AvX #2 Preview: They're Trying Really Hard to Make Cyclops Look Crazy

[remydat]

Mention what? You do understand that they realize it was Bishop from seeing the M upon Madrox. You're acting as if there was some massive in-depth discussion between them all.

All the M is evidence of is that he went to Bishop's reality. Bishop could have been dead in that reality for all anyone knew so the M is not indicative of his views on Hope. Again, I am not objecting to you wanting to believe no one was told, I am just objecting to you pretending that is the only logical conclusion to make.

No having a plan for the unknown =/= not having a plan for something known. You're arguing that because he didn't plan for a situation he was completely unaware of, that means he hasn't plan for a situation he does know of.

No I am not. I am arguing I see NO EVIDENCE that he has a plan regarding Wanda being an alternative. Until I see some sort of EVIDENCE, I will not simply assume he does. Again, if you want to have faith that Cyke does so be it. What I am saying is stop passing that faith off as a fact.

So by that argument, Iron Man, Red Hulk, Thor, and Ms Marvel all are considered threats because they have the capacity to destroy the planet, even through they never have. Also, we can't forget about Franklin and his reality warping powers. The Phoenix's nature was never about destroying worlds before, and in fact was used to save worlds more then destroy them. .

Why are we having this debate again. I said many posts ago when you asked a similar question that yes all of those people above are threats. The only difference is all of them have FINITE LIVES so we have seen the entirety of their lives play out in the comics. The PF has a lifespan of billions of years and in the comics we have seen it for only a fraction of that time.

Um, the proof is that the Phoenix never did such a thing outside the DPS. We have actually seen the Phoenix possessed hosts in various different situations without ever becoming such a threat. Ergo, it is in fact predictable. .

Again, I don't know how much clearer I need to be. Let's take an example. FR, let's say he is 10 years old. We have effectively seen in the comics his entire 10 years. I have all the data I need to conclude on whether the potential threat he causes is just potential or real. The PF is say 15 billion years old. We have seen or heard stories about it that account for what maybe 100 years of it's life and that is being generous. You cannot conclude based on the 100 years of it's life you have seen that it must be good because there are 14,999,999,900 years of its life you have not witnessed. Its currently snacking on planets could very will be the norm. You and I don't know because we have LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of its life. You cannot predict what it will do based on the 100 years out of its 15 billlion year life because that 100 years is statistically insignificant. If someone came to visit us now and only looked at recorded history, they would assume humans have been the dominant species of the planet. However, someone with knowledge of the 5 billion year old history of the planet would laugh because they have the perspective to know that for much of the life of the Earth there were other more dominant species.

Shame that it's not as if we have never been told anything about the past of the Phoenix or been told multiple times before now how it likes wiping out worlds...

Besides, we were originally talking about it within a host, so the original argument still stands.

No it doesn't. In the span of what 10-15 marvel years it has had 3 hosts. Fuck, if it takes a host that frequently that is a shitload. Hell, let's say this is just a lucky 10-15 year period and it takes a host once every 150,000 years that would still mean it has had over 100,000 hosts in its lifetime. We have seen or heard about what 5 of them tops. So no you are not in a position to conclude on how it behaves because you don't have enough data.

Show me proof or give me the comic issue where it shows that Scott considered Magik more important then Pixie before that moment. I can prove multiple examples where Scott used Pixie as his personal transportation, over Magik, proving that she's more important to him.

No, it was not better. I pointed out why it wasn't. There was no strategic value in having Pixie accompany them when it put both teleporters at the same risk .

I already told you Pixie says so herself and Anole agrees. If you want to say otherwise then show where Cyke says otherwise. I don't care if he uses Pixie as his personal trans, it is your opinion that makes her more important. The guy who drives the general's jeep is not more important than his top soldiers. Let's say I have only 1 tank in a battle. I know there is another tank down the road but I will need to risk my current tank to transport 5 soldiers there and to bring those 5 soldiers back if it turns out the tank down the road is broken. Then as a general I simply decide whether it is worth risking the only tank I have in order to bring back this other tank. Oh did I mention this other tank is also a sorceress supreme in addition to being good for transport? Again, generals make decisions like this all the time. They risk scarce resources in order to obtain other resources.

