AvX #2 Preview: They're Trying Really Hard to Make Cyclops Look Crazy

[trajikflp]

They Dont have a god damned choice, what part of earth burning to a cinder do you and psycho bitch cyclops not understand!

You realize this is all make-believe, right? There's no such person as Captain America. And Santa Claus isn't real. =X Sorry, for telling you that.

[quillero]

Buzz needs to search outside of his posts.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Is there any more brutal messageboard argument ammo than a well-placed Toy Story jpg? Christ.

[Optic Rage]

Some people just love to argue about nothing. Let them at it i say, they might break some sort of record.

[remydat]

Fellas, at some point you just gotta agree to disagree.

Why? Is there world going to end if we don't?

[Ebon Phantom]

This is a hindsight argument. If Bishop told Madrox that he didn't know who the hell Hope was and why his world was the way it was then what would the M have proven? Madrox didn't get the M because Bishop knew about Hope, he got it because he was a mutant. 80 years after the fact, it was entirely possible that Bishop would have no clue as to who Hope was or what she allegedly did. So again, Madrox would have had to relay the story back to them for anyone to conclude on Bishop being a traitor. And of course it makes logical sense, it is a comic in which not everything is shown on panel. Why would it need to be mentioned again when it was already shown on panel? It's wasted space.

The M would still have shown that it was Bishop who had the connection to Hope, as his future was the only one she existed in. Madrox's entire reason for being sent into the future was to figure this all out. Not being mentioned again then, perhaps, but not being mentioned ever again? Not being reference when we're within an event centered around the presumed actions? Logan not informing the Avengers of it so they would have a counterpoint to argue with the X-men with? Not a single person even giving a minor though to Bishop and maybe even trying to reason out his actions with the current situation? Doesn't make any sense for it not to have been mentioned.

And so what? Sometimes people are confronted and back down. Sometimes they don't. That proves nothing.

It proves that being confronted didn't make Scott want to back down. He didn't leave Wanda because of any perceived threat from the Avengers.

This is silly. It is eating planets right now. Who the hell realistically says let me ignore the fact it is eating planets right now or that it went DP because hey the other 4 times out of its 15 billion year history I have seen it, it has been nice.

Let's see, the last time it went crazy and wiped out a world, did it first target Earth? No, it purposely left Earth to go feel on a planet that wasn't Earth. So even though the Phoenix is suppose to be this major destructive force and a threat to the planet, and even though it was insane at the time, it still choose not to endanger the Earth even though it was on the planet at the time.

This would be like meeting someone 4 times in your life and then saying well he was nice so he couldn't possibly have killed the people the cops claimed he did. As if meeting someone 4 times in their entire life is enough to judge. We have met the PF 4 or 5 times in its 15 billion year life. It went DP once, it is eating planets right now and the other 3 or 4 times it was nice. Sorry it is a risk no one would realistic take to say it us by and large good.

Isn't it common for people to judge someone even after meeting them once? Isn't that the whole deal with "first impressions"? And we're not just talking about meeting someone four times, we're talking about spending a good portion of your time with them and even seeing them save your life several times before you make a judgement. DP was when it was driven crazy and it still left the Earth alone, which should speak plenty about it's willingness to destroy the Earth. And now we have seen it not kill the earthlings who got in it's way, even though it could have easily dealt with them with no problem. So it still has yet to show any risk towards the Earth itself.

Even if we assume only 2 outcomes, a coin could land on heads 4 times in a row. Does that mean the other 15 billion times I flip it, it will land on heads? This is effectively what you are saying. Because you have seen the PF land on heads 4 times, that means that the other 15 billion times it must have landed on heads too. That is ridiculous. The sample is too small to infer any conclusion about the overall population. This is a basic concept in mathematics/statistics. It is not even worth debating this further. Click on any of the below articles in the link for scientific analysis. If you want to debate this further then take it up with the people who came up with statistic analysis and probability.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_y...fr=yfp-t-702-s

It's not merely the four coin tosses, it's also the known record of coin tosses never landing on tail and the only time it did land on tail was when it was purposely put out of the ordinary. And you would note the problems that apply to small sample sizes don't factor in here. There's only two choices being represented, thus no lack of representation on other options, and there isn't any wasted resources nor subject risks.

Where was her brother when she was fighting Dr. Strange? Again, your are giving an opinion. I see Magik fighting whether her brother is around or not. Do you think Pixie can beat Dr. Strange. She is a teleporter with limited offensive capability when compared to Magik

It's not opinion unless you can show her importance before that moment. And Magik fighting Dr Strange wouldn't require her to be on the team. Just look at Fear Itself, where Scott send her off while still keeping Pixie as his personal transport the entire time.

Return at a pre-arranged time, lol. It is fucking Limbo. Time is not the same there. There is no guarantee that when she returns she will be able to find them or that they will still be the same age. She could return and 100 years have passed in Limbo. Or worse, she returns and then has to search for them in Limbo ALONE. Did they not have to go looking for Magik but you think someone Pixie will be able to just pop in at the exact location they are at. What, you think she can just tell them let's meet up at 5pm at the local drive in? It would be asinine to have Pixie return and wonder about Limbo alone. And please to come back with well Cyke could have sent someone because all that does is risk more people. Look the decision was simply, you are decide to save Magik in which case Pixie has to go and it is safer for everyone for her to remain with the team or you decide fuck it and leave Magik in Limbo.

