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  1. #16
    Immortal. So far so good! Treqqor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    Sure but there is a difference between Hero & Hero of the Night. Hero of the Night, needs space, distance between himself and other heroes. He should be able to exist as a phantom, walking through the city, like a man walking through the mists. Having hundreds of other amazing characters in the same area messess that up. When something goes bump in the night on the roof, the criminal element needs to be thinking "oh god he's found us," not "don't worry its, probably spiderman, he passess this way this time every wednesday."
    You keep bringing up New York. But he's been on the other side of the country away from all the heroes in New York for this latest series.

    Besides, it just sounds like you want Batman, maybe not EXACTLY, but more or less. He has his own books that are very easy to find.

  2. #17
    Senior Member SomeBodyAtCBR's Avatar
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    I'd shelf him for a while. Plain and simple. Leave him be until another writer has a good pitch. I think having him and Venom on the Secret Avengers would be "90s KEWLNESS" overload.

  3. #18
    T.S.O.T.I. Hulk_Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    Oh how sick... People don't want to read about a character thats a winner, they obviosly want to read about a character who's a loser... I mean thats opbviously reflected by the sales numbers on Moon Knight, when compared to Batman... Wait a second, no its not.
    In order for your character ideas to work it would require that Moon Knight routinely wins alot. Like I said before, it's one of the reasons that Batman sells and people like to see themselves in him.



    The same narrative legacy that has served all the Dark Avengers before him: That sense of theatrics possessed by Zorro, The Shadow, The Spider, Doc Savege, Black Beetle & Batman. The insular city full of interesting characters & locations. The dens of iniquity ready for our rogue of hearts, the corrupt officials & the femme fatales. The Allure of the mysterious stranger, the equipment of the trade, secret door knocks & hidden trap doors. To some degree all the masked heroes of the night have had those... All except Moon Knight.
    I am seriously beginning to think that you've hit your head detrimentally during the course of all of this posting. Hopefully your recollection of MK memories returns soon. Seriously, you're suggesting that he has none of those?

    So in Moon Knights case, i would go, shining city by day, corrupt by night. Mysterious Mark Spector sets up business interests in area, as he recovers from his surgery. See's the underbelly first hand & decides to lend his expertise. Purchases a property, with a hidden HQ. Stream-lines his gadgets to more permanent features: The car, the bike, the gyrocopter. Ditch the ninja weapons but keep the billy club/staff. Give him the starts of a network of informants working for Moon Knight: Informants who are charsiamtic/interesting. A love interest, who isn't at all shadowy (because its nice to thumb your nose at tradition sometimes). More investigation & thinking through battles, less throwing yourself at the enemy like an idiot. An eventually pick up a girl friday, as a plucky side-kick.
    Why does your character truly decide to attack the criminal underbelly? He was a cold-blooded mercenary once, so why the change of heart? Crawley wasn't chaismatic and interesting enough for you? Nor the walking stereotype Frenchie?

    How does he contact his informants?

    I'm definitely not liking the sidekick girlfriend idea. This isn't the DC universe. But, I guess every Batman needs a Robin, huh?

    The only real distinction is that when someone does something stupid with Batman, they have the good sense to get rid of it, if it didn't work.
    The Batgod theme is stupid and they keep that around because it garners fans and makes tons of money. They'll never get rid of that. Your idea of Bat Knight could suffer the same considering the similar scenarios of trying to groom this character for prominence.

    Even between volumes, there was no consistency.
    Correct.

    The same thing that became of Batmans origin when he finally decided that he needed to move on from his parents death. He didn't suddenly stop being Batman, but he did realise that he couldn't continue to live in the past... What has happened has already happened; no amount of agonising is going to change that. MK is the same, he needs to move on & just like his fan base, he needs to stop living in the past.
    Marc Spector doesn't agonize over his mercenary past per se. He just tries to help people now instead of just killing them for money. And, just how are his fans living in the past? Your ideas for the character don't seem that advanced either. I'll say it again, if I want to read about a Batman, Zorro, Doc Savage, etc, I'll just begin reading books featuring those characters or become a more avid DC reader.

