C2E2: Ultimate Crossover Event Announced

[taylor51]

Hickman had said when he came on that there was a lot of stuff that needed fixing, people assumed he meant Loeb's stuff which just isn't true. Millar messed a LOT of stuff up since the beginning of the Ultimate universe. Part of why I'm not a fan of Millar's run is due to anti-American subtext. Captain America represents America, similarly Superman is SUPPOSED to as well, but DC is deciding to mess that up too. Captain America and Superman both have another thing in common and that's that they are supposed to be able to make moral decisions that we can't. They are supposed to be the people we can relate to, they are supposed to be the people we wish we could be. Millar's run makes Cap, as MrV said, an "arrogant asshole", and while there is anti-French sentiment in America (even I'm not that too keen on the French and The Simpsons explains exactly why (couldn't find the clip, but there is an episode in season 15 where they are being chased and decide that they need to get out of the country when a Frenchman says "Come to France! And we shall mock the country that saved us twice from the Germans!"), but this isn't about me), but Millar goes overboard and even then pats himself on the back for it later. As I said, Captain America represents America, he is a symbol, and Millar knows this and if I was a foreigner and I read this as my first exposure to anything American I would hate America. What Hickman has been building to is fixing Captain America to be a better character and symbol and Peter dying was a MAJOR step forward for the character. When Kirby and Simon created Captain America he was made to rally the troops and citizens into being more supportive and patriotic and this is exactly what Hickman and Bendis are doing. "America needs it's symbol and I need my captain."

Ultimate Cap has always been more super soldier than national icon. He fills both roles simultaneously, but the focus has always been 80/20 favoring the former, and really, that's super important to his continued creative relevance; it is CRITICALLY important to the survival of the UU that characters NOT be carbon copies of their classic counterparts. Convergence leads to things like Ultimatum, people.

Ultimate Cap's core conflict is the fact that he's been displaced in time and therefore has nothing left to live for than to lose himself in service to his country, something that never really gets explored in 616 since Cap's been around basically since the classic MU's inception. While he still needs to represent "truth, justice and the American way," the spotlight doesn't need to be on that aspect of his character 24/7 because there's already a forum out there for exploring what it means for one man to typify the ideals of a nation (ie classic Cap).

I LOVE Ultimate Cap. He's way more human a character than the paragon of square jawed American ideals he is over in 616. I also don't see what makes people call him a tool lol.

[MrV]

Ultimate Cap has always been more super soldier than national icon. He fills both roles simultaneously, but the focus has always been 80/20 favoring the former, and really, that's super important to his continued creative relevance; it is CRITICALLY important to the survival of the UU that characters NOT be carbon copies of their classic counterparts. Convergence leads to things like Ultimatum, people.

Ultimate Cap's core conflict is the fact that he's been displaced in time and therefore has nothing left to live for than to lose himself in service to his country, something that never really gets explored in 616 since Cap's been around basically since the classic MU's inception. While he still needs to represent "truth, justice and the American way," the spotlight doesn't need to be on that aspect of his character 24/7 because there's already a forum out there for exploring what it means for one man to typify the ideals of a nation (ie classic Cap).

I LOVE Ultimate Cap. He's way more human a character than the paragon of square jawed American ideals he is over in 616. I also don't see what makes people call him a tool lol.

I dislike him because he hates the French and because of how he emasculated Ultimate Peter despite him starting out the same way. I love the French, they are incredible people who don't deserve the bigot sentiment from assholes like him.

[sage6paths]

I dislike him because he hates the French and because of how he emasculated Ultimate Peter despite him starting out the same way. I love the French, they are incredible people who don't deserve the bigot sentiment from assholes like him.

To be fair he said Peter was the best of them so I forgave him for that. Hickman was sly when he made Captain France into an awesome person. Too bad Cap didn't meet him when he was still alive I think they might have been friends.

[MrV]

To be fair he said Peter was the best of them so I forgave him for that. Hickman was sly when he made Captain France into an awesome person. Too bad Cap didn't meet him when he was still alive I think they might have been friends.

I remember that part from UC: Ultimates #2. It was awesome how Captain France ended up being the bravest of all and proved Britain wrong after he called him a coward.

However, that doesn't change the fact more than once Captain America expressed dislike for the wonderful people that are the French. That jackass, I'm glad his son became Red Skull. I hope that hurt his ego good. I see Red Skull being Cap's nemesis akin to when a son comes out of the closet to a father who hates gays. How can you hate your own son?

[taylor51]

I dislike him because he hates the French and because of how he emasculated Ultimate Peter despite him starting out the same way. I love the French, they are incredible people who don't deserve the bigot sentiment from assholes like him.

No particular comment on the French issue, but the whole "emasculation" angle doesn't really fly when the larger context is considered. Nothing Cap said about Peter's super-heroics was untrue. Peter WAS reckless. He WAS untrained/undisciplined. Had things gone as planned with the super hero training, what Cap said to him could have been a real turning point for Peter's career, something that could have really helped him mature as a hero. What he said becomes cruel and off-base only after those turned out to be the last words spoken to Peter before he died, and really it's just tragically unfortunate for Cap in that regard.