Right, because them having traveled to Limbo before wouldn't be aware of the time difference, especially Pixie who traveled around it on her own before. Um, when one makes a prearranged time, usually that means that the soldiers on the mission will head back to the place they were dropped off at, not that the teleportation would search them out. There would be no need to have her wander around alone. And no, potentially risking one teleporter to possibly save another when you could easily have had it both ways does not make strategic sense.

You are confusing Scot not trusting her with her strategic value. Magik is a better offensive weapon than Pixie plus she is a teleporter. That simply has more strategic value that Pixie who is a teleporter but not as gifter a sorceress.

Not at all. Better offensive weapon? That would only factor in if Scott regularly used her for her magical ability and he doesn't. As shown during Fear Itself, having her make use of her magic doesn't require her to be an actual part of the team.

No it wasn't. The only Avenger who wanted Hope dead was Wolverine. As for Nightcrawler, who had negative feelings for his sacrifice. They were negative feelings that he died not that he was willing to sacrifice his life for someone elses.

Yes, it was. Scott's acting under the belief that the Avengers take Hope and doom the entire world. If that's not a life or death situation, I don't know what is. Dani and others were angry over Nightcrawler having to die just to save Hope.

Whether he is being more protective or not is irrelevant. I already said he has given up trying to keep her from fighting and she is on the Extinction Team so why would she still need a supervisor?

How is it irrelevant when the issue here is over the idea that Scott would do anything to keep Hope alive? Why would she need a supervisor? To protect her if things got dicey on one of the Light's mission, like what happen with Unit? Since Hope never had a problem with being watched over, there's no reason for him not to have her being watched over unless he felt she was safe on her own and thus would have been treating her like any other X-men.

Logan is not in the clique anymore. And Mags his is right hand man and head of his wetworks squad apparently. Did I claim others were not given leeway. I just said they are not given as much as Hope. Cyke is not stupid. This is like running a sports team. You have the superstars allowed to break the rules and then you have the scrubs who if they do they get fined. Hope is the Super Star. Mags is up there too.

You say that as if the only times Logan tried to kill him had been after he left. And what? Magneto doesn't head any wetworks squad nor acts as the right hand man. How are they not getting as much leeway as Hope did and who exactly has Scott not given any leeway too? Exactly who are these so-called scrubs?

[remydat]

The M would still have shown that it was Bishop who had the connection to Hope, as his future was the only one she existed in. Madrox's entire reason for being sent into the future was to figure this all out. Not being mentioned again then, perhaps, but not being mentioned ever again? Not being reference when we're within an event centered around the presumed actions? Logan not informing the Avengers of it so they would have a counterpoint to argue with the X-men with? Not a single person even giving a minor though to Bishop and maybe even trying to reason out his actions with the current situation? Doesn't make any sense for it not to have been mentioned.

No it wouldn't. It is a reality. A reality with say 9 billion people in it. Bishop having lived 80 years after Hope may not have a clue who she was so there would be no connection. This would be like me visiting you and assuming you know about some person who lived 80 years agao. So again, the only way you get the connection is if Madrox actually relays that Bishop did in fact know who Hope was and hated her enough to kill her. In a comic with limited space, there is simply no reason to bring it up again when we as readers are already aware of it. Even if you are a casual reader of the X-men you would know the basic story that Bishop wants Hope dead because he thinks she is a threat. It's been a plot book in the X-books for years.

It proves that being confronted didn't make Scott want to back down. He didn't leave Wanda because of any perceived threat from the Avengers.

No, he could have easily left Wanda because it wasn't worth the fight. Again, all of this is just speculation.

Let's see, the last time it went crazy and wiped out a world, did it first target Earth? No, it purposely left Earth to go feel on a planet that wasn't Earth. So even though the Phoenix is suppose to be this major destructive force and a threat to the planet, and even though it was insane at the time, it still choose not to endanger the Earth even though it was on the planet at the time.

So what? If a murderer chooses not to murder me today, does that mean I should just assume it will not murder me tomorrow? This is non-sensical.

Isn't it common for people to judge someone even after meeting them once? Isn't that the whole deal with "first impressions"? And we're not just talking about meeting someone four times, we're talking about spending a good portion of your time with them and even seeing them save your life several times before you make a judgement. DP was when it was driven crazy and it still left the Earth alone, which should speak plenty about it's willingness to destroy the Earth. And now we have seen it not kill the earthlings who got in it's way, even though it could have easily dealt with them with no problem. So it still has yet to show any risk towards the Earth itself.

And first impressions are often wrong. Again, if you want to judge the PF go right ahead. Just stop acting like everyone should be so willing to gamble the planet on anecdotal evidence. And again, who cares if it left the earth alone. There is no guarantee it will do so again. Again, we don't know enough about it or how it thinks to make any definitive conclusions. It is a cosmic entity. This would be like saying well God didn't kill me today so that means he will not kill me tomorrow. Who the fuck knows, God like the PF is an entity that is outside of our understanding.

It's not merely the four coin tosses, it's also the known record of coin tosses never landing on tail and the only time it did land on tail was when it was purposely put out of the ordinary. And you would note the problems that apply to small sample sizes don't factor in here. There's only two choices being represented, thus no lack of representation on other options, and there isn't any wasted resources nor subject risks.