    I'm not trying to insult your ideas, but I don't really see a great seperation from the pack other than Marvel gaining their own version of Batman and Robin. I thought you said that MK needs to come out from behind the shadow of Batman. Seems to me he'd end up further behind it.

    Sure but there is a difference between Hero & Hero of the Night. Hero of the Night, needs space, distance between himself and other heroes. He should be able to exist as a phantom, walking through the city, like a man walking through the mists. Having hundreds of other amazing characters in the same area messess that up. When something goes bump in the night on the roof, the criminal element needs to be thinking "oh god he's found us," not "don't worry its, probably spiderman, he passess this way this time every wednesday."
    I'm not seeing how putting MK in a fictional city (another well-known DC likeness) and thrashing the things that go bump in the night enhances the character experience for Marvel audiences. I never hear anyone clamor for any of this.

    Dude trust me, there are like 5 people who care about his supporting cast. An 3 of those people only care because they want the characters to die in a most painful way. His supporting cast where the least likeable grab bag of supporting cast in any comic book ever. They were a single line pitch that never developed beyond that one line pitch.
    Okay, got it. Add an all-new supporting cast in a fictional enviroment.

    It wouldn't be ignoring the past, just not constantly going back to it... which is good because there wasn't all that much to it it start with. Everything that has happened, has happened... Its just not as important as what would be happnening now.
    I really like how you're so sure that your version of Marvel's Batman & Robin will hold Marvel audiences attention long enough for them to avoid noticing the original versions over in the DC universe. Hmm, I wonder why Marvel didn't ever think of this first.

    Sure they would. Just like how people said that no one wanted to read a Captain America monthly & then Bruabaker did something different with it. It didn't suddenly invalidate his past history, it just made the contemporary interesting again. Thats all this would be... MK written in a way that would be interesting to a larger audience.
    But, you are invalidating MK's past history. Why should he even name himself Moon Knight and dress up in white now?

    In your scenario, what previously exsits and what does not? How does Marc even get the shrapnel? Does he still have a falling out with Bushman over Marlene's fathers death? And, does Marc still get sent off to die only to be resurrected?

    What's a more interesting origin story from your perspective that will get people to buy into your not-so-original vision? It is clear by your vision that his origins would have to be altered.
    Last edited by Hulk_Is; 04-15-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    Marvel : Moon Knight, Savage Hulk (6/25), Original Sin (5/7)

    DC : Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others

  4. #19
    Senior Member Mundungus's Avatar
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    Give him to Remender in Secret Avengers.

  5. #20
    T.S.O.T.I. Hulk_Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mundungus View Post
    Give him to Remender in Secret Avengers.
    Moon Knight is in need of a boost, not a downgrade.
    Marvel : Moon Knight, Savage Hulk (6/25), Original Sin (5/7)

    DC : Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others

  6. #21
    Senior Member Mundungus's Avatar
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    I just think Marvel should steer clear of a solo book for awhile. Put him on a team book, give him some spotlight, then build him back up.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    What MArvel needs to do to make Moon Knight a commercial success is something Marvel doesn't have the balls to do: Admit that MK is essentially Batman. I love MK because he used to be Marvels answer to Batman... I hated the actual Moonknight, because he was inconsistent, had no stated goal, had no expandable playground, had a dull supporting cast, a worse rogues gallery & generally had been written intot the ground by people making him insane.

    heck, give me a quality creative team & i promise i can make Moonknight one of Marvels top 10 by years end... Its not hard.