Scott would have ordered her to come back beforehand, and she was clearly capable of coming back if she had too. So you're changing your argument? You claim that Scott considered Cannonball team fully sacrificial. If that's true, then he wouldn't really care if they came back or not, now would he? But if he does in fact care and want them to return, then he clearly wasn't thinking of them as less valuable then anyone else. Um, no. The nature of war is to try you best not to undervalue or sacrifice any soldiers. .

I did not claim Scott considered Cannonball's team fully sacrificial. I claimed he considered them less valuable than Colussus and company. Just because some soldiers are less valuable than others doesn't mean a general will be stupid and let them die needlessly. Cyke has scarce resources at his disposal. In a perfect world he would want them all to come back because they are scarce resources. However, the world is not perfect so he certainly knows which of his resources he values more than others and makes decisions accordingly.

That's because there is a negative connotation to the word. And you argument was that when it came to Hope and Magik, he would throw anyone else away to protect them. Hope isn't the king, the mutant race is. .

I said if he had to decide between Hope and someone else he would choose Hope. I do not believe I said throw away. And the word does not have a negative connotation except in your head. When someone says let's make sure someone's sacrifice was not in vain, that is not negative. When someone says they sacrificed their Rook to protect their king, that is not negative. If I sacrifice my life to save my friends, that is not negative. And Hope is the King because she is the most important piece that gurantees the survival of the mutant race according to Cyke. You can't separate the two right now.

Again, how is Hope taking her team off without any adult supervision/protection and being upon the Extinction team that handles the greatest threats not showing he's allowing Hope to be risk as much as anyone else? Neither of those things are thing Hope fought him for. Heck, we know Hope had little problem with having an adult accompanying her team on missions and there's nothing to suggest that had changed. .

Once again, he did not want Hope fighting at all. After a while he accepted it was not something he could prevent so he has put her with the most powerful team he has and he has ensured has supervision to protect her.

You claim he tries not to piss her off over fighting and I pointed out that's not true. He got into it with her over going off to fight, so clearly he's not the whipped dog you seem to think he is. And not having to control Hope isn't the same as not having the ability if wanted. .

The exact words I used was TOTALLY piss off. There is a reason I used an adverb to qualify the verb. I understand he has pissed her off, I said he tries not to TOTALLY piss her off. That is why I used the analogy of a Husband knowing when to argue with ie piss off his wife and when to STFU (ie to prevent TOTALLY PISSING OFF his wife. It is a matter of degree.

Also, presuming someone's a fan just because they argue to correct you...

I was just pointing out how some Cyke fans have argued that Cyke has no control over Hope and others like you have said he does. I called you a fan not because you have a different opinion but because I have seen your posts throughout this forum so I know you are a Cyke fan. Just like I have seen Meehl's posts, Optic Rage and everyone elses. The difference is you are actually debating so I have no problem with you or your having an opinion hence why I continue to debate. The others just come in here to make posts that offer no insight into anything.

[Ebon Phantom]

All the M is evidence of is that he went to Bishop's reality. Bishop could have been dead in that reality for all anyone knew so the M is not indicative of his views on Hope. Again, I am not objecting to you wanting to believe no one was told, I am just objecting to you pretending that is the only logical conclusion to make.

If no mention of Bishop and why he did what he did was made after that event and if no mention of Hope possibly killing a million people is made either for justification or explanation, then how isn't it the "logical conclusion"?

No I am not. I am arguing I see NO EVIDENCE that he has a plan regarding Wanda being an alternative. Until I see some sort of EVIDENCE, I will not simply assume he does. Again, if you want to have faith that Cyke does so be it. What I am saying is stop passing that faith off as a fact.

So Scott allowed Wanda to go off for no reason, despite his feelings towards her and his tenancy to plan?

Why are we having this debate again. I said many posts ago when you asked a similar question that yes all of those people above are threats. The only difference is all of them have FINITE LIVES so we have seen the entirety of their lives play out in the comics. The PF has a lifespan of billions of years and in the comics we have seen it for only a fraction of that time.

Problem being, that the target being questioned isn't the "infinite" Phoenix, but the "finite" Hope. And both Thor and Franklin have been shown having an immeasurable lifespan.