It is eating planets RIGHT NOW. It is on heads RIGHT NOW. The small smaple size is not in the number of choices, it is in the fact that over the entire population ie its 15 billion years, we have only heard stories about it that account of 100 years of its life really. It was in Jean for what a few years, Rachel for a few years and a couple of Shiar hosts for a few years. You don't know what the fuck it was doing the other times. It has landed on tails for about 100 years. For the other 14,999,999,900 years, we don't know if it landed on tails or heads. That is the very definition of a small sample size. And even then we know that RIGHT NOW it is eating planets and is on heads right now.

It's not opinion unless you can show her importance before that moment. And Magik fighting Dr Strange wouldn't require her to be on the team. Just look at Fear Itself, where Scott send her off while still keeping Pixie as his personal transport the entire time.

Pixie is just that, personal transport and not much else. A teleporter is valuable. A teleporter who is also a sorceress supreme is even more valuable. This has nothing to do with who Scott has as his personal caddy. This is about who has more strategic value and the answer is Magik because not only is she a teleporter, her offensive capabaility far out ways Pixie.

Right, because them having traveled to Limbo before wouldn't be aware of the time difference, especially Pixie who traveled around it on her own before. Um, when one makes a prearranged time, usually that means that the soldiers on the mission will head back to the place they were dropped off at, not that the teleportation would search them out. There would be no need to have her wander around alone. And no, potentially risking one teleporter to possibly save another when you could easily have had it both ways does not make strategic sense.

This is just silly. The minute they landed in Limbo the landscape changed, the terrain was moving beneath their feet. There is no such thing as meet me outside the Mickey D's at 7pm. Pixie said Limbo was in pain and it looked nothing like it usually does. So no, they could not just meet back at a pre-arranged spot and time because the ALL OF LIMBO kept changing.

Not at all. Better offensive weapon? That would only factor in if Scott regularly used her for her magical ability and he doesn't. As shown during Fear Itself, having her make use of her magic doesn't require her to be an actual part of the team.

Again, she has more strategic value. I could care less about her being on a team or not. She is more valuable.

Yes, it was. Scott's acting under the belief that the Avengers take Hope and doom the entire world. If that's not a life or death situation, I don't know what is. Dani and others were angry over Nightcrawler having to die just to save Hope.

Scott casually comes up to Wolvy and discusses things with him in WATXM 10. There is no hint of panic or desperation in him. So no, I don't think he thinks it was life and death like you make it out to be because. And Dani and others were angry that he died. They were not angry at his being willing to sacrifice his life for Hope. That is what heroes doe.

How is it irrelevant when the issue here is over the idea that Scott would do anything to keep Hope alive? Why would she need a supervisor? To protect her if things got dicey on one of the Light's mission, like what happen with Unit? Since Hope never had a problem with being watched over, there's no reason for him not to have her being watched over unless he felt she was safe on her own and thus would have been treating her like any other X-men.

Once I as a parent decide to take off the training wheels, what would be the point of putting them back on. Scott decided that Hope no longer needed training wheels. That does mean he no longer thinks she is the most important person to protect, it is a recognition that there is no point in fighting the inevitable. By your rationale any parent who allows their kid to grow up must hate their kids for no longer watching their every move.

You say that as if the only times Logan tried to kill him had been after he left. And what? Magneto doesn't head any wetworks squad nor acts as the right hand man. How are they not getting as much leeway as Hope did and who exactly has Scott not given any leeway too? Exactly who are these so-called scrubs?

Wolvy was one of the top X-men. Cyke admits this in WATXM 10. He got leeway. Cyke says at one point during Schism how much he leans on Mags now. Mags is basically his consigliere. And I was exaggerating about the wetworks thing as I was talking about how Cyke sent Mags on the mission with Legion and told Mags to kill Legion if he became a threat. And again Wolvy is gone. Hope when she threatened to leave was appeased to stay.

[Ebon Phantom]

No it wouldn't. It is a reality. A reality with say 9 billion people in it. Bishop having lived 80 years after Hope may not have a clue who she was so there would be no connection. This would be like me visiting you and assuming you know about some person who lived 80 years agao. So again, the only way you get the connection is if Madrox actually relays that Bishop did in fact know who Hope was and hated her enough to kill her. In a comic with limited space, there is simply no reason to bring it up again when we as readers are already aware of it. Even if you are a casual reader of the X-men you would know the basic story that Bishop wants Hope dead because he thinks she is a threat. It's been a plot book in the X-books for years.

Why wouldn't he have a clue about someone who holds a pretty important place in the world? The fact that she at the very least restarted the mutant race makes her pretty important to mutants, whether out of love or hate. And when someone accomplishes something really important and world changing, they'll normally quite well known by the public. That's what makes key figures from history key figures. And I can name numerous comics where minor information get's repeated over and over again. How many times has Surge mention her dead classmates or mutants being "feared and hated". Heck, Jean's time as the Phoenix keeps getting mention in nearly every issue and tie-in of this event. So claiming the situation with Bishop wouldn't be mentioned again even one because of space or repetition is clearly wrong.

No, he could have easily left Wanda because it wasn't worth the fight. Again, all of this is just speculation.

