Plans for Moon Knight?

[okpanic]

What if you were a world class boxer? Still nada: Because a fight is a means to an end, not an end onto itself. Since there was no end, it was just a pointless fist fight, where someone else got killed. Thats an achievement factor of nothing, zero, diddly squat, zilch, etc etc.

If you were a relative unknown and went toe-to-toe with a world class boxer and lasted a few rounds, you'd find yourself being included in a lot more upper card fights in future promotions. Your stock is effectively raised. It's a point proven, something to hang a hat off of. That's the achievement.

I am no psychologist but I know good fight scenes and Moon Knight pretending to be other people, which actually is knocking off Taskmaster's MO, doesn't make the character memorable in a good way.

Fair point - not to mention using tech weapons belonging to other heroes/villains was the Punishers schtick for a short while also.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

If you were a relative unknown and went toe-to-toe with a world class boxer and lasted a few rounds, you'd find yourself being included in a lot more upper card fights in future promotions. Your stock is effectively raised. It's a point proven, something to hang a hat off of. That's the achievement.

Nope. You're mistaking means for an end again. Me punching you in the face would be a means, but without a reason it lacks for an end. A fight between Count Vertigo junior & Moon Knight is completely without an end, if it lacks for a reason. He got into a fight with this guys because he um... he had a... um, he was.... ah.... Wait, what was he doing again the resulted in Moon Knight getting involved? Oh thats right, the crazy voices in his head told him to.

[HostilSpike]

Good news is Gage is having Moon Knight fight Gambit in Legacy for AvX:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...age-is-talking

[Hypestyle]

I wonder if Moon Knight will show up in the Avengers cartoon..

[The Batman]

Nope. You're mistaking means for an end again. Me punching you in the face would be a means, but without a reason it lacks for an end. A fight between Count Vertigo junior & Moon Knight is completely without an end, if it lacks for a reason. He got into a fight with this guys because he um... he had a... um, he was.... ah.... Wait, what was he doing again the resulted in Moon Knight getting involved? Oh thats right, the crazy voices in his head told him to.

He was trying to keep the up-and-coming kingpin of L.A. from getting his hands on a homicidal artificial intelligence and possibly letting it loose on the world.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

He was trying to keep the up-and-coming kingpin of L.A. from getting his hands on a homicidal artificial intelligence and possibly letting it loose on the world.

Except that that turned out not to be the case... Or thats to say it was the case... Nothing but a empty case: There was no AI in it. So essentially the entire story is "crazy guy attacks low end crime lord because voice in his head told him too." This is exactly why Moon Knight has become such a shit character. He is constantly being written as sucking at everything, & even when he does succeed at something (which is rare), it's almost immediately taken away by some silly plot contrivence.

The volume is a perfect example of why this character will never be an A lister: Because he's the office punching bag. Its almost like Marvel writers are so pissed at Batman success, that they are punishing there own batman-esque character, for this unfortunate narrative pedigree.

[The Batman]

Except that that turned out not to be the case... Or thats to say it was the case... Nothing but a empty case: There was no AI in it. So essentially the entire story is "crazy guy attacks low end crime lord because voice in his head told him too."

No, that's actually a bit of disingenuous misrepresentation. And one that, with a slight bit of adjustment, could easily be applied to a good many characters we want to misrepresent. Besides, given that Nefaria was actually setting himself up as L.A.'s new kingpin and given that he was actually after an Ultron -- whether he just chose a bad Ultron or was only tasked/concerned with collecting hardware remains to be seen -- means that there was actually good enough reason for Moon Knight to go after him. That he parsed that information out through an internal dialogue between the various personalities in his head doesn't change that fact.

[Treqqor]

Its almost like Marvel writers are so pissed at Batman success, that they are punishing there own batman-esque character, for this unfortunate narrative pedigree.