Again, I don't know how much clearer I need to be. Let's take an example. FR, let's say he is 10 years old. We have effectively seen in the comics his entire 10 years. I have all the data I need to conclude on whether the potential threat he causes is just potential or real. The PF is say 15 billion years old. We have seen or heard stories about it that account for what maybe 100 years of it's life and that is being generous. You cannot conclude based on the 100 years of it's life you have seen that it must be good because there are 14,999,999,900 years of its life you have not witnessed. Its currently snacking on planets could very will be the norm. You and I don't know because we have LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of its life. You cannot predict what it will do based on the 100 years out of its 15 billlion year life because that 100 years is statistically insignificant. If someone came to visit us now and only looked at recorded history, they would assume humans have been the dominant species of the planet. However, someone with knowledge of the 5 billion year old history of the planet would laugh because they have the perspective to know that for much of the life of the Earth there were other more dominant species.

The Shi'ar are millions of years old. And the thing about something being the norm, is that it would regularly be shown. Why would it be the only time beforehand that we saw the Phoenix as a threat was when it was driven crazy? Less you're making the claim that it's always crazy, being driven insane wouldn't be the norm for it, and thus out of the ordinary. Um, if someone looked at recorded history, then they would outright know that mankind wasn't the dominate species, since the history of Earth is quite well documented.

No it doesn't. In the span of what 10-15 marvel years it has had 3 hosts. Fuck, if it takes a host that frequently that is a shitload. Hell, let's say this is just a lucky 10-15 year period and it takes a host once every 150,000 years that would still mean it has had over 100,000 hosts in its lifetime. We have seen or heard about what 5 of them tops. So no you are not in a position to conclude on how it behaves because you don't have enough data.

We do have enough data. You don't need to flip a coin a hundred times to understand probability. If that was standard behavior, then it would have been shown happening, even within a small control group.

I already told you Pixie says so herself and Anole agrees. If you want to say otherwise then show where Cyke says otherwise. I don't care if he uses Pixie as his personal trans, it is your opinion that makes her more important. The guy who drives the general's jeep is not more important than his top soldiers. Let's say I have only 1 tank in a battle. I know there is another tank down the road but I will need to risk my current tank to transport 5 soldiers there and to bring those 5 soldiers back if it turns out the tank down the road is broken. Then as a general I simply decide whether it is worth risking the only tank I have in order to bring back this other tank. Oh did I mention this other tank is also a sorceress supreme in addition to being good for transport? Again, generals make decisions like this all the time. They risk scarce resources in order to obtain other resources.

Nation X, Second Coming, Fear Itself, Lovelorn, and others. How is it an opinion? If he depends more on Pixie, while barely using Magik at all in anything, how can she be more important? He barely used Magik, not just for teleporting, but for fighting too. So not once have we seen her treated as a "top soldier" before then. Pixie on the otherhand is someone he has brought into battle with him, someone he was shown actually depending on. That along with the fact that both Pixie and Anole have a known bias against her makes it clear it was just words. There is no other example of Scott putting Magik's well being over that of Pixie or any of the other young mutants. And no, your example doesn't fit. He didn't have to risk Pixie in order to get Magik back. That's the key point here. The mission could have been done without her being put in any danger.

I did not claim Scott considered Cannonball's team fully sacrificial. I claimed he considered them less valuable than Colussus and company. Just because some soldiers are less valuable than others doesn't mean a general will be stupid and let them die needlessly. Cyke has scarce resources at his disposal. In a perfect world he would want them all to come back because they are scarce resources. However, the world is not perfect so he certainly knows which of his resources he values more than others and makes decisions accordingly.

And since we have canonical knowledge that Pixie is valued more the Magik by Scott for teleportation and fighting, her being used disproves that.

I said if he had to decide between Hope and someone else he would choose Hope. I do not believe I said throw away. And the word does not have a negative connotation except in your head. When someone says let's make sure someone's sacrifice was not in vain, that is not negative. When someone says they sacrificed their Rook to protect their king, that is not negative. If I sacrifice my life to save my friends, that is not negative. And Hope is the King because she is the most important piece that gurantees the survival of the mutant race according to Cyke. You can't separate the two right now.

It does have a negative connotation, which is why it's no done at the offset. And I asked, if Hope is the key and Scott is willing to use everyone to protect her, why did he not call in the young X-men to the frontlines in the battle against the Avengers? Why did we not see any fight or die speeches like at the end of Second Coming? Why use only a handful of the mutants at his disposal?

