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  1. #1
    Lord of Apokolips The Black One's Avatar
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    Default Zechs in the Epyon vs. Char in the Sazabi

    The Zero system is a pretty solid counter to Char being a Newtype, as both pilots have combat pre-cog. The question, who is the better pilot?
    Last edited by The Black One; 04-14-2012 at 07:33 AM.
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  2. #2
    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    Far as raw skill goes? Who knows, though Char has a MASSIVE edge in raw experience. In suit to suit combat? The one with numerous ranged weapons including funnels which can fire continuously from every angle pretty much ensure a stomp against a melee only suit. Also no, Zechs was not a precog, he had extremely good reaction time, but that was it. Even the Epyon/Zero system didn't make them out and out precog, they only showed them the most likely possibility based on what the conditions around them was, which is why they were able to get their "visions of the future" in the various episodes.
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  3. #3
    Lord of Apokolips The Black One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    Far as raw skill goes? Who knows, though Char has a MASSIVE edge in raw experience. In suit to suit combat? The one with numerous ranged weapons including funnels which can fire continuously from every angle pretty much ensure a stomp against a melee only suit. Also no, Zechs was not a precog, he had extremely good reaction time, but that was it. Even the Epyon/Zero system didn't make them out and out precog, they only showed them the most likely possibility based on what the conditions around them was, which is why they were able to get their "visions of the future" in the various episodes.
    Eh, power vs. experience. It's moot, both have amazing feats of mobile suit combat. The Sazabi doesn't have "numerous" ranged weapons, it has one rifle and six funnels. Also, it isn't like Zechs hasn't effortlessly dodged fire from all directions before. Hell, he did this in the Tallgeese, which didn't have a zero system. Also, while the funnels are great against Pud suits, the "Gundanium" used in Wing was highly resistant to beam weapons. Case and point, a full power direct hit from the Vayeate's beam cannon couldn't completely destroy an already heavily damaged Deathscythe. The relatively low output of Char's funnels are nothing compared to the kind of sustained punishment the Gundanium takes and shrugs off on a regular basis. With the Zero system, and Zechs' amazing natural accuracy, he could take out the funnels with little effort. Also, the Epyon was equipped with head vulcans after Zechs got the suit, so it had more than just melee weapons. As for the Zero System, Yes it did, in fact, give it's pilots combat precog. The system is described as taking all previous combat data, combines it with data taken from the current battle, uses that data to conceive thousands of different possible scenarios and feeds them directly into the pilot's brain. Quatra, Heero and Zechs all describe being able to see the future while using the system. Case and Point, Quatra, who, based on feats is probably the weakest of the five gundam pilots, was able to defeat Heero and Trowa at the same time, who were piloting the Mercurius and Veyeate, suits which were nearly identical to Gundams in design and performance. In fact, after Heero and Zechs got the Wing Zero and Epyon respectively, they became, for all intents and purposes, untouchable in combat for the rest of the show, until their final encounter.

    Ranged weapons are of no real consequence here, as the Epyon doesn't have any that are really worth anything and the Sazabi's aren't powerful enough to hurt the Epyon in any real way before Zechs takes them out. It'll come down to melee combat. Who's the better beam sword fighter? In that regard I lean more towards Zechs, but it's close, I'm thinking 6/10.
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  4. #4
    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    What the Vayeate hit it vaporized, the reason the entire suit wasn't destroyed is that Trowa deliberately shifted his aim.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5YVGDUY#t=134s

    The Sazabi's funnels had an output of 10.6 MW each, greater than the Megaparticle Gun it carried(8.8 MW). To further put this in perspective a beam rifle from 0083(carried by the Zephyranthes) was only rated at 1.5 MW output. These were weapons capable of one shotting several hundred meter long battleships with a well placed shot, and the weapons of 0093 were more powerful by a factor of 10. In addition the Sazabi also carried a beam shot rifle and about half a dozen missiles on forearm hard points.

    And no, funnels by the time of Chars Counter Attack had maneuverability and speed greater than anything seen in Wing(when the Nu launched its Fin Funnels they moved dramatically faster than the Nu despite the Nu already moving at max speed). They're not being taken down, at least not with melee weapons.

    Also I could get into the fact the Wing suits despite having good straight line speed really never display the 360 degree maneuverability of UC suits(which makes sense when you actually analyze their thruster and maneuvering jet placement, if anything after colony suits behave more like fighter jet would) but I really don't feel like it.
    Last edited by Hiromi; 04-13-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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  5. #5

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    I always thought the Gundam Wing gundams operated on a higher power level than the UC mobile suits. Considering the damage they could take and dish out. What feats do the Sazabi's funnels have for damage output?
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  6. #6
    Lord of Apokolips The Black One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    What the Vayeate hit it vaporized, the reason the entire suit wasn't destroyed is that Trowa deliberately shifted his aim.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5YVGDUY#t=134s
    Actually, what I was refering to was later on, when Trowa was doing a demo of the Vayeate's power on national television. He fired a direct hit at the Deathscythe and still couldn't completely destroy it. Duo is watching this from one of the colonies and scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    The Sazabi's funnels had an output of 10.6 MW each, greater than the Megaparticle Gun it carried(8.8 MW). To further put this in perspective a beam rifle from 0083(carried by the Zephyranthes) was only rated at 1.5 MW output. These were weapons capable of one shotting several hundred meter long battleships with a well placed shot, and the weapons of 0093 were more powerful by a factor of 10. In addition the Sazabi also carried a beam shot rifle and about half a dozen missiles on forearm hard points.