Nothing between the first attempt and the second changed, except Doom taking the blame for her actions. The speculation is that he suddenly saw it as not worth it to take Wanda with them.

So what? If a murderer chooses not to murder me today, does that mean I should just assume it will not murder me tomorrow? This is non-sensical.

No it's not. Unless you have actual prove to assume that said murderer will in fact murder you, why would you assume they would murder you?

And first impressions are often wrong. Again, if you want to judge the PF go right ahead. Just stop acting like everyone should be so willing to gamble the planet on anecdotal evidence. And again, who cares if it left the earth alone. There is no guarantee it will do so again. Again, we don't know enough about it or how it thinks to make any definitive conclusions. It is a cosmic entity. This would be like saying well God didn't kill me today so that means he will not kill me tomorrow. Who the fuck knows, God like the PF is an entity that is outside of our understanding.

I'm pretty sure first impression aren't often wrong, thus the reason they're so important. It's far from anecdotal evidence. The fact that it has left the Earth alone every time it was here says it all. Heck, we just learnt of another situation where the Phoenix came to Earth and bonded with a host without destroying the Earth. We have a ton of evidence to support the idea that the Phoenix isn't a threat to the Earth and nothing to refute it. And since there is nothing at all suggesting this time is any different, there's no reason to assume it will be.

It is eating planets RIGHT NOW. It is on heads RIGHT NOW. The small smaple size is not in the number of choices, it is in the fact that over the entire population ie its 15 billion years, we have only heard stories about it that account of 100 years of its life really. It was in Jean for what a few years, Rachel for a few years and a couple of Shiar hosts for a few years. You don't know what the fuck it was doing the other times. It has landed on tails for about 100 years. For the other 14,999,999,900 years, we don't know if it landed on tails or heads. That is the very definition of a small sample size. And even then we know that RIGHT NOW it is eating planets and is on heads right now.

You keep saying a hundred years and ignoring the additional history of the Shi'ar. Regardless, it wiping out the other planets doesn't change the fact that it's never been a threat to the Earth. As mention before, an insane Phoenix left Earth to wipe out a planet, instead of wiping out the Earth. Currently while in the middle of wiping out said planets, the Phoenix choose to spare a bunch of Earthlings instead of burning them to cinder. There's a clear difference in how it treats the Earth.

Pixie is just that, personal transport and not much else. A teleporter is valuable. A teleporter who is also a sorceress supreme is even more valuable. This has nothing to do with who Scott has as his personal caddy. This is about who has more strategic value and the answer is Magik because not only is she a teleporter, her offensive capabaility far out ways Pixie.

Right, her offensive capabilities are so much better that she's the one who he calls to fight, not Pixie... Oh wait, she's not the one he calls to fight at his side, that's was Pixie. Clearly she wasn't of such strategic importance considering how rarely she was used...

This is just silly. The minute they landed in Limbo the landscape changed, the terrain was moving beneath their feet. There is no such thing as meet me outside the Mickey D's at 7pm. Pixie said Limbo was in pain and it looked nothing like it usually does. So no, they could not just meet back at a pre-arranged spot and time because the ALL OF LIMBO kept changing.

Unless you're saying it's spacial position also changed, then they would in fact still have been able to meet up despite the terrain changing. Obviously they could have return if they were capable of locating each other again and again.

Again, she has more strategic value. I could care less about her being on a team or not. She is more valuable.

So much value that she was used much less then Pixie, right?

Scott casually comes up to Wolvy and discusses things with him in WATXM 10. There is no hint of panic or desperation in him. So no, I don't think he thinks it was life and death like you make it out to be because. And Dani and others were angry that he died. They were not angry at his being willing to sacrifice his life for Hope. That is what heroes doe.

Um, being able to casually discuss things after all the action doesn't change that the fighting itself was pretty much life and death. And they outright confronted Hope about Kurt having to die. They were specifically angry at him dying for her, a person they didn't even know.

Once I as a parent decide to take off the training wheels, what would be the point of putting them back on. Scott decided that Hope no longer needed training wheels. That does mean he no longer thinks she is the most important person to protect, it is a recognition that there is no point in fighting the inevitable. By your rationale any parent who allows their kid to grow up must hate their kids for no longer watching their every move.

See, you keep skipping things. Him deciding to take off the training wheels and let Hope be was the whole supervisory thing. There was no "fighting the inevitable" because Hope was alright with having a supervisor accompany her. It was a compromise for the both of them. There was no reason for Scott to change that. How exactly does allowing Hope to risk her life unprotected work with the argument of Scott seeing her as so important that he's willing to "risk less valuable pawns" to protect her?

Wolvy was one of the top X-men. Cyke admits this in WATXM 10. He got leeway. Cyke says at one point during Schism how much he leans on Mags now. Mags is basically his consigliere. And I was exaggerating about the wetworks thing as I was talking about how Cyke sent Mags on the mission with Legion and told Mags to kill Legion if he became a threat. And again Wolvy is gone. Hope when she threatened to leave was appeased to stay.

As if Logan was always favored by Scott. And Magneto is far from being a consigliere. Again I asked, you say that the superstars gets to break the rules while the scrubs don't, then who exactly are these scrubs Scott hadn't given any leeway to?