Yes.
That's the only explanation.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

No, that's actually a bit of disingenuous misrepresentation. And one that, with a slight bit of adjustment, could easily be applied to a good many characters we want to misrepresent. Besides, given that Nefaria was actually setting himself up as L.A.'s new kingpin and given that he was actually after an Ultron -- whether he just chose a bad Ultron or was only tasked/concerned with collecting hardware remains to be seen -- means that there was actually good enough reason for Moon Knight to go after him. That he parsed that information out through an internal dialogue between the various personalities in his head doesn't change that fact.

I'm sorry but no. We don't see Nefaria doing a single thing until Moonknight comes along & starts messing with him, in fact the only persons who word we have that he was setting himself up as some sort of kingpin is Moonknight... A guy who is clearly not all there. Sure Nefaria probably had a small criminal operation, but new crime kingpin; doubtful.

Giving Moonknight to bendis is indicative of exactly the lack of foresight i've been talking about with this character. Pick a narrative angle, one that could possibly actually succeed over a length of time & stick with it. An lets be honest, increasingly crazy, incompotent, wannabe batman, just ain't going to sell books. If they are going to have a Moon Knight book then do it properly: Get a proper creative team (doesn't need to be a a list team, just a team of compotent writers, artists, inkers & colourists), do some much needed plotting before you even start & start builing the character back up to something that someone wants to actually read.

Yes.
That's the only explanation.

Its not the only explanation, but its a pretty good one given how often the f' up this character. I mean if you can't get Batman to sell, then you are doing something very wrong.

[The Batman]

I'm sorry but no. We don't see Nefaria doing a single thing until Moonknight comes along & starts messing with him, in fact the only persons who word we have that he was setting himself up as some sort of kingpin is Moonknight... A guy who is clearly not all there. Sure Nefaria probably had a small criminal operation, but new crime kingpin; doubtful.

Actually, we see Nefaria up to no good right from the beginning and independent of any confrontation with Moon Knight. We also see Madame Masque and Snapdragon, nevermind the rest of the Avengers confirm what he's up to. Did you not read the book? I ask because what you describe doesn't sound like what was in the book.

Giving Moonknight to bendis is indicative of exactly the lack of foresight i've been talking about with this character. Pick a narrative angle, one that could possibly actually succeed over a length of time & stick with it. An lets be honest, increasingly crazy, incompotent, wannabe batman, just ain't going to sell books. If they are going to have a Moon Knight book then do it properly: Get a proper creative team (doesn't need to be a a list team, just a team of compotent writers, artists, inkers & colourists), do some much needed plotting before you even start & start builing the character back up to something that someone wants to actually read.

You know, Bendis's version of Moon Knight was probably the least Batman-like the character has been in a good long while, at least since the relaunch with Dave Finch and the short-lived Vengeance of Moon Knight series that replaced it. It's also probably the least "crazy" he's been since then too, what with him not cutting crescents into people's faces and wearing Bushman's face to bed with Marlene and all. As to incompetent, well I'm not sure what he did that points to incompetence given that he went and punched above his weight-class and came through a winner.

It's probably also worth noting that "proper" is a bit of a subjective term when it comes to a character like Moon Knight who's been all over the map in terms of characterization and concept from his start as a werewolf hunter.

Its not the only explanation, but its a pretty good one given how often the f' up this character. I mean if you can't get Batman to sell, then you are doing something very wrong.

Moon Knight isn't Batman, he's the Shadow. Making him more like Batman, however much you might want that to be the case, isn't the answer to anything because right now there's more than enough Batman comics/TV/Movies/Games out there that anyone interested in Batman wouldn't need to pick up Marvel's second-rate, more-expensive imitation for their fix.

And as to this notion that Marvel wants to punish their Batman-like character because of the success of the real Batman: That comes across as the thinking of someone who knows more about irrationally grinding axes than they do common sense and the real world. Marvel and DC tend to copy one another's successful strategies, not spend time and money punishing fictional characters because of how popular other fictional characters are.

[Treqqor]

I'm sorry but no. We don't see Nefaria doing a single thing until Moonknight comes along & starts messing with him, in fact the only persons who word we have that he was setting himself up as some sort of kingpin is Moonknight... A guy who is clearly not all there. Sure Nefaria probably had a small criminal operation, but new crime kingpin; doubtful.

