one would imagine MK was solidly beaten within the first 3 issues and pressing a big red button for Cap's help. He wasn't. I'll say it again: he lasted through Nefaria's flunkies - Night Shift, Snapdragon, Madame Masque and Nefaria himself a few times, with a small team consisting of only Echo and Buck. That is not the definition of incompetent. The fact Echo was lost legitimises how Nefaria was that much of a threat.
And the fact Moony called the Avengers in the end after he laid a final trap (which uses cunning, traditionally) shows that he was smart enough to outwit Nefaria one last time and to know to pull the pin on the whole operation.

Meanwhile, the Batman comparison is ridiculous, considering they're completey different characters and the fact Bats is basically a walking Deus Ex Machina who can beat up Superman, just because. If I had to choose between Moon Knight being like that or a more grounded hero that can be beaten down but realistically hold his own, I'll take the latter.

To review: he lured and found out who was the kingpin of L.A. and most important who it was after the Ultron head. He then laid a trap to catch them. And moreover, he --->survived<---. My point still stands.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

You do realise we're talking about the American superhero comic book medium, where we've had stories about character run for over half a decade with no finality in sight?

Finality has nothing to do with having a plot that includes a means without an end.

In your opinion, which is a long way from proven fact.

no, it was demonstrably bad. Its not opinion, its objective fact. Thats why the word demonstrable was added. It failed to tell a story where the narrative pay off was worth anything, since they devalued any potential sacrifice by echo. They failed to characterize Moon Knight or Echo at anything but the "sleep walking" level that Bendis'es work has be characterised with recently & the actual writing was absymal (external to the fact that the story was bad). It was demonstrably a poorly written volume.

Actually no. How many times did Moon Knight outsmart Nefaria over the course of 12 issues?

He doesn't outsmart Nefaria, not once. He takes him by suprise by being crazier then normal. An as soon as the shock and awe tactics are over, Nafria shows up and cream him. Right after killing echo. That'd be a grand total of zero times in the entire volume does Moon Knight "outsmart" Nefaria.

By the way you argue, one would imagine MK was solidly beaten within the first 3 issues and pressing a big red button for Cap's help. He wasn't. I'll say it again: he lasted through Nefaria's flunkies - Night Shift, Snapdragon, Madame Masque and Nefaria himself a few times, with a small team consisting of only Echo and Buck. That is not the definition of incompetent. The fact Echo was lost legitimises how Nefaria was that much of a threat.

Except he does get beaten. It takes him, echo & a third person to beat a group of also ran jobbers, right after he bungles an undercover operation. He then get his arse kicked by echo (issue 5), the avengers arrive in issue 6 & then for some reason they vanish completely, leaving the supposedly dangerous Ultron head behind for no apparent reason. Then there is a whole heap of fighting where Echo is killed & in issue 10 LM steals the Ultron head. Then issue 12 rolls around & the avengers show back up to take the Ultron head because apparently its not dangerous anymore. So essentially the Avengers showed up to not take the series McGuffin even they have phones & yet don't stick around to beat up the bad guy, but then get called back in once the not important but MK thinks its important Ultron head gets stolen... MK then get thrashed by Nefaria & then the Avengers re-show up to pull MK's arse out of the fire at the last moment, only to be told "yeah this robot head, not really all that important.... An everyone goes home... Completely forgetting about the robot body.

I think i may file this story in the long box under "Moon Knight: The tale of the wonderful non sequitars". Like i said, this story just doesn't make sense, even at the most basic cognitive level.

And the fact Moony called the Avengers in the end after he laid a final trap (which uses cunning, traditionally) shows that he was smart enough to outwit Nefaria one last time and to know to pull the pin on the whole operation.

An yet not smart enough to utilise the Avengers before Echo gets killed, even though they physically show up half way through the story. That’s not smart, that’s incompetent.

Meanwhile, the Batman comparison is ridiculous, considering they're completey different characters and the fact Bats is basically a walking Deus Ex Machina who can beat up Superman, just because. If I had to choose between Moon Knight being like that or a more grounded hero that can be beaten down but realistically hold his own, I'll take the latter.

Kind of getting sick of saying this: I'm using the term BATMAN as a widget. In case you don't know what a widget is, its a placeholder term for a larger concept. As has been explained three times already Batman is being used as a widget for the hero of the night character, ala Batman (plus the extended bat-family), Zorro, The Shadow, The Spider, Doc Savage & any number of other characters: with all that that long narrative pedigree in entails.

To review: he lured and found out who was the kingpin of L.A. and most important who it was after the Ultron head. He then laid a trap to catch them. And moreover, he --->survived<---. My point still stands.

Congrats: I once survived a midterm test... Still failed the mid-term though.

No matter what way you cut it, MK stumbles through a half arsed plot, which goes no where & took 12 issues to get there.

EDIT: This honestly read like Bendis was writing it between trying to write something more important... Like he just couldn't be bothered putting any real effort in.

[Bison4Life]

The only thing that can save the "franchise" so to speak would be to pair him up with someone ala Power Man / Iron Fist. Got this most recent Bendis run and the original when it came out. Little improvement over the decades. My first thought would be Punisher but they cancel each other out. Dr. Strange could work on supernatural level but that would have limited appeal. He's just a blah "hero" to me with a limited skillset and generic back story that most comic readers seem to care little for.

[Vic Vega]

Bring back the stuff that made him unique: the multiple I.Ds, the sidekicks/agents and work with THAT.

Unlike most comic book crimefighters, Moon Knight has a believable system for finding out stuff.

He uses his sidekicks as informants to get intel.

Moon Knight has done stuff like sent his live in girlfriend into a terrorist camp posing as a bodyguard.

The possibility of real harm coming to the supporting cast adds an element of danger that isn't in most books.

He's already gotten the guy who piloted his chopper crippled.