[remydat]

Why wouldn't he have a clue about someone who holds a pretty important place in the world? The fact that she at the very least restarted the mutant race makes her pretty important to mutants, whether out of love or hate. And when someone accomplishes something really important and world changing, they'll normally quite well known by the public. That's what makes key figures from history key figures. And I can name numerous comics where minor information get's repeated over and over again. How many times has Surge mention her dead classmates or mutants being "feared and hated". Heck, Jean's time as the Phoenix keeps getting mention in nearly every issue and tie-in of this event. So claiming the situation with Bishop wouldn't be mentioned again even one because of space or repetition is clearly wrong.

Who started WWI? I guarantee you a large portion of the population has no fucking clue. It's history, some people remember it and some people could care less. Further Hope didn't have to be important to history. If it happened that she did not kill a million people then Bishop would have no reason to hate her so again, it is only through Madrox recounting the story taht anyone would be aware of why Bishop would have cause to betray them. And I never said it wouldn't be mentioned again, I said it does not have to. Hardcore readers already know the Bishop thing and casual readers don't need to know to enjoy AvX. So again, I see no reason why it would have to be mentioned again. It's a writer's whim.

Nothing between the first attempt and the second changed, except Doom taking the blame for her actions. The speculation is that he suddenly saw it as not worth it to take Wanda with them.

And Doom taking the blame would be reason enough for it to no longer be worth it. Why would I be gung ho about holding Wanda accountable if new information comes out that she was not in her right mind. Again, nothing in that story suggests to me the reason was because Cyke has some big plan for Wanda. If you want to believe that go ahead.

No it's not. Unless you have actual prove to assume that said murderer will in fact murder you, why would you assume they would murder you?

Proof? I am not concerned about guilt or innocence, I am concerned about my safety. If I know a murderer is still killing people (see PF eating planets), I am not going to wait until he tries to kill me before being on guard. The whole point is to prepare for a threat not wait until the threat attacks you which may be too late.

I'm pretty sure first impression aren't often wrong, thus the reason they're so important. It's far from anecdotal evidence. The fact that it has left the Earth alone every time it was here says it all. Heck, we just learnt of another situation where the Phoenix came to Earth and bonded with a host without destroying the Earth. We have a ton of evidence to support the idea that the Phoenix isn't a threat to the Earth and nothing to refute it. And since there is nothing at all suggesting this time is any different, there's no reason to assume it will be.

Of course they are. People misjudge people all the time. Discrimination/racism at its core is someone misjudging someone based on their first impression.

You keep saying a hundred years and ignoring the additional history of the Shi'ar. Regardless, it wiping out the other planets doesn't change the fact that it's never been a threat to the Earth. As mention before, an insane Phoenix left Earth to wipe out a planet, instead of wiping out the Earth. Currently while in the middle of wiping out said planets, the Phoenix choose to spare a bunch of Earthlings instead of burning them to cinder. There's a clear difference in how it treats the Earth.

The Shi'ar just sent a team to kill Hope in WATXM 10. I am pretty sure the Shi'ar believe the Phoenix to be a force of destruction so not sure how that helps you. And I was talking about the actual time we have seen the Phoenix. I know it possessed Rookshi'ar but do the shi'ar have information on its life over a long period of time. I thought it was like Earth in that it pops up in their history for a brief time here and there. And I don't care how it treats the earth now. Given how little we know about it, I would be on guard with it.

Right, her offensive capabilities are so much better that she's the one who he calls to fight, not Pixie... Oh wait, she's not the one he calls to fight at his side, that's was Pixie. Clearly she wasn't of such strategic importance considering how rarely she was used...

Are you denying that they are? A nuclear weapon is not used as often as regular missile but it is still more powerful and of more strategic importance.

Unless you're saying it's spacial position also changed, then they would in fact still have been able to meet up despite the terrain changing. Obviously they could have return if they were capable of locating each other again and again.

Northstar says it will be impossible to find Magik. And if they get separated which they did how exactly will they get back to the same location when the Boulder for example that marked where they came in is no longer there because the landscape keeps changing. You confuse the fact that for story purposes the writer obviously wrote them finding each other as evidence that they knew where they were going. They didn't. They just happened to stumble onto each other again because it is a fictional story.

So much value that she was used much less then Pixie, right?

See comment above about nuclear weapon.

Um, being able to casually discuss things after all the action doesn't change that the fighting itself was pretty much life and death. And they outright confronted Hope about Kurt having to die. They were specifically angry at him dying for her, a person they didn't even know.

No it wasn't. After this is all over the Avengers and X-men will go back to being on decent terms. This was a pissing contest. And of course they are angry their friend died. That still doesn't mean his sacrifice was negative. It just means they were better friends with Nightcrawler than they were with Hope.

See, you keep skipping things. Him deciding to take off the training wheels and let Hope be was the whole supervisory thing. There was no "fighting the inevitable" because Hope was alright with having a supervisor accompany her. It was a compromise for the both of them. There was no reason for Scott to change that. How exactly does allowing Hope to risk her life unprotected work with the argument of Scott seeing her as so important that he's willing to "risk less valuable pawns" to protect her?

Hope is the mutant messiah. I am pretty sure part of being the messiah is that she will actually have to fight. He can't coddle her forever as a messiah generally has to put their life on the line at some point in order to qualify as a messiah.