Once again, he did not want Hope fighting at all. After a while he accepted it was not something he could prevent so he has put her with the most powerful team he has and he has ensured has supervision to protect her.

Except that's not true. Again, he had supervisors watching her and her team on missions, yet that is no longer the case. He now allows her to go off without any supervision, something she never rejected.

The exact words I used was TOTALLY piss off. There is a reason I used an adverb to qualify the verb. I understand he has pissed her off, I said he tries not to TOTALLY piss her off. That is why I used the analogy of a Husband knowing when to argue with ie piss off his wife and when to STFU (ie to prevent TOTALLY PISSING OFF his wife. It is a matter of degree.

How more "totally" pissed off could she have been to physically assault him? The only thing above that would be outright attempted murder.

I was just pointing out how some Cyke fans have argued that Cyke has no control over Hope and others like you have said he does. I called you a fan not because you have a different opinion but because I have seen your posts throughout this forum so I know you are a Cyke fan. Just like I have seen Meehl's posts, Optic Rage and everyone elses. The difference is you are actually debating so I have no problem with you or your having an opinion hence why I continue to debate. The others just come in here to make posts that offer no insight into anything.

Choosing not to exert control is still completely different then not having any control.

[wolvie616]

Mods, can we close this thread? We want to keep on current issues, and I'm sure most of us don't appreciate a flame war crowding the top of the thread.

[remydat]

Mods, can we close this thread? We want to keep on current issues, and I'm sure most of us don't appreciate a flame war crowding the top of the thread.

Flame war? We are having a debate. How does Ebon and I discussing things in here impact you when all you have to do is simply ignore this thread? This thread gets a post like once or twice a day and somehow it is crowding the top of the thread? Please. Would you prefer we take or debate to the other AvX threads instead?

[remydat]

If no mention of Bishop and why he did what he did was made after that event and if no mention of Hope possibly killing a million people is made either for justification or explanation, then how isn't it the "logical conclusion"?

When he comes to he screams where's Bishop and then in the next scene, the 6 other people there discuss if Bishop could betray them. So unless you are telling me that those 6 people deduced from Jamie saying where's Bishop that Bishop must be the traitor as opposed to Jamie simply wanting to ask him something, it is obvious that before the next scene occurs that Madrox has told them more than just Where's Bishop off panel. It's a comic, they don't show every single scene. And I never said your conclusion is not logical, I said it is not the only logicial conclusion.

So Scott allowed Wanda to go off for no reason, despite his feelings towards her and his tenancy to plan?

Scott was confronted by the Avengers and ultimately backed down. Why remains to be scene? You can speculate the reason being she factors into his plans for saving mutants but it is just that speculation.

Problem being, that the target being questioned isn't the "infinite" Phoenix, but the "finite" Hope. And both Thor and Franklin have been shown having an immeasurable lifespan.

Hope is being targeted because of the infinite PF, it is the PF they are concerned about. FR currently is 10-14 years old. Any person in the MU has a reasonable basis to conclude on him because they would be alble to get information on that 10-14 year time period. Thor is older but again from his birth to the present, there is likely enough information out there for any person in the MU to conclude on him as well. The PF has existed for far longer and we have not seen much of its life at all.

The Shi'ar are millions of years old. And the thing about something being the norm, is that it would regularly be shown. Why would it be the only time beforehand that we saw the Phoenix as a threat was when it was driven crazy? Less you're making the claim that it's always crazy, being driven insane wouldn't be the norm for it, and thus out of the ordinary. Um, if someone looked at recorded history, then they would outright know that mankind wasn't the dominate species, since the history of Earth is quite well documented.

I am making the claim we don't know. Is it not snacking on planets right now? If a writer said tomorrow that it snacking on planets is how it usually behaves you have no means to dispute that because you have only seen it in the comics for what like 100 years out of the 15 billion years it has been alive. I know of only one host referenced by the Shiar and that is Korvus' ancestor and regardless it doesn't matter because over it's lifespan it probably has had interacted with more than just the Shi'ar and humans. And recorded history is a term used to define when man began writing down history and begins around 4000 BC. So from 4,000 BC to the present, we have been the dominant species. The time before that and the time of the dinosaurs is pre-history.