You just lost credibility with this comment. This is all just a typical fanboy/girl rant at this point, as you didn't read the book. Especially the parts with Hyde losing Nefaria's Ultron head, and Nefaria getting pissed at Moonknight for it. And an Ultron isn't a "small criminal operation" as the next Avengers event will most likely show. The first few issues of the series will show you what you need to know to discuss this. Pick them up, they're actually pretty good.

Get a proper creative team (doesn't need to be a a list team, just a team of compotent writers, artists, inkers & colourists), do some much needed plotting before you even start & start builing the character back up to something that someone wants to actually read.

Fanboy/girl rant again.
What's a proper creative team? A team YOU enjoy and that YOU define the parameters around? Must be nice to be head of Marvel.

We get that this isn't your cup of tea. That's fine. But you don't have to be so insulting about it, especially if others DID enjoy the creative team and where the story was going.

There are all sorts of stories and styles that nobody can define as an absolute to making a "quality" comic book, and thankfully not you. Adding to that, try READING the book so that your "opinions" can have at least a bit of fact behind them so that they can be taken a bit more seriously. Oh, and tell us exactly how much planning went into breaking down this story, since you claim to know there was none. I wasn't there when BMB pitched the story to his editors. Also, since you were there, how was BMB? Was he funny? I imagine him to be pretty funny in person.

Lastly, this isn't Batman. You're reading the wrong comic if you think it is. He's got plenty of his own comics for others to enjoy as it is.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Actually, we see Nefaria up to no good right from the beginning and independent of any confrontation with Moon Knight. We also see Madame Masque and Snapdragon, nevermind the rest of the Avengers confirm what he's up to. Did you not read the book? I ask because what you describe doesn't sound like what was in the book.

No we don't. Its not until Moonknight starts to mess with him that we see him do anything. Until then we just have thugs doing thuggish things. Its not until then that we see Nefaria kick back. Kind of breaks the first rule of fiction writing: "Show, don't tell". You never tell someone "this guy is bad" you show people that he;'s bad, by letting him do something bad. Thats actually one of the best ways to cultivate depth of character. As soon as you say "this guy is the bad guy" it immediately becomes okay to oppose him. But if you have to show that he's bad, it allows your villain to not just be outright evil. Sure outright evil has its place, but even that is better established by showing & not telling.

You know, Bendis's version of Moon Knight was probably the least Batman-like the character has been in a good long while, at least since the relaunch with Dave Finch and the short-lived Vengeance of Moon Knight series that replaced it. It's also probably the least "crazy" he's been since then too, what with him not cutting crescents into people's faces and wearing Bushman's face to bed with Marlene and all. As to incompetent, well I'm not sure what he did that points to incompetence given that he went and punched above his weight-class and came through a winner.

dude, getting people killed & not defeating your enemy is not succeedding by any definition: Survival is admirable, but winning is better. In fact in issue 12 he gets his arse kicked by Nefaria, who was seconds away from killing him. He had to be bailed out by the Avengers. Thats not success thats failure, or if you prefer, incompotents.

Moon Knight isn't Batman, he's the Shadow.

No, he is very much Batman. I'm not sure how much of a background you have with the Shadow, but the two are pretty different: An this is from someone who not only owns the reprints of the original pulp stories, but also owns every episode of the radio play & the 1994 movie. An i just picked up the first issue of the new comic. Moonknight is much more like Batman. But like i've already said, i'm using batman as a widget, a placeholder for a concept. In this case i'm using it as a placeholder for the hero-by-night concept, that has a long pedigree in narrative fiction: from Zorro & to a lesser degree the Shadow, through characters like the batman.

Making him more like Batman, however much you might want that to be the case, isn't the answer to anything because right now there's more than enough Batman comics/TV/Movies/Games out there that anyone interested in Batman wouldn't need to pick up Marvel's second-rate, more-expensive imitation for their fix.