As if Logan was always favored by Scott. And Magneto is far from being a consigliere. Again I asked, you say that the superstars gets to break the rules while the scrubs don't, then who exactly are these scrubs Scott hadn't given any leeway to?

Cyke doesn't need to like Wolvy. Wolvy was always of strategic value whether they liked each other or not. As for Mags, I disagree, Cyke pretty much said as much during schism. The dude has been good for what less than 1 marvel year and he is already on the Extinction Team.

[fortyseven]

Ebon+remydat is the romance of the decade.

[godzilla2099]

"No More Avengers"

Seriously, of course they are trying to make him look crazy.

This stupid event pisses me off. After the Mesiah Complex, Cyclops's Tactics saved mutant kind several times.
Now after all this hard word and character development, we get House of M part 2. Unless he has a damn good reason for
doing something like this, he'll be going off to the dark side.

[Ebon Phantom]

Who started WWI? I guarantee you a large portion of the population has no fucking clue. It's history, some people remember it and some people could care less. Further Hope didn't have to be important to history. If it happened that she did not kill a million people then Bishop would have no reason to hate her so again, it is only through Madrox recounting the story taht anyone would be aware of why Bishop would have cause to betray them. And I never said it wouldn't be mentioned again, I said it does not have to. Hardcore readers already know the Bishop thing and casual readers don't need to know to enjoy AvX. So again, I see no reason why it would have to be mentioned again. It's a writer's whim.

What do you mean "who started WW1"? That's a vague sort of question that could have several answers. And when history has an important effect on a group, people tend to remember it. Hope was automatically important to history by her very presents, the first mutant born after Decimation, which restarted mutantkind in only two future timelines, one of which they knew nothing important happen in. That only left that one timeline and Bishop being connected to it automatically made him a person of interest. It does have to be mentioned again, as I pointed out, information like it is always mentioned again, especially when it would play a major role towards people actions. How many time since the event started have they mentioned Jean and her actions during the Dark Phoenix saga? They mention it nearly each issue.

And Doom taking the blame would be reason enough for it to no longer be worth it. Why would I be gung ho about holding Wanda accountable if new information comes out that she was not in her right mind. Again, nothing in that story suggests to me the reason was because Cyke has some big plan for Wanda. If you want to believe that go ahead.

How would Doom taking the blame make it no longer worth it? They didn't believe in the slightest that Doom was actually behind it. "A man in love would say anything". Considering his proven record of having things planned out, there's no way he wouldn't have factored her in.

Proof? I am not concerned about guilt or innocence, I am concerned about my safety. If I know a murderer is still killing people (see PF eating planets), I am not going to wait until he tries to kill me before being on guard. The whole point is to prepare for a threat not wait until the threat attacks you which may be too late.

Even if said killer is killing specific targets and you don't fit the criteria? Even if the killer has a long history of not harming you, even going out of his way to kill someone else instead of you? Even if the killer, when given the chance and reason to kill, doesn't? You would be preparing for a threat against something that hasn't threaten you.

Of course they are. People misjudge people all the time. Discrimination/racism at its core is someone misjudging someone based on their first impression.

Discrimination/racism isn't judging someone from a first impression, it's judging someone based upon the actions of their group. Discrimination/racism can happen without ever meeting the person.

The Shi'ar just sent a team to kill Hope in WATXM 10. I am pretty sure the Shi'ar believe the Phoenix to be a force of destruction so not sure how that helps you. And I was talking about the actual time we have seen the Phoenix. I know it possessed Rookshi'ar but do the shi'ar have information on its life over a long period of time. I thought it was like Earth in that it pops up in their history for a brief time here and there. And I don't care how it treats the earth now. Given how little we know about it, I would be on guard with it.

Except they're not coming to kill Hope because the Phoenix is destructive, they're acting to prevent a future conflict with it. That's a whole different situation. And speaking of which, clearly we have seen a multitude of aliens not only not fearing the Phoenix flying across the galaxies, but even having fun with it's actions. And the Kree clearly don't seem to think the Phoenix is nothing but destruction. The Phoenix is directly connected to the M'Kraan Crystal for them, and the source of psionic energy for all realities. So their history seems a little more deeper then simply

Are you denying that they are? A nuclear weapon is not used as often as regular missile but it is still more powerful and of more strategic importance.

So if said nuclear weapon isn't used, even in a situation where it would be more useful then the regular missile, and even when the other nuclear weapons are regularly used, then it does bring up the question of it's strategic importance. It's not like Magneto or Storm isn't used every chance he got.

Northstar says it will be impossible to find Magik. And if they get separated which they did how exactly will they get back to the same location when the Boulder for example that marked where they came in is no longer there because the landscape keeps changing. You confuse the fact that for story purposes the writer obviously wrote them finding each other as evidence that they knew where they were going. They didn't. They just happened to stumble onto each other again because it is a fictional story.

It was impossible because they didn't know where she was at in the first place. And there are other means of getting back to a certain place then simply leaving a marker. And no, I wasn't confusing it. My point was that them being able to find each other meant they couldn't have traveled very far apart.

See comment above about nuclear weapon.

Obviously not the case for the likes of Magento and Storm.

No it wasn't. After this is all over the Avengers and X-men will go back to being on decent terms. This was a pissing contest. And of course they are angry their friend died. That still doesn't mean his sacrifice was negative. It just means they were better friends with Nightcrawler than they were with Hope.

