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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    So it's NOT the meds? That's a relief. Sorry, but this is a heck of a time to be keeping up with C2E2. I don't care much for the other Ultimate books, but if this event has something like Captain America running for President then I would definitely be willing to give it a chance. I know some here think I'm overly bitter and I'll never give Ultimate a chance again, but that's just not true. If there's a great story that comes along then I'll be happy to give it a look. No such story has come yet, but I'm trying to keep an open mind here.
    So have you read Hickman's Ultimates. This is the great story that came along. But I guess its not for everyone.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    Maybe this s just my meds talking, but I get the sense that this big Ultimate event revolves around Captain America running for and/or seizing the Presidency. I mean think about it. We're in an election year and what could get more attention than an American icon seizing the Presidency? That's my prediction.
    That is such an awesome idea, now I'll be disappointed if it doesn't happen.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by sage6paths View Post
    So have you read Hickman's Ultimates. This is the great story that came along. But I guess its not for everyone.
    I gave it a fair chance. Didn't care for it. I just found it boring and uninspiring. It wasn't terrible, but there was nothing in Ultimates that I could get excited about. That's just me though. I know many on this thread are really passionate about it so I'm not knocking those views. I just haven't found Ultimates or any of the Ultimate books all that appealing, but I'm open to giving new stories a try.
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  4. #79
    Senior Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    About a decade ago Marvel was fighting for its life with DC trying to cut off its air supply by luring away talent such as Grant Morrison. Against this threat Marvel was able to retain JMS, develop Bendis, and acquire the services of a group unhappy with their creative treatment at DC: creators associated with The Authority. In my opinion, a promise was made and now can be fulfilled with the next generation of writers of the Ultimates franchise. The existence of powers should be a society-changing event, an existential question as to the future of humanity. Superhero stories to be legitimate fiction must deal honestly with the scope of the changes that would result and not be restricted to stereotyped superhero vs supervillain fights.

    In my opinion in the crossover we are going to see this promise fulfilled, an all-out war between those with powers and ordinary humanity, at in the United States that has been rocked by a coup and now is under the control of a military dictatorship. This won't be a 616 Marvel type of Civil War where for the most part the participants do not start using lethal force; instead, in the Ultimates Universe the gloves will come off from the beginning and all shots taken will be with lethal intent.

    Those with powers will need an Ultimates version of a leader, a leader not afraid to kill, a leader willing to go to whatever extremes he feels is necessary to overthrow the illegitimate government he is fighting against. That leader is Ultimate Captain America.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky View Post
    Continuity-wise, the only stuff he's "fixed" has been Loeb stuff. And really, it's only been Thor. Very little of Hickman's run has had anything to do with the previous writers' "mistakes." But Millar couldn't have messed up continuity since the beginning, as there was none.
    What I am referring to had nothing to do with continuity, it has to do with what certain characters represent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky View Post
    America, led by the Captain himself, wins in a blaze of glory. I see nothing anti-American about this.
    "And why should I give up? So you can humiliate and execute me before your fellow officers?" Cap responds with "Don't be ridiculous. That's not the way we do things in this country." Captain America, the man WEARING the American flag, then kills a defenseless man in cold blood. What could Millar POSSIBLY be trying to say about America? For more evidence of Millar's take on America see Civil War. Or better yet Wolverine where Millar compares America to Nazis!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine #32
    I took no pleasure in our camps or our preemptive strikes, but recognized that it was necessary to fight this terror abroad just as we had done for the security of our Homeland. The Jews might have started this war when they brought down one of our finest buildings, but it's the duty of all patriots to finish it.
    Quote Originally Posted by taylor51 View Post
    Ultimate Cap has always been more super soldier than national icon. He fills both roles simultaneously, but the focus has always been 80/20 favoring the former, and really, that's super important to his continued creative relevance; it is CRITICALLY important to the survival of the UU that characters NOT be carbon copies of their classic counterparts. Convergence leads to things like Ultimatum, people.
    Then take the stars and stripes off of him. Just because this isn't the Ultimate universe doesn't mean that the characters lose their meanings.

  6. #81
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    Not seeing the difference...
    So you think being gay is the same thing as being a murder, please tell me you really aren't that dense.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    So you think being gay is the same thing as being a murder, please tell me you really aren't that dense.
    lol It was a joke, look who you are talking to, I'm the bisexual who created the LGTB Ultimate thread.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    lol It was a joke, look who you are talking to, I'm the bisexual who created the LGTB Ultimate thread.
    You had me worried there for a second buddy lol.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    "And why should I give up? So you can humiliate and execute me before your fellow officers?" Cap responds with "Don't be ridiculous. That's not the way we do things in this country." Captain America, the man WEARING the American flag, then kills a defenseless man in cold blood.
    Defenseless? Maybe. But that's hardly the whole picture. You skipped the part where, after being offered his life by Captain America, Abdul again tries to kill Captain America, abandoning the "one-on-one" fight they had agreed upon. He forced Cap's hand.

    Then, there's the aftermath, where Captain America gets rid of his ties to SHIELD because of the danger it has been posing to the country and everyone is cheering the victory in front of American flags left standing. And the book finishes with a flashback to Steve Rogers, talking about how he's willing to undergo an extremely risky experiment in order to defend his country and "help put an end to this fighting."

    What could Millar POSSIBLY be trying to say about America?
    That, in war, we'll take down those who are posing as an active, hostile threat against our nation's capital?