[MrV]

No particular comment on the French issue, but the whole "emasculation" angle doesn't really fly when the larger context is considered. Nothing Cap said about Peter's super-heroics was untrue. Peter WAS reckless. He WAS untrained/undisciplined. Had things gone as planned with the super hero training, what Cap said to him could have been a real turning point for Peter's career, something that could have really helped him mature as a hero. What he said becomes cruel and off-base only after those turned out to be the last words spoken to Peter before he died, and really it's just tragically unfortunate for Cap in that regard.

What makes it unfair is that Captain America started out the same way, as a youth full of inexperience. Check out Ultimate Spider-Man #150. There Tony points this out as well when Cap says Peter shouldn't be allowed to be a superhero because he is too young.

[sage6paths]

What makes it unfair is that Captain America started out the same way, as a youth full of inexperience. Check out Ultimate Spider-Man #150. There Tony points this out as well when Cap says Peter shouldn't be allowed to be a superhero because he is too young.

Cap was looking out for Peter safety which was why he didn't want Peter doing stuff. Also Cap didn't have anyone to tell him off so he might have been telling Peter not to do the things you do or you will become like me. Cap's real intent was love for Peter by keeping him safe.

[Wolverine12]

I remember that part from UC: Ultimates #2. It was awesome how Captain France ended up being the bravest of all and proved Britain wrong after he called him a coward.

However, that doesn't change the fact more than once Captain America expressed dislike for the wonderful people that are the French. That jackass, I'm glad his son became Red Skull. I hope that hurt his ego good. I see Red Skull being Cap's nemesis akin to when a son comes out of the closet to a father who hates gays. How can you hate your own son?

I don't think comparing the Red Skull to a gay man is very accurate. It is unreasonable to hate a son because they love the same sex. It's completely reasonable to hate a son because they are a psychotic killer who is trying to end the world.

[wyokid]

I don't think comparing the Red Skull to a gay man is very accurate. It is unreasonable to hate a son because they love the same sex. It's completely reasonable to hate a son because they are a psychotic killer who is trying to end the world.

Not seeing the difference...

[KurtW95]

Ultimate Captain America is going to die lol. Thats national attention. Who is going to replace him I wonder. 616 Cap?

No mixing of the universes.

[MarvelMaster616]

Maybe this s just my meds talking, but I get the sense that this big Ultimate event revolves around Captain America running for and/or seizing the Presidency. I mean think about it. We're in an election year and what could get more attention than an American icon seizing the Presidency? That's my prediction.

[Plawsky]

Maybe this s just my meds talking, but I get the sense that this big Ultimate event revolves around Captain America running for and/or seizing the Presidency. I mean think about it. We're in an election year and what could get more attention than an American icon seizing the Presidency? That's my prediction.

That's probably the best theory I've seen so far. I'm trying to think of something, other than a death, that would raise any kind of media buzz, but I keep coming up short. "President Cap" might do that, though. There was a bit of buzz when Spidey lost his job in ASM, so maybe this would be similar.

[Drz]

I dislike him because he hates the French

He doesn't hate the French.

and because of how he emasculated Ultimate Peter despite him starting out the same way.

Steve Rogers was never irresponsible with his powers and didn't disobey orders from his better men.

However, that doesn't change the fact more than once Captain America expressed dislike for the wonderful people that are the French. That jackass, I'm glad his son became Red Skull. I hope that hurt his ego good. I see Red Skull being Cap's nemesis akin to when a son comes out of the closet to a father who hates gays. How can you hate your own son?

Captain America never hated his son, nor can you compare homosexuality with terrorism.

Maybe this s just my meds talking, but I get the sense that this big Ultimate event revolves around Captain America running for and/or seizing the Presidency. I mean think about it. We're in an election year and what could get more attention than an American icon seizing the Presidency? That's my prediction.

That can be very possible and i would like that. In Ultimate Marvel, the world's greatest stragetist would be the best option for a President, not to mention imagen all the stuff Thor and Steve could do?

[sage6paths]

Maybe this s just my meds talking, but I get the sense that this big Ultimate event revolves around Captain America running for and/or seizing the Presidency. I mean think about it. We're in an election year and what could get more attention than an American icon seizing the Presidency? That's my prediction.

I think that is one of the best theories so far. It's going to be impossible for the president to get reelected after both the nuke event and the nimrod event as well as finding out that mutants are fake. I am surprised he is not impeached already which is why I thought that Jean Gray being in Tian took place in the future and this is why. He did get impeached.

[MarvelMaster616]

That's probably the best theory I've seen so far. I'm trying to think of something, other than a death, that would raise any kind of media buzz, but I keep coming up short. "President Cap" might do that, though. There was a bit of buzz when Spidey lost his job in ASM, so maybe this would be similar.

That can be very possible and i would like that. In Ultimate Marvel, the world's greatest stragetist would be the best option for a President, not to mention imagen all the stuff Thor and Steve could do?

I think that is one of the best theories so far. It's going to be impossible for the president to get reelected after both the nuke event and the nimrod event as well as finding out that mutants are fake. I am surprised he is not impeached already which is why I thought that Jean Gray being in Tian took place in the future and this is why. He did get impeached.

So it's NOT the meds? That's a relief. Sorry, but this is a heck of a time to be keeping up with C2E2. I don't care much for the other Ultimate books, but if this event has something like Captain America running for President then I would definitely be willing to give it a chance. I know some here think I'm overly bitter and I'll never give Ultimate a chance again, but that's just not true. If there's a great story that comes along then I'll be happy to give it a look. No such story has come yet, but I'm trying to keep an open mind here.