How is acting under the belief of the eventual doom of their race and the world if Hope is gotten not life and death? And they were specifically angered at him dying due to Hope. It was more then just him dying.

Hope is the mutant messiah. I am pretty sure part of being the messiah is that she will actually have to fight. He can't coddle her forever as a messiah generally has to put their life on the line at some point in order to qualify as a messiah.

Um, no. Normally a messiah wouldn't have to fight. In fact, I can't think of any examples of a messiah fighting. Messiahs are worshiped and eventually killed/sacrificed, but not thrown into battle.

Cyke doesn't need to like Wolvy. Wolvy was always of strategic value whether they liked each other or not. As for Mags, I disagree, Cyke pretty much said as much during schism. The dude has been good for what less than 1 marvel year and he is already on the Extinction Team.

When they liked each other, Scott actually used Logan more then when they were against each other. He tended to be running wild during those times. And unless Scott listens and takes advice from him, Magneto isn't anything like a consigliere. Magento's on the team because he's strong and seen as a threat to the world. Namor and Danger are on the team too, yet they aren't important specifically to Scott. And if Scott grants leeway to anyone, then it's not an example of anyone's importance.

[remydat]

What do you mean "who started WW1"? That's a vague sort of question that could have several answers. And when history has an important effect on a group, people tend to remember it. Hope was automatically important to history by her very presents, the first mutant born after Decimation, which restarted mutantkind in only two future timelines, one of which they knew nothing important happen in. That only left that one timeline and Bishop being connected to it automatically made him a person of interest. It does have to be mentioned again, as I pointed out, information like it is always mentioned again, especially when it would play a major role towards people actions. How many time since the event started have they mentioned Jean and her actions during the Dark Phoenix saga? They mention it nearly each issue.

Yes but you are assuming that 80 years later Hope would still be relevant. Hope could have died long before anyone knew her and another messiah been born. Anything could have happened in the 80 years since Hope's birth to have made her completely irrelevant or obscure to that timeline. And they did not know that nothing important happened in the other timeline. They sent another Madrox dupe to the other timeline as well. No one except Layla (who went with the dupe to Bishop's timeline) knew a damn thing about which timeline was more important or what role Hope played in either. So again, Madrox would have had to fill them in on all the details. That other dupe who went to that other timeline in fact became Cortex and was sent to kill all the future leaders of the Summers Rebellion.

How would Doom taking the blame make it no longer worth it? They didn't believe in the slightest that Doom was actually behind it. "A man in love would say anything". Considering his proven record of having things planned out, there's no way he wouldn't have factored her in.

I may believe someone is a criminal but that doesn't mean I will fight it if someone else confesses and I have no proof. It simply became pointless for the X-men to continue to fight it given how the story unfolded. What was Cyke's backup plan for the Museum attack? What was his back-up plan for when Rogue's team betrayed the X-men at the start of MC. Give me a break dude. Cyke is not god, the dude has been caught without a plan plenty of times. If Cyke always has a plan and countless back-up plans then he must be one of the shittiest planners of all time to always have a plan but yet the X-men find themselves usually getting their ass handed to them initially before ultimately winning because they are the heroes.

Even if said killer is killing specific targets and you don't fit the criteria? Even if the killer has a long history of not harming you, even going out of his way to kill someone else instead of you? Even if the killer, when given the chance and reason to kill, doesn't? You would be preparing for a threat against something that hasn't threaten you.

Again, I don't think there is definitive evidence of the PF's criteria. You are assuming you know based on a small window that you have witnessed. It is not a long history from the perspective of the PF. There is no government in the world that would not assume the PF is a threat based on the limited knowledge we have of it and simply stick its head in the sand and say well it hasn't fucked us up yet so lets not prepare for it.

Discrimination/racism isn't judging someone from a first impression, it's judging someone based upon the actions of their group. Discrimination/racism can happen without ever meeting the person.

It is judging them from a first impression because your first impression is based on seeing or being told they are black for example. A racist would simply stop right there and conclude on that person. And I have interviewed candidates plenty of times and formed first impressions based on their resumes and how they present themselves in an interview only for that first impression to be totally wrong. Some people are naturally better at presenting themselves than others.

Except they're not coming to kill Hope because the Phoenix is destructive, they're acting to prevent a future conflict with it. That's a whole different situation. And speaking of which, clearly we have seen a multitude of aliens not only not fearing the Phoenix flying across the galaxies, but even having fun with it's actions. And the Kree clearly don't seem to think the Phoenix is nothing but destruction. The Phoenix is directly connected to the M'Kraan Crystal for them, and the source of psionic energy for all realities. So their history seems a little more deeper then simply

You specifically said the Shi'ar have this nice long history with the PF and so I pointed out that the nice long history is one of the Shi'ar trying to kill it because they think it is a destructive force and now you switch to the Kree? The fact is the civilization that you said is well versed in the PF thinks it is a danger. I could care less about the Kree because you did not mention them originally.

So if said nuclear weapon isn't used, even in a situation where it would be more useful then the regular missile, and even when the other nuclear weapons are regularly used, then it does bring up the question of it's strategic importance. It's not like Magneto or Storm isn't used every chance he got.