    And no, funnels by the time of Chars Counter Attack had maneuverability and speed greater than anything seen in Wing(when the Nu launched its Fin Funnels they moved dramatically faster than the Nu despite the Nu already moving at max speed). They're not being taken down, at least not with melee weapons.

    Also I could get into the fact the Wing suits despite having good straight line speed really never display the 360 degree maneuverability of UC suits(which makes sense when you actually analyze their thruster and maneuvering jet placement, if anything after colony suits behave more like fighter jet would) but I really don't feel like it.
    All the numbers in the world don't matter when compared to the fact that the Wing Gundam's take all kinds of battleship level punishment and remain in working order. The Missles don't matter here. All the Gundam pilots in Wing show they can shoot missles out of the air with no effort. Yeah the funnels move fast, but based on what I've seen from Char Counterattack, they move no faster than what I've seen the Wing pilots pull off. And how do you figure they don't have 360 degree manuverability? They dodge beam fire and missile attacks from all side at numerous points through out the show. Allow me to demonstrate...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F2LorkdQfQ

    That Zechs, and a few shots of Treize, doing things with the Tallgeese identicle to things UC pilots were capable of doing, encluding dodging and blocking sustained fire from 6 different direction, with out the use of a Zero System.
    Last edited by The Black One; 04-14-2012 at 08:55 AM.
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  7. #7
    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black One View Post
    Actually, what I was refering to was later on, when Trowa was doing a demo of the Vayeate's power on national television. He fired a direct hit at the Deathscythe and still couldn't completely destroy it. Duo is watching this from one of the colonies and scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when it happens.
    Yeah and the Wing Gundam somehow took a direct hit from the Libra's main gun, its hard to pick whats the right showing and whats SMvsFL in Wing.


    All the numbers in the world don't matter when compared to the fact that the Wing Gundam's take all kinds of battleship level punishment and remain in working order.
    The original Gundam's beam rifle was described as a "battleship level" weapon(and for all purposes it was, it shot through everything it hit over the course of the series provided their wasn't anti beam tech involved), so that's why we need numbers to get a feel for this kind of thing. Their not that important in UC given that they only really come into play in instances like to beams hit each other(in which case the stronger beam will disperse the weaker, like here).

    The Missles don't matter here.
    Granted, I was being thorough

    All the Gundam pilots in Wing show they can shoot missles out of the air with no effort.
    You're not trying to compare a missile with a funnel right? Please tell me you're not trying to compare a missile with a funnel.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...33ijWEM#t=268s
    In any case the Epyon obviously isn't shooting down anything, it has to close to melee range(which does happen granted, but normally requires being hemmed in by the surroundings. Or the one doing the cutting down being the friggin Unicorn in NTD mode. The Unicorn can blitz stomp pretty much anything in Wing btw).

    Yeah the funnels move fast, but based on what I've seen from Char Counterattack, they move no faster than what I've seen the Wing pilots pull off.
    Unless the Epyon can be in 6 different places at once it has to pursue each individually.

    And how do you figure they don't have 360 degree manuverability? They dodge beam fire and missile attacks from all side at numerous points through out the show. Allow me to demonstrate...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F2LorkdQfQ

    That Zechs, and a few shots of Treize, doing things with the Tallgeese identicle to things UC pilots were capable of doing, encluding dodging and blocking sustained fire from 6 different direction, with out the use of a Zero System.
    I forget how awesome the Talgeese was. I'll admit my memory of Wing's faded a bit, mostly I think about the repeated shot of the Talgeese in the distance. So I'll drop that point.

    End of the day though, I don't see a suit like the Epyon able to stand up to balanced suit with remote weaponry like the Sazabi, its basically 7 on 1. And all 7 are piloted by individual Char Aznables.

    Plus the Sazabi has goodies like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...33ijWEM#t=230s

    And really, if we go another three years into UC and get into units like the Sinanju and Unicorn, is this even close anymore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2l1a6THyZc
    Last edited by Hiromi; 04-14-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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  8. #8
    Lord of Apokolips The Black One's Avatar
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    What parts of the Wing Gundam survived the hit by the Libra simply weren't hit. Lady Une managed to get Treize and herself out of most of the blast zone. What was hit was clearly vaporized. It's pretty clear what it takes to effortlessly vaporize Gundanium.

    I wasn't trying to compare the Funnels to missiles. I probably should put a bracket after that point about the missiles. My apologies for not being clearer. What I meant about the funnels is there is nothing to indicate that they can put out the kind of fire power to down the Epyon before the Epyon closes and destroys them one by one.
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