Except that thats exactly how marvel zombies work.

And as to this notion that Marvel wants to punish their Batman-like character because of the success of the real Batman: That comes across as the thinking of someone who knows more about irrationally grinding axes than they do common sense and the real world. Marvel and DC tend to copy one another's successful strategies, not spend time and money punishing fictional characters because of how popular other fictional characters are.

Sure, becuase Marvel & DC would never invent characters that are veiled analogies & then have them decimated by there real teams: Squdron Sinister, Squadron Supreme, Ultimate Adventure etc etc. An on the DC side Havok and the Extremists.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Especially the parts with Hyde losing Nefaria's Ultron head, and Nefaria getting pissed at Moonknight for it.

I didn't mention hyde at all mate. Fact is we have no reason to believe he was working for Nefaria. Someone was, but i could just as likely be the two human thugs, as Hyde. Its assumed it was hyde, but there is nothing to confirm or deny that.

And an Ultron isn't a "small criminal operation" as the next Avengers event will most likely show. The first few issues of the series will show you what you need to know to discuss this.

Except it wasn't Ultron, it was an empty Ultron husk. It was broadcast into, to remotely operate: It never had the ultron AI in it. It says so in the 12 issue. Which means Marc got Echo killed & had to call in the Avengers to recover a very expensive hunk of metal. A small hunk of metal, as i recall the body was recovered by someone else. I'd have to reread it, but i don't think that that was ever resolved. So he got someone killed for an Ultron head, which means the ultron body is still out there.

I'm willing to call that what it is: Incompotents.

What's a proper creative team? A team YOU enjoy and that YOU define the parameters around? Must be nice to be head of Marvel.

um... Just one with some proven skill, who aren't just phoning it in. Don't care who as long as they fit the kind of story they are looking to tell. A writer whose preference suits the sub genre, an artist who likewise suits the narrative style.

We get that this isn't your cup of tea. That's fine. But you don't have to be so insulting about it, especially if others DID enjoy the creative team and where the story was going.

Um, its not that this isn't my cup of tea, its that as an intellectual property Moonknight has always been misused: This new version was just a demonstrably poor showing for the charact,er above and beyond previous poor showings. If you enjoyed the creative team then good for you, but it was demonstrably a poor story, executed poorly.

There are all sorts of stories and styles that nobody can define as an absolute to making a "quality" comic book, and thankfully not you. Adding to that, try READING the book so that your "opinions" can have at least a bit of fact behind them so that they can be taken a bit more seriously. Oh, and tell us exactly how much planning went into breaking down this story, since you claim to know there was none. I wasn't there when BMB pitched the story to his editors. Also, since you were there, how was BMB? Was he funny? I imagine him to be pretty funny in person.

not only do i own the entire series, i own nearly a complete run of Moonknight, from the pre-issue 01 up.

[The Batman]

No we don't. Its not until Moonknight starts to mess with him that we see him do anything. Until then we just have thugs doing thuggish things. Its not until then that we see Nefaria kick back. Kind of breaks the first rule of fiction writing: "Show, don't tell". You never tell someone "this guy is bad" you show people that he;'s bad, by letting him do something bad. Thats actually one of the best ways to cultivate depth of character. As soon as you say "this guy is the bad guy" it immediately becomes okay to oppose him. But if you have to show that he's bad, it allows your villain to not just be outright evil. Sure outright evil has its place, but even that is better established by showing & not telling.

The reactions of both Snapdragon and then later Madame Masque that we're shown shows us that Nefaria means business. Showing Nefaria's attack on the boat during the Ultron exchange at the beginning of the series also shows us that he is up to some nasty business. And this is all while slowly building to a reveal of who the L.A. kingpin is. So yeah, if you read the book, you were shown plenty.

dude, getting people killed & not defeating your enemy is not succeedding by any definition: Survival is admirable, but winning is better. In fact in issue 12 he gets his arse kicked by Nefaria, who was seconds away from killing him. He had to be bailed out by the Avengers. Thats not success thats failure, or if you prefer, incompotents.