Except it is being used. Magik is being used right now. She was used in SC and when she was taken out, a team was sent to bring her back.

It was impossible because they didn't know where she was at in the first place. And there are other means of getting back to a certain place then simply leaving a marker. And no, I wasn't confusing it. My point was that them being able to find each other meant they couldn't have traveled very far apart.

Northstar specifically says in response to the landscape changing that it will be impossible to find Magik. It is right there for anyone to read. Again, it is absurd to pretend that there was any real way for them to find each other. They simply found each other because the writer wanted them to. It is debatable whether Pixie can come back to the exact spot she dropped them off and even if she could, it would not look to her like the same spot because the landscape would be completely different. So once again, once you decide to go after Magik, Pixie has to go along and stay with the team otherwise you risk her coming back alone and trying to find her away around when the entire landscape is now different.

Obviously not the case for the likes of Magento and Storm.

Not sure your point. The way characters are used changes all the time. Mags and Storm have periods where Cyke did not use them a lot and periods where he uses them more. Magik is no different.

How is acting under the belief of the eventual doom of their race and the world if Hope is gotten not life and death? And they were specifically angered at him dying due to Hope. It was more then just him dying.

Because Cyke had no reason to believe Hope was going to be killed. They simply wanted her off planet and there would be nothing preventing her from being trained off planet. And no one disputes people were upset with Nightcrawler dying. I am disputing the notion that sacrificing yourself for someone else has a negative connotation. It doesn't. Plenty of people sacrifice for their countries or others and are celebrated as heroes. Nightcrawler is not any less of a hero because he died for Hope. There were just people who were pissed because they would have preferred he did not sacrifice himself for Hope but that does not mean his sacrfice was negative.

Um, no. Normally a messiah wouldn't have to fight. In fact, I can't think of any examples of a messiah fighting. Messiahs are worshiped and eventually killed/sacrificed, but not thrown into battle.

Messiah is a Jewish term. If you read the Old Testament or ask anyone who is a practicing Jew, the messiah is meant to come and destroy the enemies of the Jews. This is one of the reasons Jesus was not seen as the messiah by many Jews because instead of destroying the enemies of the Jews, he sacrificed himself instead. Incidentally, Christians got around this thorny issue by saying when Jesus comes back that is when he will fulfill his role as the messiah and destroy evil so even Christians believe in a messiah who will fight and lay waste to the enemies of Christianity. The Jews and Christians simply disagree regarding timing. So sorry, a Messiah was always intended to be someone who would fight.

When they liked each other, Scott actually used Logan more then when they were against each other. He tended to be running wild during those times. And unless Scott listens and takes advice from him, Magneto isn't anything like a consigliere. Magento's on the team because he's strong and seen as a threat to the world. Namor and Danger are on the team too, yet they aren't important specifically to Scott. And if Scott grants leeway to anyone, then it's not an example of anyone's importance.

Cyke is a general. Like and dislike mean nothing. You are confusing trust and like. Cyke has trusted Wolvy more during certain times than others. And again, during Schism Cyke specifically talks about how much he has come to trust and value Mags' opinion. You are free to believe what you want. I am simply saying what was said in the actual book by Cyke himself in regards to Mags.

[DexterSinister]

Again, I don't think there is definitive evidence of the PF's criteria. You are assuming you know based on a small window that you have witnessed. It is not a long history from the perspective of the PF. There is no government in the world that would not assume the PF is a threat based on the limited knowledge we have of it and simply stick its head in the sand and say well it hasn't fucked us up yet so lets not prepare for it.

It actually is a short time in terms of it actually doing anything, the phoenix force was originally just Jean Grey then retconned into an ageless cosmic force but the cosmic force just floated around the galaxy performing space feng shui on auto-pilot and has only recently acted as if it had any self awareness. So everything it has done since first appearing on Earth is the only perspective they and even the PF have.

[remydat]

It actually is a short time in terms of it actually doing anything, the phoenix force was originally just Jean Grey then retconned into an ageless cosmic force but the cosmic force just floated around the galaxy performing space feng shui on auto-pilot and has only recently acted as if it had any self awareness. So everything it has done since first appearing on Earth is the only perspective they and even the PF have.

Yes I know it was retconned but that is part of my point. Ignore it is a fictional story for a moment. The PF is 15 billion years old. All the things being revealed about it (self awareness, eating planets on its way to earth, the magical appearance of a red haired host in Kun Lun) are things that are entirely possible because we have seen so little of its life in the comic. A writer could decide tomorrow that the PF has had hundreds of thousands of hosts most of which have destroyed the worlds they were from and that would be perfectly reasonable given we know so little of its history and giving it is as old as the universe.

I suppose we can take the old Bible position that earth is the center of the universe but logically if you have a 15 billion year old cosmic force, it makes no sense to assume it has just been wondering aimlessly through space except for when it comes into contact with red haired humans. There are roughly 10 to the 24th power (ie 10 with 24 zeroes after it) of stars in the universe with probably 10 times that in terms of planets. What is likely is that we only see its encounters with earth because that is the perspective the stories are written from. And we throw in for good measure a few stories from other civilizations (Shi'ar for example) that have interacted with earth.

For example, if the PF took a host and ended up eating that planet there would be no record of that fact because the planet and all its people are gone so who would be around to tell of that planets demise unless someone external to that planet witnessed it?