    All it would take would be a few small things to be successful: For starters a new city, one that is completely ficitonal, so MK stops banging heads with literally every other damn character in the Marvel universe... Plus how many masked avenger of the night types can you name that
    A. Dont have there own city
    B. Have a city thats not completely fictional

    Next you want to stop him from being crazy... No one wants to read about a guy who is fruit loops insane. An its easy enough to make him not insane... It turns out that the explosion form MK's origin lodged the smallest pieace of ceramic into his brain & its slowly been moving into the brain making him more and more crazy. Heck that could be how he ends up in a new city... Emergency surgery at the number one brain surgery hospital in the US. Because this Konshu stuff has got to go. At one point it was tolerable, but essentially everything thats been done with it, has painted it essentially as a shared dellusion.

    Next, you need to actually streamline the character. Who is he, what are his abilities, what his M.O. Not just MK & his civilian identity, of which he requires "ONE," not 20. Same goes for his supporting cast... Ditch them. Frenchie deserves no more then the worst possible death in comics. He was a grab bag of french cliches & then became a grab bag of gay cliches. Same with Marleen; i mean talk about a Mary Sue. I swear she existed just to have bad things happen to her. Upside is that you get a brand new supporting cast.

    After that you need a compelling form of conflict. Something that MK can oppose in some way. Something that is not only long term, but can result in short term oppositon too. Moon Knight kind of needs a less rich version of Lex Luthor. A Lex Luthor who is all about owning the new city for instance. I could also suggest using something like a new MGH style drug or Big Bang style effect to create new viilains, ala Bang Babies (possibly a weaponised formula developed by said Luthor analogue).

    An this leads into the development of an entire rogues gallery of villains over time, which was always one of the biggest draws for the early post crisis Batman books. An never ever again mention any of MK's old villains... Because they were all excessively lame.

    As for style of book, i would go kind of year 2 batman style: He has the skills, he has the tech, but now he has to apply it. An in that way he comes into indirect conflict with his Lex... By years end the two are aware of each other directly, the plot has opened out to the point where it becomes apparent that the Lex has a bigger plan for "his" city. Already we see the parts start to slot together, including the testing of a new MGH like drug on part of the populace. I'd like to think that that would even possibly result in a female sidekick character for MK... An for some reason in my head said sidekick is like Misfit in that she can teleport & is completely untrained. I also like to think that she tried to go it alone & while investigating her MK is ambushed & pinned down, only to be saved by Misfit. It'd be a nice spin on the old Hero saves potential sidekick moment. An you know what, if i could get a fast enough team to work on the book (or if we could get far enough ahead), i would porobably make it a fortnightly book.

    Because thats the two things MK has always been missing: Consistency & Mythos.

    Of course this is all moot since Marvel would never do any of the above... As it would include effort & taking a chance, two things that Marvel have shied away from in the last 5 years. Thats why we now have 1 whole book thats not in Marvels top 4 franchises, or a derivative property of thsoe 4: The Defenders.
    Okay 1st, yes Rogues Gallery isn't the best but he did have some good ones. The Midnight Man and especially Morpheus were great. Black Spectre was killed off quite quickly but was interesting and could easily be bought back. Okay yes, Bushman is horrible. Scarlet was interesting. His Brother Randall Spectre is another good villain. Of course any hero could use some new good villains.

    I don't think the city/locale matters so much.

    You say the Khonshu stuff has to go...but do you understand that that's his origin? Mercenary dies in the desert and comes back to life, sees the Khonshu statue and is inspired to become Moon Knight.

    Stop him from being crazy...okay. Well his creator Doug Moench made him crazy. He was crazy when his best stories were done. Then starting with the 2nd series Fist of Khonshu, he wasn't crazy anymore. That lasted 6 issues. The 3rd series went on a good while but wasn't particularly good and he wasn't crazy in that either. Then Bendis, one of the hottest writers in the business made him crazy again and the series tanked. So I don't see a pattern here. His series have failed whether he's been crazy or not. He's just not that popular of a character. The Bendis series might have succeeded if Bendis had done something interesting with his crazy-ness instead of something quite stupid and used it as an excuse to shoehorn in Spidey and Wolvy AGAIN.. Anyway crazy or not, good creators or bad, Moon Knight has always had trouble holding a series. And yes some of them did marginalize Frenchie and Marlene like Fist of Khonshu. Still didn't work.