    And what could he POSSIBLY be trying to say about America with all the scenes showing Cap as a hero? You keep focusing on the one scene, but throughout both volumes, Cap is the good guy. I know you're very anti-killing, but just because you think he shouldn't have killed Abdul doesn't mean that Millar was trying to show him (and, by extension, America) in a negative light.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky View Post
    Defenseless? Maybe. But that's hardly the whole picture. You skipped the part where, after being offered his life by Captain America, Abdul again tries to kill Captain America, abandoning the "one-on-one" fight they had agreed upon. He forced Cap's hand.

    Then, there's the aftermath, where Captain America gets rid of his ties to SHIELD because of the danger it has been posing to the country and everyone is cheering the victory in front of American flags left standing. And the book finishes with a flashback to Steve Rogers, talking about how he's willing to undergo an extremely risky experiment in order to defend his country and "help put an end to this fighting."



    That, in war, we'll take down those who are posing as an active, hostile threat against our nation's capital?

    And what could he POSSIBLY be trying to say about America with all the scenes showing Cap as a hero? You keep focusing on the one scene, but throughout both volumes, Cap is the good guy. I know you're very anti-killing, but just because you think he shouldn't have killed Abdul doesn't mean that Millar was trying to show him (and, by extension, America) in a negative light.
    In light of today's news, this is moot point. They've fixed Cap.

  11. #86

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    I'm a little dazed right now from my meds. Were there any hints as to what this could be? I know it's Divided We Fall, but did they reveal anything else? I'm having trouble keeping up with the C2E2 panels today.
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  12. #87
    Senior Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky View Post
    America, led by the Captain himself, wins in a blaze of glory. I see nothing anti-American about this. There's even some pro-conservative implications, as the Ultimates took preemptive measures against a Middle Eastern country and they ended up being right.
    The particular year(s) Grand Theft America was published would have made it impossible for Marvel to have openly admitted it, but the United States simply lost at the end of Ultimates 2. It saddens me that this incorrect interpretation is still clung to by Wikipedia and longterm fans who should know better.

    The Liberators clearly stated their goals, not the destruction of America, merely the destruction of what they saw to be the next Roman Empire. The Liberators and their allies broke the relative monopoly the US and its Western European allies had on metahumans. They completely succeeded in terminating what would have been the next Roman Empire. The United States did not launch a retaliatory strike on any of the nations aligned with the Liberators, despite the attacking force clearly having behind it the manufacturing capacity equivalent to multiple aircraft carriers in today's world, an astronomical allocation of resources. It appeared at the end of Ultimates 2 that the Ultimates would disassociate themselves from United State control. The Liberators foot soldiers were dead in their suits anyway within 30 days, so defeating them was meaningless.

    Notice that before the Liberators attack S.H.I.E.L.D. appeared to have mass copied the ability of at least one Ultimate, but after the Liberators slaughter of these soldiers, S.H.I.E.L.D. has failed to mass transplant powers to ordinary soldiers including a failed attempt at copying the Hulk's powers.

    Hickman's run on Ultimates is the logical continuation of the political ramifications of the events following Ultimates 2. Hickman is returning to the depiction of the US in the followup to Ultimates 2, which was actually released before Ultimates 2 #13, which showed a completely devastated nation.

    To not understand that the United States lost to the Liberators in Ultimates 2 is to not understand Hickman's current story.

  13. #88
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    I really hate crossover events with tie-in books and miniseries and whatnot. I'm really glad that Divided We Fall is 3 parallel stories. I also hope this event finally gives the Ultimates a solid footing. Although I've really enjoyed it so far the Ultimates, imo, is a little too sporradic. The only constant is really the Children and the book jumps from hero to hero without lingering on one or the other for too long. It doesn't feel as if the Ultimates has its cast of characters figured out yet since the plot is very much the dirving force of the book. Hopefully Cap's return will solidify this book. or whatever....

  14. #89
    Ultimate Mod! Plawsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jphamlore View Post
    The particular year(s) Grand Theft America was published would have made it impossible for Marvel to have openly admitted it, but the United States simply lost at the end of Ultimates 2. It saddens me that this incorrect interpretation is still clung to by Wikipedia and longterm fans who should know better.
    The Liberators might have had some parts of their plans succeed, but that doesn't mean the Ultimates lost. The Ultimates and, more importantly, the country survived. At the end of the day, that's what the Ultimates are there for. The Liberators might have scored a few goals, but the Ultimates still won the game.
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  15. #90
    Senior Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky View Post
    The Liberators might have had some parts of their plans succeed, but that doesn't mean the Ultimates lost. The Ultimates and, more importantly, the country survived. At the end of the day, that's what the Ultimates are there for. The Liberators might have scored a few goals, but the Ultimates still won the game.
    Since Germany and Japan "survived" World War II and are doing well today, clearly they won it. Well in some ironic sense one may claim that, but to straight-faced assert such a thing to most people would simply be ridiculous. The Ultimate United States through S.H.I.E.L.D. in Ultimates 2 sought to monopolize metahuman powers, use such powers to enforce political goals, and establish the new equivalent of a worldwide Roman Empire. The Liberators and their allies demolished that empire and made sure it could never rise again. The Liberators achieved their primary objective, which was stated directly in the comic, of crushing this empire and delivering devastating punishment to those who would dare to attempt such a thing. They won.

    Pretending the United States won anything at the end of Ultimates 2 merely robs fandom of realizing the brilliance of Hickman's work which restores the politics, restores the new status quo that should have existed after Ultimates 2. It seems clear Hickman plans to deliver a blow to the Ultimate United States from which it cannot recover for quite some (comics) time. All the elements Millar had set up have returned, the overreach, the underestimation of those upon whom the United States would assert its authority, strident militarism leading to a catastrophe for the nation. There is apparently even going to be an equivalent to Cap and Iron Man fighting some sort of AI animated by the spirit of a dead villain among the ruins of the nation as in the followup to Ultimates 2. It's all coming back, only better.

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