We do have enough data. You don't need to flip a coin a hundred times to understand probability. If that was standard behavior, then it would have been shown happening, even within a small control group.

This makes no sense. There are only two outcomes when flipping a coinc. There are an infinite possibility of outcomes over 15 billion years and when there are more than two options. And no, standard behavior would not be shown within a small control group when the sample size is so small and when the population is not homogenuous. Statistical or non-statistical sampling which is the only time of sample that allows for appropriate projection of results to the rest of the population requeires a homogenuous population ie the population has to be very similar or identical. The PF and its likely many hosts are not a homogenuous population because those hosts likely have spanned several civilizations and individual people across the galaxy and do not have such binary outcomes such as heads or tails.

Nation X, Second Coming, Fear Itself, Lovelorn, and others. How is it an opinion? If he depends more on Pixie, while barely using Magik at all in anything, how can she be more important? He barely used Magik, not just for teleporting, but for fighting too. So not once have we seen her treated as a "top soldier" before then. Pixie on the otherhand is someone he has brought into battle with him, someone he was shown actually depending on. That along with the fact that both Pixie and Anole have a known bias against her makes it clear it was just words. There is no other example of Scott putting Magik's well being over that of Pixie or any of the other young mutants. And no, your example doesn't fit. He didn't have to risk Pixie in order to get Magik back. That's the key point here. The mission could have been done without her being put in any danger.

Really, who is he using as a teleporter now? How did Magik end up in Limbo in the first place if she was not used in battle? Again, it is your opinion. And the mission could not be done with her being in danger. She was the only one that could take them to Limbo. She was the only one who could bring them back if Magik was dead or could not be found. Once Cyke made the decision that Magik should be rescued he had no choice but to involve Pixie. And it would be absurd for him to send them there and then have Pixie bail on them when he only has 20-30 soldiers to begin with.

And since we have canonical knowledge that Pixie is valued more the Magik by Scott for teleportation and fighting, her being used disproves that.

Again opinion not cannon. I see Magik on the Extinction Team. I see Magik taking on Dr Strange. You are confusing writers story choices for who they show in a particular story as proof.

It does have a negative connotation, which is why it's no done at the offset. And I asked, if Hope is the key and Scott is willing to use everyone to protect her, why did he not call in the young X-men to the frontlines in the battle against the Avengers? Why did we not see any fight or die speeches like at the end of Second Coming? Why use only a handful of the mutants at his disposal?

It is not done at the outset because it would be stupid. Who the fuck sacrifices a pawn for example until it is necessary? And I gave you examples of when it is not negative so explain to me how a soldier sacrificing his life to achieve a mission is negative. There was nothing negative in what Nightcrawler did. It was heroic. The Avengers were not coming to kill Hope well none of them except Wolverine. It was not a life or death battle. Cyke is not an idiot.

Except that's not true. Again, he had supervisors watching her and her team on missions, yet that is no longer the case. He now allows her to go off without any supervision, something she never rejected.

I am not sure your point here. Whether he had supervisors or not is irrelevant. He knows she wants to fight. She has been fighting her entire life. Cyke has simply given up on the notion that she can be sheltered.

How more "totally" pissed off could she have been to physically assault him? The only thing above that would be outright attempted murder.

Choosing not to exert control is still completely different then not having any control.

Is there any other mutant given this much leeway? Again, it is an uneasy situation.

[Ebon Phantom]

When he comes to he screams where's Bishop and then in the next scene, the 6 other people there discuss if Bishop could betray them. So unless you are telling me that those 6 people deduced from Jamie saying where's Bishop that Bishop must be the traitor as opposed to Jamie simply wanting to ask him something, it is obvious that before the next scene occurs that Madrox has told them more than just Where's Bishop off panel. It's a comic, they don't show every single scene. And I never said your conclusion is not logical, I said it is not the only logicial conclusion.

The entire point of him going into the future was to gather said information and clearly Bishop having a connection he never made mention before makes him look pretty guilty without them having to spell it out. And it makes no logical sense for neither Bishop nor the possible murder of millions not to have been mentioned since then, especially when going into a event design to bring back mutantkind, the very thing Bishop mentioned. We're talking about people from three different groups here, two of which greatly dislike Scott and have no reason to protect Hope.