    Frenchie and Marlene, it doesn't matter to me whether they stay or go. But I am puzzled that Frenchie is gay considering that he was a womanizer in the 1st series...okay Marvel. More gay characters are great, but can we have new gay characters?

    Some of your other ideas are fine. But a lot of what you want to do (make MK Batman) doesn't make sense to me. If you take away everything special about Moon Knight to make him Batman...well why not just go read Batman?
    Life looks better in black and white.

  8. #23
    A member of the X-men Zak213's Avatar
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    I think maybe putting MK in a team book for a while before trying another solo. Maybe putting him in the defenders or legion of monsters or having a alternate reality version of the character appearing in Age of Apocalypse could be cool.

    well, i think you also have to figure what makes the character different than batman and what makes him better than bats in a certain way.

  9. #24
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    In order for your character ideas to work it would require that Moon Knight routinely wins alot. Like I said before, it's one of the reasons that Batman sells and people like to see themselves in him.
    No people don't. No one reads comics to see a guy lose, in the same way people don't watch porn to marvel at the technical cinematography skill & the writers prowess at writing dialogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    I am seriously beginning to think that you've hit your head detrimentally during the course of all of this posting. Hopefully your recollection of MK memories returns soon. Seriously, you're suggesting that he has none of those?
    Nope, he has a pretense at those: Unfortunately they never last long & they are never properly established.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    Why does your character truly decide to attack the criminal underbelly? He was a cold-blooded mercenary once, so why the change of heart?
    You know what they say: With age comes wisdom. Really its not all the different then what he was doing in the last two volumes of his own book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    Crawley wasn't chaismatic and interesting enough for you? Nor the walking stereotype Frenchie?
    No. I'm sorry but the fact that not one of the characters has actually grown or developed since 1980 is not a promising sign. I mean its not like they are being stagnated due to icon protection like say Jimmy Olsen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    I'm definitely not liking the sidekick girlfriend idea. This isn't the DC universe. But, I guess every Batman needs a Robin, huh?
    I said girl firday, not girl-friend. As for why does he need a sidekick; he doesn't NEED one, but it would certainly help expand out his mythos. It also brings in a new angle for the character... Like it did back when he tried to find himself a replacement back in the day (when he thought he was dying). Plus the fresh blood always brings in a new group of readers, as you usually build a jump on point at that point in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    The Batgod theme is stupid and they keep that around because it garners fans and makes tons of money. They'll never get rid of that. Your idea of Bat Knight could suffer the same considering the similar scenarios of trying to groom this character for prominence.
    Not Batgod... Not even Batman... Just the understanding that there is a better way to build this character up, that would at the same time garner a brand new following. If one is going to tap into one of the most powerful narrative legacies in the history of fiction, then go whole hog with it: Pull from some of the greatest sources in that legacy, from the panache of early zorro, the flamboyance of the Count of Monte Christo, & the dark menace of The Shadow. Consider Batman nothing but a widget, a place holder name for the narrative concept of the masked man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    And, just how are his fans living in the past? Your ideas for the character don't seem that advanced either. I'll say it again, if I want to read about a Batman, Zorro, Doc Savage, etc, I'll just begin reading books featuring those characters or become a more avid DC reader.
