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  1. #391
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Yeah, she has the ability to mindcontrol. So did Kenji, and Emma, and the Cuckos, and Xavier. And all have used that ability against the X-men at some point. Short of everyone wearing Magneto helmets all the time, you gotta take that risk.
    The difference being she seems to have a weird mind control over those she activates in particular. It's been hinted at being creepier than just regular mind control.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Scott has fought for greater causes then Xavier's dream. Like the protecting the Earth (or with the Phoenix for example, the universe ) as whole. That always came first. He's capable of understanding that mutantsurvival alone ain't enough.
    Protecting the Earth/Universe was part and parcel to Xavier's dream of peaceful co-existence. They were not separate goals because Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence required the X-men act as protectors of the earth/universe. There are definite scenarios here where his dream (saving mutants via Hope) may conflict with saving lives if doing so requires killing Hope. That is why this scenario is different.

  2. #392
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Cyke and the other X-men have a choice not to fight and to give up Hope. They appear to be just as willing to take up arms in defense of their ideals as Wolvy is in defense of his. Hope is a potential threat to the entire planet. She is also Cyke's messiah. There are legitimate concerns that if he had to choose between saving human lives or killing his messiah and what he believes to be his only hope to save his race, that Cyke would choose to save his race. That is why they are there and Cyke has given them no reason not to be concerned given his rhetoric. To be fair, if I was in Cyke's position I would probably refuse them as well which is why neither side is betraying the other. They are following their ideals that all involved knew up front. Everyone knows how gung ho recent Cyke has been and Wolvy is on record as telling Hope he would put her down if she was a threat. If other mutants on either side want to involve themselves in this conflict then they do so at their own risk.
    He's not just acting in defense of his belief in Hope. Do not forget he was recently informed by Cable about what would happen if Hope wasn't there to save them. The entire world would become ash. So it's basically his faith in Hope and knowledge of the future verses their assumption that Hope is dangerous.

  3. #393
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Again, Xavier's Dream always trumpted JG or any of his loved ones. That was Cyke's personality. The boyscout who would sacrifice everything to fulfill the dream. Over the years he has now become hardened and his dream now is the preservation of his species. Hope is the tool to achieve that. It remains to be seen whether he can throw that dream away given it has consumed him the past few years. He was willing to sacrifice Jean or other loved ones when his dream was Xavier's dream so why would he not be able to sacrifice nameless humans when his dream is now to preserve his species. I hope he can if need be but his whole direction the past few years has been designed to call that into question.
    I suggest you read X-men: First to Last. When given the chance to have humans removed so mutants would have a clear shot at the world, Scott adamantly refused and fought to protect them. So Scott wouldn't simply sacrifice them just for mutantkind. Even in the current situation, he's trying to protect them unintentionally because he knows that if Hope isn't around, the whole world will die.

  4. #394
    Destroying everything Relique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    He's not just acting in defense of his belief in Hope. Do not forget he was recently informed by Cable about what would happen if Hope wasn't there to save them. The entire world would become ash. So it's basically his faith in Hope and knowledge of the future verses their assumption that Hope is dangerous.
    The problem with time travel is that for all we know, Cable could have traveled to a future that was literally seconds after Bishop nuked the US in his quest to kill hope or in an alternate reality where Jean Grey nuked the earth after going Pheonix. The only way to be certain where he was in the time stream would be for Cable check if the future set in stone by time jumping back and forth until he zeroed in on the moment that "Hope died" or "Hope did not return" and then fast forwarded himself until he saw the PHeonix razing the planet*. Problem is he didn't do that and that all the technology he obtained from the future wasn't created in this time stream YET thus creating a paradox that could in fact "turn the world to ash". He only took Blaquesmyth's word and called it a day because he was dying.


    * Of course this is discounting the OTHER future where Genesis goes homicidal and destroys JGSHL when he's in his 20s because he has premature balding.
    Last edited by Relique; 04-15-2012 at 03:44 PM.