Scott was confronted by the Avengers and ultimately backed down. Why remains to be scene? You can speculate the reason being she factors into his plans for saving mutants but it is just that speculation.

He was confronted by the Avengers before then and didn't back down, so that clearly wasn't the reason.

Hope is being targeted because of the infinite PF, it is the PF they are concerned about. FR currently is 10-14 years old. Any person in the MU has a reasonable basis to conclude on him because they would be alble to get information on that 10-14 year time period. Thor is older but again from his birth to the present, there is likely enough information out there for any person in the MU to conclude on him as well. The PF has existed for far longer and we have not seen much of its life at all.

Nor do we need to in order to in order to understand the majority of their experience has been it being passive. They know quite a bit of it's history, yet the only time it wiped out a world was when it was specifically driven crazy.

I am making the claim we don't know. Is it not snacking on planets right now? If a writer said tomorrow that it snacking on planets is how it usually behaves you have no means to dispute that because you have only seen it in the comics for what like 100 years out of the 15 billion years it has been alive. I know of only one host referenced by the Shiar and that is Korvus' ancestor and regardless it doesn't matter because over it's lifespan it probably has had interacted with more than just the Shi'ar and humans. And recorded history is a term used to define when man began writing down history and begins around 4000 BC. So from 4,000 BC to the present, we have been the dominant species. The time before that and the time of the dinosaurs is pre-history.

If such a thing was eventually said, then fine, it would become canon. But at this point, no such thing has been claimed, so we o with what we previously know, which is that there should be at least one case in "recorded history" of it wiping out a planet on purpose. Because that's the key point about recorded history, that even if something doesn't happen doing that said time, once it's known about, it will still be recorded.

This makes no sense. There are only two outcomes when flipping a coinc. There are an infinite possibility of outcomes over 15 billion years and when there are more than two options. And no, standard behavior would not be shown within a small control group when the sample size is so small and when the population is not homogenuous. Statistical or non-statistical sampling which is the only time of sample that allows for appropriate projection of results to the rest of the population requeires a homogenuous population ie the population has to be very similar or identical. The PF and its likely many hosts are not a homogenuous population because those hosts likely have spanned several civilizations and individual people across the galaxy and do not have such binary outcomes such as heads or tails.

The choices were either destructive or passive. That's pretty much heads or tails. Either the Phoenix regularly wiped out entire worlds over it's existences or it doesn't. There is no in-between. And if it's regularly is destructive, then it's destructive side would have manifested at least once on Earth in a normal way, instead of it being mainly being passive and only one being destructive after being driven insane.

Really, who is he using as a teleporter now? How did Magik end up in Limbo in the first place if she was not used in battle? Again, it is your opinion. And the mission could not be done with her being in danger. She was the only one that could take them to Limbo. She was the only one who could bring them back if Magik was dead or could not be found. Once Cyke made the decision that Magik should be rescued he had no choice but to involve Pixie. And it would be absurd for him to send them there and then have Pixie bail on them when he only has 20-30 soldiers to begin with.

He's using her now because he needs her to handle her brother. That is actually a big plot point. And she was assisting Pixie in battle, so that doesn't disprove anything.

Yes, it could have. There was no need for her to be there in the flesh and put in danger. She could have dropped them off and returned at a prearranged time, like normally done with special force teams, or they simply return when they fount Magik. How is it absurd? Strategically, it made the most sense as if Magik was dead, then he would be risking his only teleporter in a hostile situation. If Pixie died, then not only woud the team have to way to return, but now he would have no teleporters to use at all. On the otherhand, having Pixie return after dropping them off meant that even if Magik was dead and the team suffered loses, Pixie would still be able to save the ones who weren't kill and still be around to act as teleporter for Scott. There was clearly more risk to them all in sending her along as oppose to the value of keeping her back.

Again opinion not cannon. I see Magik on the Extinction Team. I see Magik taking on Dr Strange. You are confusing writers story choices for who they show in a particular story as proof.

Shown in the comics = canon. Magik is one the Extinction Team specifically to control her brother and she took on Strange because that was Scott's plan. You would note that Scott always has her attached to a bomb and when not in use is locked away in a jail cell.