    I already have read all of the books about those characters. I also own a near complete collection of the original radio plays for The Shadow circa 1937 (with the original Blue Coal adverts). But saying that building on those ideas because they're old is not advanced, is wrong. After all thats exactly what Bob Kaine did when he created Batman: He actually stole a lot of stuff from Zorro & The Shadow (which was very popular at the time). Heck its what was done to create Superman, who was essentially a more pulp fiction version of John Carter of Earth, but in reverse. Yet neither character appears anything like the character the writers grifted concepts from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    I'm not trying to insult your ideas, but I don't really see a great seperation from the pack other than Marvel gaining their own version of Batman and Robin. I thought you said that MK needs to come out from behind the shadow of Batman. Seems to me he'd end up further behind it.
    Because it wouldn't be another version of Batman & Robin anymore then Batman is another version of Zorro or The Shadow. Its all about what direction to take the character as a character... Essentially its how Icon is different from Superman, even though they both have roughly the smae powers & origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    I'm not seeing how putting MK in a fictional city (another well-known DC likeness) and thrashing the things that go bump in the night enhances the character experience for Marvel audiences. I never hear anyone clamor for any of this.
    What Marvel audience... This book doesn't have an audience anymore: Its been cancelled twice now. As for clamouring for it, no one was clamouring for a new Captain America book either, until it was made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    I really like how you're so sure that your version of Marvel's Batman & Robin will hold Marvel audiences attention long enough for them to avoid noticing the original versions over in the DC universe. Hmm, I wonder why Marvel didn't ever think of this first.
    Because its not Batman, anymore then the character is Batman now. Not anymore then Icon was Superman... Or Apollo was Superman... Or Plutonian is Superman... Or Hyperion is Superman: You give people a good enough story & they won't care that the character uses similiar tropes to another character, as long as you have enough of your own stuff in there. Its the differences they will notice, not the similiarities. Especially with a universal theme-character like "Batman" (remember we are using Batman as a widget here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    But, you are invalidating MK's past history. Why should he even name himself Moon Knight and dress up in white now?
    Not at all. Every single thing that has happened in his past is still there, just as it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    In your scenario, what previously exsits and what does not? How does Marc even get the shrapnel? Does he still have a falling out with Bushman over Marlene's fathers death? And, does Marc still get sent off to die only to be resurrected?
    All still happened. An there really is no reason to believe that his initial ressurection was really anything more then his heart starting on his own again. Its not even all that rare a thing to happen... It actually happens all the time. Especially if the heart stopping is caused by a blow to the head. As for the Resurrection War stuff, by that point he's been messing around with the supernatural so long, we have no idea who or what brought him back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is View Post
    What's a more interesting origin story from your perspective that will get people to buy into your not-so-original vision? It is clear by your vision that his origins would have to be altered.
    Happens exactly like it did in the original story. The only difference is that it turns out to be the wrong conclusion to jump to that it was the magic of Konshu. An from there the later stuff where he starts to "see Konshu" is just his initial head injury getting worse. Either its built up swelling of the brain applying pressure or a piece of ceramic from the original attack. It changes none of the original stuff, which pretty much dismisses Konshu, except as a narrative toold to try and make MK more interesting. Heck Konshu might still have been the reason why & all that nonsense in the last 3 volumes wasn't Konshu at all, but the result of a more recent brain injury. But either way, he doesn't really need Konshu.