No, you're right, except for the parts about Marc being incompetent, about him getting somebody killed, and about him not stopping Count Nefaria, you're totally right. Along those lines, and by your standards, many of the old Moench/Seinkiewicz Moon Knight tories portray Marc as an incompetent failure. For that matter, stories like The Dark Knight Returns, "Year One," "A Death in the Family," and The Dark Knight should have ruined Batman by showing him to be an incompetent failure who gets people killed.

No, he is very much Batman. I'm not sure how much of a background you have with the Shadow, but the two are pretty different: An this is from someone who not only owns the reprints of the original pulp stories, but also owns every episode of the radio play & the 1994 movie. An i just picked up the first issue of the new comic. Moonknight is much more like Batman. But like i've already said, i'm using batman as a widget, a placeholder for a concept. In this case i'm using it as a placeholder for the hero-by-night concept, that has a long pedigree in narrative fiction: from Zorro & to a lesser degree the Shadow, through characters like the batman.

See, I've got all that Shadow stuff too. I've also been reading about Moon Knight for a good long while too. So, when you know a lot about both, you see pretty quickly that Moon Knight better reflects the Shadow than he ever does Batman. The mysticism, for example, that is lacking in Batman's origins is there clearly in both the Shadow and Moon Knight. The mercenary/adventurous past is also shared by Moon Knight and the Shadow and very much less so by Batman. The extended cast of the Shadow's agents is also something that Moon Knight shares with he who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and Batman really doesn't. Some of them get absorbed into Marc's various personalities, others don't: Jack Lockley owes more to Moe Shrevitz than he does "Matches" Malone; the Steven Grant put upon Marc uses more to Lamont Cranston than it does Bruce Wayne. Marlene Alraune, Marc's lover, confidant, and ally, owes more to Margo Lane -- the similar names being a pretty obvious nod as to where Moench was borrowing from when rebuilding a mythos around Marc Spector -- than she does to someone like Catwoman, Vicki Vale, or Talia. It's easy to get hung up on the superficials, the moon-copters and what not, and to ignore the more substantive stuff that underlies it.

Except that thats exactly how marvel zombies work.

Marvel Zombies? They're irrelevant and likely to cross company lines for Batman anyways. He's that popular and that appealing.

Sure, becuase Marvel & DC would never invent characters that are veiled analogies & then have them decimated by there real teams: Squdron Sinister, Squadron Supreme, Ultimate Adventure etc etc. An on the DC side Havok and the Extremists.

Wink all you like, but you're still wrong. Creating an analogue character to help sell a story, what you're talking about now, and sabotaging one of your own already existing in a fit of pique because another superficially similar character is doing really well, what you were talking about before, are two entirely different things.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

The reactions of both Snapdragon and then later Madame Masque that we're shown shows us that Nefaria means business. Showing Nefaria's attack on the boat during the Ultron exchange at the beginning of the series also shows us that he is up to some nasty business. And this is all while slowly building to a reveal of who the L.A. kingpin is. So yeah, if you read the book, you were shown plenty.

Except that Hyde was not sent by Nefaria, the thugs were. Hyde seems to have been selling the ultron shell to Nefaria, who is at that point unnamed. So great Nefaria has thugs, thats nice, most criminals have thugs. Having thugs doesn't really make one the new kingpin of crime. In fact Nefarias operation seems pretty small potatoas.

No, you're right, except for the parts about Marc being incompetent, about him getting somebody killed, and about him not stopping Count Nefaria, you're totally right. Along those lines, and by your standards, many of the old Moench/Seinkiewicz Moon Knight tories portray Marc as an incompetent failure. For that matter, stories like The Dark Knight Returns, "Year One," "A Death in the Family," and The Dark Knight should have ruined Batman by showing him to be an incompetent failure who gets people killed.

Is there an echo in here? I've already said that: What part of "constantly mishandled" & "incompotent" was not clear to people?