It is not done at the outset because it would be stupid. Who the fuck sacrifices a pawn for example until it is necessary? And I gave you examples of when it is not negative so explain to me how a soldier sacrificing his life to achieve a mission is negative. There was nothing negative in what Nightcrawler did. It was heroic. The Avengers were not coming to kill Hope well none of them except Wolverine. It was not a life or death battle. Cyke is not an idiot.

Not having them fight alongside the rest of the X-men to keep the Avengers from getting their hands on Hope and bring doom to the world/extinction of the species not a life and death battle? And if you reread it, there was plenty of negative feelings towards Nightcrawler having to die.

I am not sure your point here. Whether he had supervisors or not is irrelevant. He knows she wants to fight. She has been fighting her entire life. Cyke has simply given up on the notion that she can be sheltered.

You made the claim that Scott had to allow Hope to fight even though he's "determined to keep her safe" and I pointed out that both of them had no problem with Scott having an adult mutant watch over her while on missions. So obviously the lack of a supervisor currently denotes that he's not being as protective over her as before.

Is there any other mutant given this much leeway? Again, it is an uneasy situation.

Logan has currently attempted to kill Scott several times, Magneto went against his orders and then stood in the way of bring Wanda back, and various characters have personally attacked Hope without any punishment.

[remydat]

The entire point of him going into the future was to gather said information and clearly Bishop having a connection he never made mention before makes him look pretty guilty without them having to spell it out. And it makes no logical sense for neither Bishop nor the possible murder of millions not to have been mentioned since then, especially when going into a event design to bring back mutantkind, the very thing Bishop mentioned. We're talking about people from three different groups here, two of which greatly dislike Scott and have no reason to protect Hope.

This is a hindsight argument. If Bishop told Madrox that he didn't know who the hell Hope was and why his world was the way it was then what would the M have proven? Madrox didn't get the M because Bishop knew about Hope, he got it because he was a mutant. 80 years after the fact, it was entirely possible that Bishop would have no clue as to who Hope was or what she allegedly did. So again, Madrox would have had to relay the story back to them for anyone to conclude on Bishop being a traitor. And of course it makes logical sense, it is a comic in which not everything is shown on panel. Why would it need to be mentioned again when it was already shown on panel? It's wasted space.

He was confronted by the Avengers before then and didn't back down, so that clearly wasn't the reason. .

And so what? Sometimes people are confronted and back down. Sometimes they don't. That proves nothing.

Nor do we need to in order to in order to understand the majority of their experience has been it being passive. They know quite a bit of it's history, yet the only time it wiped out a world was when it was specifically driven crazy .

This is silly. It is eating planets right now. Who the hell realistically says let me ignore the fact it is eating planets right now or that it went DP because hey the other 4 times out of its 15 billion year history I have seen it, it has been nice.

If such a thing was eventually said, then fine, it would become canon. But at this point, no such thing has been claimed, so we o with what we previously know, which is that there should be at least one case in "recorded history" of it wiping out a planet on purpose. Because that's the key point about recorded history, that even if something doesn't happen doing that said time, once it's known about, it will still be recorded. .

This would be like meeting someone 4 times in your life and then saying well he was nice so he couldn't possibly have killed the people the cops claimed he did. As if meeting someone 4 times in their entire life is enough to judge. We have met the PF 4 or 5 times in its 15 billion year life. It went DP once, it is eating planets right now and the other 3 or 4 times it was nice. Sorry it is a risk no one would realistic take to say it us by and large good.

The choices were either destructive or passive. That's pretty much heads or tails. Either the Phoenix regularly wiped out entire worlds over it's existences or it doesn't. There is no in-between. And if it's regularly is destructive, then it's destructive side would have manifested at least once on Earth in a normal way, instead of it being mainly being passive and only one being destructive after being driven insane. .

Even if we assume only 2 outcomes, a coin could land on heads 4 times in a row. Does that mean the other 15 billion times I flip it, it will land on heads? This is effectively what you are saying. Because you have seen the PF land on heads 4 times, that means that the other 15 billion times it must have landed on heads too. That is ridiculous. The sample is too small to infer any conclusion about the overall population. This is a basic concept in mathematics/statistics. It is not even worth debating this further. Click on any of the below articles in the link for scientific analysis. If you want to debate this further then take it up with the people who came up with statistic analysis and probability.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_y...fr=yfp-t-702-s

He's using her now because he needs her to handle her brother. That is actually a big plot point. And she was assisting Pixie in battle, so that doesn't disprove anything. .