  10. #25
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    I think I would like to see MK be more involved in supernatural threats, maybe even magical threats to a small degree. Not Dr. Strange levels of magic, but more simpler instances. MK should do team-ups with Blade and have a supernatural book together. How awesome would that be? I HATE Bendis' rendition of the Lunar Legionnaire, and I disregard that crap as nothing more than crap. Throw that out the window. You can pull a Dallas and have Marlene wake up one morning with MK in the shower and she comes in and tells him of the strangest dream she just had. It's cheap, but a quick way to disregard pure crap. MK NEEDS to move to Chicago. Other than the GL Avengers (which is a joke), who else operates in Chicago?! That's his and Randle's hometown. It's a much better town than L.A. and the city government is so corrupt IRL.

    So Steven Grant can move his corporation to Chicago, as a socialite he can find out what crime is going down in high society, but use Crawley as his low society informant. Maybe he can form a network of low society informants using homeless shelters or something. I think Frenchie needs to die. I have nothing against gay characters, but I hate when writers make characters with an established background magically gay. Plus, Frenchie is a grab bag full of French stereotypes and he has outlived his relevance and usefulness. Marlene's loss of her baby at the hands of Randle aka Shadow Knight was never settled. That needs to be settled.

    I like the idea of MK having a poorer, but still wealthy Lex Luthor type character. Maybe a rival company CEO or something would work. MK needs to have more tech devices, a few throwing crescents, but only use the billy club/bo staff and yes, think about a fight before just simply charging in and getting his butt handed to him.

    I like the idea of him being less crazy and more like Batman, but I DON'T want him to BE Batman. A sidekick would be cool too. I like the Khonshu angle, but it needs to be resolved officially. Is it just in his head and is he crazy or is Khonshu a real manifestation of the egyptian god? We have the Asgardians and the Olympians, maybe the egyptian pantheon should be revealed to be alive and using avatars on earth or something. And the slight power boost based on the phases of the moon should either simply be permanent or taken out altogether. I think if MK simply has low level powers ala Captain America where he is simply faster, more agile, slightly stronger than the average human, etc, that I would be ok with that.

  11. #26
    DD & BP: secret BFF's FriendRoss's Avatar
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    i enjoyed the recent moon knight by bendis.


    but this was a cool moon knight appearence that dealt with Khonshu in the most interesting way EVER!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    black panther #21 2nd series
    cover by sal velluto & steve geiger christopher priest/sal velluto/bob almond Guest-starring Moon Knight! Killmonger has defeated T'Challa in personal combat, which means he's now the tribal leader of the Panther Clan?and entitled to wear the mantle of the Black Panther! Now, as our hero lies near death, only the power of Khonshu, embodied by his avatar the Moon Knight, can guide him through the realms of the dead and back to life! Cover price $2.50.


    black panther #22

    cover by sal velluto & steve geiger, christopher priest/sal velluto/bob almond. Trapped among the spirit worlds by a mystery Marvel villain, T'Challa's only hope to heal his battered body and reunite his soul with flesh lies with the Egyptian diety Khonshu, and his Earthly avatar Moon Knight! Plus: Killmonger, the new Black Panther, goes a'prowling! Cover price $2.50.

  12. #27
    T.S.O.T.I. Hulk_Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    No people don't. No one reads comics to see a guy lose, in the same way people don't watch porn to marvel at the technical cinematography skill & the writers prowess at writing dialogue.
    I know that in order for a MK series to become a hit that he'll have to become more of a winner than a loser. And, your template sets the character up nicely to fall in the footsteps of those characters' lecagies you've mentioned beforehand.

    Nope, he has a pretense at those: Unfortunately they never last long & they are never properly established.
    Well, we'd have to hope your series' take would remain viable long enough to avoid cancellation numbers so these things could be properly established.

    You know what they say: With age comes wisdom. Really its not all the different then what he was doing in the last two volumes of his own book.
    You know what they say: Sliding Time Scale. The character is not that much older than he is from his origins. But, I'll quit splitting-hairs and just assume that that fateful piece of shrapnel gave him the change of heart.

    I personally don't like that addition because it invalidates his origins by causing MK to lose some of his fringey aptitudes; part of what makes the character special. I don't believe the MPD-ish aspects of the character is what turns readers off more than there hasn't been an excellent and consistent run.

    No. I'm sorry but the fact that not one of the characters has actually grown or developed since 1980 is not a promising sign. I mean its not like they are being stagnated due to icon protection like say Jimmy Olsen.
    MK has always mostly been an on an off-and-on series, so there hasn't always been room or improvement in that area. But, the supporting characters have had some growth to them. Frenchie has has been revealed to be openly gay and in love with Marc. Gena gained weight out of depression from losing a son. Midnight sought out MK in a great resolve and was killed in the process.

    There just needs to be a creative team that goes in with a hard feel for the MK mythos. Bendis from what I can tell didn't do @#$% for the charcter. Absolutley nothing.

    I said girl firday, not girl-friend. As for why does he need a sidekick; he doesn't NEED one, but it would certainly help expand out his mythos. It also brings in a new angle for the character... Like it did back when he tried to find himself a replacement back in the day (when he thought he was dying). Plus the fresh blood always brings in a new group of readers, as you usually build a jump on point at that point in the story.
    Maybe it'll work and for new readers who haven't yet made out the similarities to Batman and the Boy Wonder.