See, I've got all that Shadow stuff too. I've also been reading about Moon Knight for a good long while too. So, when you know a lot about both, you see pretty quickly that Moon Knight better reflects the Shadow than he ever does Batman. The mysticism, for example, that is lacking in Batman's origins is there clearly in both the Shadow and Moon Knight.

Except that the original Shadow never had any mysticism, nor did the radio play version: In fact the radio play verison dismissed the idea of magic entirely (his ability to turn invisible was always explained to be a science that anyone could learn). But to be fair Moon Knight has never had any mysticism either: Yes i know everyone talks it up, but you never actually see it. Oh sure everyone else tries to make out there's magic involved, but frankly i personally think the guys just nuts. Look at his origin: The guy wasn't dead, he was just unconsious & then he stops being unconsious & is all "oh wow i was dead, but then got raised from the dead."

In fact people constantly try to talk up this mysticism/magic/religious angle, but it never really appears in the comics. Oh sure Marc will mention it occassionally, but he doesn't use it himself & it only every appears in a way that is completely incidental, like a christian praying for rain in the rainy season & then concluding its god, when it does eventually rain, 2 weeks later. Take ressurection war for instance: Marc says that he died & then came back, yet we only have his word for it: What if the guy is just loco?

The mercenary/adventurous past is also shared by Moon Knight and the Shadow and very much less so by Batman.

you are kidding right? Bruce travelled the world, learning from the worlds greatest masters. There have been entire story arcs about it... Entire story arcs that are well written even. Just like the religious angle its all spoken dialogue.

The extended cast of the Shadow's agents is also something that Moon Knight shares with he who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and Batman really doesn't.

I promise that if we compared lists of named informants & partners Batman would win hands down. An again there have been actual story arcs about Batmans allies. A better pulp comparrison would be Doc Savages allies.

Some of them get absorbed into Marc's various personalities, others don't: Jack Lockley owes more to Moe Shrevitz than he does "Matches" Malone; the Steven Grant put upon Marc uses more to Lamont Cranston than it does Bruce Wayne. Marlene Alraune, Marc's lover, confidant, and ally, owes more to Margo Lane -- the similar names being a pretty obvious nod as to where Moench was borrowing from when rebuilding a mythos around Marc Spector -- than she does to someone like Catwoman, Vicki Vale, or Talia. It's easy to get hung up on the superficials, the moon-copters and what not, and to ignore the more substantive stuff that underlies it.

How on earth is the name Marlene Alraune in any way similiar to Margo Lane? Oh, just as an FYI, Margo Lane did not exist in the original pulps.

Marvel Zombies? They're irrelevant and likely to cross company lines for Batman anyways. He's that popular and that appealing.

Its not irrelevent at all. There are a whole heap of MArvel Zombies who wont read anything thats not marvel. Why not give them a better version of Moon Knight? One that stops messing around & stops pretending that its not essentially a knock of the batman concept. Revel in its knocked-off-ness: Take it & run in a similiar direction, but with its own unique twists. I mean its not like we are creating anything new, or adding any new aspects, they are already exist: Except for maybe a new city.

Its just a case of focus: Focus on Moon-knight not sucking, stop marc from being insane, & bringing in a new cast of supporting characters & you could make a great series... Becuase marvel has nothing else like it: It'd be unique within the company & marvel could do with some positive uniquness.

Wink all you like, but you're still wrong. Creating an analogue character to help sell a story, what you're talking about now, and sabotaging one of your own already existing in a fit of pique because another superficially similar character is doing really well, what you were talking about before, are two entirely different things.

Dude, all of the above teams were direct analogues, even by the companies own words & mostly existed to be pummeled in a kind of passive aggressive way: Its pretty darn cathartic.

EDIT: I'm not saying there aren't things worth keeping, but the prodiminate trend with Moon Knight has always been the changability of the series & thats not really a good basis for building an oingoing around. Some change is okay, but when you dispose entirely of your mythology, its not exactly inspiring for readers.