Where was her brother when she was fighting Dr. Strange? Again, your are giving an opinion. I see Magik fighting whether her brother is around or not. Do you think Pixie can beat Dr. Strange. She is a teleporter with limited offensive capability when compared to Magik

Yes, it could have. There was no need for her to be there in the flesh and put in danger. She could have dropped them off and returned at a prearranged time, like normally done with special force teams, or they simply return when they fount Magik. How is it absurd? Strategically, it made the most sense as if Magik was dead, then he would be risking his only teleporter in a hostile situation. If Pixie died, then not only woud the team have to way to return, but now he would have no teleporters to use at all. On the otherhand, having Pixie return after dropping them off meant that even if Magik was dead and the team suffered loses, Pixie would still be able to save the ones who weren't kill and still be around to act as teleporter for Scott. There was clearly more risk to them all in sending her along as oppose to the value of keeping her back. .

Return at a pre-arranged time, lol. It is fucking Limbo. Time is not the same there. There is no guarantee that when she returns she will be able to find them or that they will still be the same age. She could return and 100 years have passed in Limbo. Or worse, she returns and then has to search for them in Limbo ALONE. Did they not have to go looking for Magik but you think someone Pixie will be able to just pop in at the exact location they are at. What, you think she can just tell them let's meet up at 5pm at the local drive in? It would be asinine to have Pixie return and wonder about Limbo alone. And please to come back with well Cyke could have sent someone because all that does is risk more people. Look the decision was simply, you are decide to save Magik in which case Pixie has to go and it is safer for everyone for her to remain with the team or you decide fuck it and leave Magik in Limbo.

Shown in the comics = canon. Magik is one the Extinction Team specifically to control her brother and she took on Strange because that was Scott's plan. You would note that Scott always has her attached to a bomb and when not in use is locked away in a jail cell. .

You are confusing Scot not trusting her with her strategic value. Magik is a better offensive weapon than Pixie plus she is a teleporter. That simply has more strategic value that Pixie who is a teleporter but not as gifter a sorceress.

Not having them fight alongside the rest of the X-men to keep the Avengers from getting their hands on Hope and bring doom to the world/extinction of the species not a life and death battle? And if you reread it, there was plenty of negative feelings towards Nightcrawler having to die.

No it wasn't. The only Avenger who wanted Hope dead was Wolverine. As for Nightcrawler, who had negative feelings for his sacrifice. They were negative feelings that he died not that he was willing to sacrifice his life for someone elses.

You made the claim that Scott had to allow Hope to fight even though he's "determined to keep her safe" and I pointed out that both of them had no problem with Scott having an adult mutant watch over her while on missions. So obviously the lack of a supervisor currently denotes that he's not being as protective over her as before. .

Whether he is being more protective or not is irrelevant. I already said he has given up trying to keep her from fighting and she is on the Extinction Team so why would she still need a supervisor?

Logan has currently attempted to kill Scott several times, Magneto went against his orders and then stood in the way of bring Wanda back, and various characters have personally attacked Hope without any punishment.

Logan is not in the clique anymore. And Mags his is right hand man and head of his wetworks squad apparently. Did I claim others were not given leeway. I just said they are not given as much as Hope. Cyke is not stupid. This is like running a sports team. You have the superstars allowed to break the rules and then you have the scrubs who if they do they get fined. Hope is the Super Star. Mags is up there too.

[fortyseven]

Gosh, I could cut the sexual tension in here with a knife.

[KraziJoe]

I'm lost...Too much to read...

[Pixie_Solanas]

brb, i'm going to get some hand lotion.

[darknessatnoon]

Someone sure looks crazy.

[otipep_90]

Wow, I wanted to check this thread out and mention how crazy Cap. America seemed in last week's issues but this is too much multi-quoting for me...

[Home made ectoplasm]

Wow, I wanted to check this thread out and mention how crazy Cap. America seemed in last week's issues but this is too much multi-quoting for me...

Well there is also an AvsX 2 thread, this is just the AvsX 2 preview thread.

[BigDtown]

Fellas, at some point you just gotta agree to disagree.

[xgeek52]

jezz...

*reaches for aspirin*