    Not Batgod... Not even Batman... Just the understanding that there is a better way to build this character up, that would at the same time garner a brand new following. If one is going to tap into one of the most powerful narrative legacies in the history of fiction, then go whole hog with it: Pull from some of the greatest sources in that legacy, from the panache of early zorro, the flamboyance of the Count of Monte Christo, & the dark menace of The Shadow. Consider Batman nothing but a widget, a place holder name for the narrative concept of the masked man.
    I'm just not feeling the grand sweeping hero that your version becomes, especially when it's shaves off his eeire and mysterious origins. All of that original and legitamate origin story (which isn't broken btw, it just needs more consitent portrayals IMO) gets thrown out due to a piece of shrapnel and narratives that may or may not sell using this character.

    I already have read all of the books about those characters. I also own a near complete collection of the original radio plays for The Shadow circa 1937 (with the original Blue Coal adverts). But saying that building on those ideas because they're old is not advanced, is wrong. After all thats exactly what Bob Kaine did when he created Batman: He actually stole a lot of stuff from Zorro & The Shadow (which was very popular at the time). Heck its what was done to create Superman, who was essentially a more pulp fiction version of John Carter of Earth, but in reverse. Yet neither character appears anything like the character the writers grifted concepts from.
    I have a sinking feeling that Moon Knight wouldn't be as lucky as those characters - especially considering that he's a part of the Marvel Universe and not the DC universe - new or old. These are important distinctions to make.

    Because it wouldn't be another version of Batman & Robin anymore then Batman is another version of Zorro or The Shadow. Its all about what direction to take the character as a character... Essentially its how Icon is different from Superman, even though they both have roughly the smae powers & origin.
    I just can't imagine your version of Moon Knight and girl-friday keeping anyone interested long enough when he no longers shares the diversity of supernatural, horror, crime, and ambiguous elements. Your vision just seems to make him a somewhat one-note character relying soley on a the wares of a stellar writer.

    Would a writer be able to sell your vision to audiences in this modern-day age of storytelling in ans acceptable time frame? It works for Batman and his various spin-offs surely, but can it work for yet another take on MK?

    What Marvel audience... This book doesn't have an audience anymore: Its been cancelled twice now. As for clamouring for it, no one was clamouring for a new Captain America book either, until it was made.
    There is an audience for this book. It's just a matter of retaining the readers more familiar with the character and creating new ones for an acceptably sustained length of time. Bendis's series, for example, clearly did not hold an acceptable amount of readers beacuse what audience it did have stayed based off of the creative power on that book. It is clear that many didn't find the the book entertaing or acceptable for one reason or another.

    I think that if Marvel could get readers with such disparate views such as you and I to regularly read the series, then things would begin looking up for the character.

    Because its not Batman, anymore then the character is Batman now. Not anymore then Icon was Superman... Or Apollo was Superman... Or Plutonian is Superman... Or Hyperion is Superman: You give people a good enough story & they won't care that the character uses similiar tropes to another character, as long as you have enough of your own stuff in there. Its the differences they will notice, not the similiarities. Especially with a universal theme-character like "Batman" (remember we are using Batman as a widget here).
    Some people care now that Moon Knight seems like a poor man's Batman and therefore won't touch him because of that. I think that you're being naiive here. Your version of MK just seems to be more like a Batman than he ever has been. Apart from his parents being murdered and the Bat-theme, what makes your Moon Knight any different? I mean, he has the cars/gadgets and the sidekick and a fictional city he'd govern over buy stalking the night, why should Marvel readers want to read about this guy when DC already has the most enduring version of this theme?

    Daredevil, Journey Into Mystery, and plenty of other Marvel books have "good enough" stories too, but it doesn't leave their readers shaking any less in their boots when the monthly sales charts are released.

    Not at all. Every single thing that has happened in his past is still there, just as it happened.
    But, your shrapnel version seems to severely undo how his future unfolds now. Which I guess is the point, but does the new path become a hit among a sizeable portion of exsisting readers?

    All still happened. An there really is no reason to believe that his initial ressurection was really anything more then his heart starting on his own again. Its not even all that rare a thing to happen... It actually happens all the time. Especially if the heart stopping is caused by a blow to the head. As for the Resurrection War stuff, by that point he's been messing around with the supernatural so long, we have no idea who or what brought him back.
    The supernatural element is what many of us like to be referenced here and there. You version doesn't jibe with with his past. Maybe the longtime readers would be forgiving of a lack of supernatural leanings among other omissions you suggest.

    Happens exactly like it did in the original story. The only difference is that it turns out to be the wrong conclusion to jump to that it was the magic of Konshu. An from there the later stuff where he starts to "see Konshu" is just his initial head injury getting worse. Either its built up swelling of the brain applying pressure or a piece of ceramic from the original attack. It changes none of the original stuff, which pretty much dismisses Konshu, except as a narrative toold to try and make MK more interesting. Heck Konshu might still have been the reason why & all that nonsense in the last 3 volumes wasn't Konshu at all, but the result of a more recent brain injury. But either way, he doesn't really need Konshu.
    Khonshu is the reason he thanks his lucky stars that he originally got a chance to right his past wrongs. So, if Konshu didn't even literllay exsist to Marc, Konshu would still likely be something he'd hold reference to, otherwise your version of Moon Knight becomes a sham. That being said, if the stories are good enough, new readers will not care enough and just like the stories. But, there still is the fact of havingt to retain the longtime readers as well.
    Last edited by Hulk_Is; 04-16-2012 at 06:26 PM.
    Marvel : Moon Knight, Savage Hulk (6/25), Original Sin (5/7)

    DC : Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others

  13. #28
    T.S.O.T.I. Hulk_Is's Avatar
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    My two cents on the issue besides what I've already expressed are that the character is not broken, as too many callously express.

    While I think that passing notes of Moon Knight being similar to Batman, but !@#$-crazier and having somewhat of a convoluted history intimidate potential readers, I also think that there hasn't recently been a consistent writer with a comprehensive take on the elements. I think that the multiple personalites, supernatural aspects, and mercenary past can all coexsist, but it must have a writer that has the innate ability to tell entertaining stories drawing from all of the aspects of the mythos (think of how Dan Slott handles alot of different angles and gives all those elements equal gravity in Amazing Spider-Man).

    Also, I suppose it'd be nice if the writers' name inspired confidence and on the property he'd be using. Also, having an artist that is generally enjayable wouldn't hurt.

    The book would also probably need to be released at just the right time. What does that even mean? I don't know, but we'd all become aware of that when it does really good numbers.

    I'm an optimist, but don't want to see the things I like about the character to be removed all on basis of somehow it's broken. Moon Knight is what he is and may never do magical numbers anymore - which isn't anything to be ashamed of. Marvel's producing alot of diversity now and no matter how great a new Moon Knight series may be, it may never survive long enough in the market.

    There is also the route of placing him on teams and letting different readers get a taste of the character. But, his main ongoing would still likely need what I mentioned above.

    Lastly, I do like the suggestion that Marc could possibly move back to Chicago. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea since it wouldn't hurt the character any.
    Marvel : Moon Knight, Savage Hulk (6/25), Original Sin (5/7)

    DC : Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others

  14. #29
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    did Bendis kind of stick the fork in the character? i remember several months back that everyone thought that they were going to remake the West Coast Avengers and that Marc's move to the west coast was proof of this. whoops.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  15. #30
    T.S.O.T.I. Hulk_Is's Avatar
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    I'm dreading thinking about his final issue on the series - #12. How will he leave the character?
    Marvel : Moon Knight, Savage Hulk (6/25), Original Sin (5/7)

    DC : Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others

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