  5. #395
    Veteran Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    I suggest you read X-men: First to Last. When given the chance to have humans removed so mutants would have a clear shot at the world, Scott adamantly refused and fought to protect them. So Scott wouldn't simply sacrifice them just for mutantkind. Even in the current situation, he's trying to protect them unintentionally because he knows that if Hope isn't around, the whole world will die.
    I dont think he has bc Scott was willing to let himself die in that story to protect all humanity

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat
    was willing to sacrifice Jean or other loved ones when his dream was Xavier's dream so why would he not be able to sacrifice nameless humans when his dream is now to preserve his species.
    Not true

    Last edited by Havok83; 04-15-2012 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #396
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    He's not just acting in defense of his belief in Hope. Do not forget he was recently informed by Cable about what would happen if Hope wasn't there to save them. The entire world would become ash. So it's basically his faith in Hope and knowledge of the future verses their assumption that Hope is dangerous.
    It still boils down to his belief in Hope. Yes, Cable (her Dad basically) said she was necessary. Bishop as a 10 year old kid said she fucked up a lot of shit. Whose version is correct? Maybe they both are but just from alternate realities or maybe they both are misinformed and she does neither. Point is, it fundamentally boils down to whether Cyke believes in Hope's capacity for good or her capacity for evil.

  7. #397
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebon Phantom View Post
    I suggest you read X-men: First to Last. When given the chance to have humans removed so mutants would have a clear shot at the world, Scott adamantly refused and fought to protect them. So Scott wouldn't simply sacrifice them just for mutantkind. Even in the current situation, he's trying to protect them unintentionally because he knows that if Hope isn't around, the whole world will die.
    No one is suggesting that Scott would ever want a world without humans. The issue here is if he has to kill Hope in order to protect humanity, could he do it and risk mutants going extinct. To pretend that is a slam dunk yes is naive. Further, this has nothing to do with whether I believe he would do it. This has to do with there is no reason for he Avengers or Wolvy to take that risk. We exist outside the comic universe so we are free to consider all the facts but from their perspective why should they believe he could kill his messiah? Again, that is the reason why most places in the world have rules to prevent people from having to make decisions when they have a conflict of interest.

    Your point about him unintentionally protecting humans actually hurts your argument. Again, if Cyke believes that the world turns to ash without Hope then would he let the PF controlled Hope kill people in the present because of something his dying son who happens to be Hope's Dad said. I mean 1,000,000 lives today pale in comparison to the whole world turning to ash does it not?

    Again, you guys are simply ignoring the very real issue here that it is a conflict of interest. The Avengers have no reason to trust Cyke to make the decision when his information is from the person who is basically Hope's Dad and his son and when that same person just tried to kill them. To top it all off you are now telling me that Cyke believes Hope has to live in order for 7 billion people not to die which makes him even more likely to not take a kill shot if it only means a million dead. To pretend the Avengers have no reason to be concerned is silly.
    Last edited by remydat; 04-15-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  8. #398
    Veteran Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No one is suggesting that Scott would ever want a world without humans. The issue here is if he has to kill Hope in order to protect humanity, could he do it and risk mutants going extinct. To pretend that is a slam dunk yes is naive. Further, this has nothing to do with whether I believe he would do it. This has to do with there is no reason for he Avengers or Wolvy to take that risk. We exist outside the comic universe so we are free to consider all the facts.

    Your point about him unintentionally protecting actually hurts your argument. Again, if Cyke believes that the world turns to ash without Hope then would he let the PF controlled Hope kill people in the present because of something his dying son who happens to be Hope's Dad said.

    Again, you guys are simply ignoring the very real issue here that it is a conflict of interest.
    So they should kill Hope over something she might do? Doesnt she get a chance to live her life and make her own decisions? There's nothing to say she will 100% snap and they shouldnt take her out bc she has the potential do do damage. If thats the case then why not take Magneto down? He's put the planet at jeopardy numerous times in the past and intentionally. Who's to say he wont do it again? Why not kill off Scarlet Witch, especially after all the casualties she caused since Dissassembled. What if she snaps again and tries to take out the planet? Why not kill Rachel? The PF has an affinity for her as well; it could use her to destroy the Earth. Its possessed Emma; so go get her. It likes omega telepaths, and there's Kid Omega who's psychotic enough to do some major damage with that power. This could go on and on. The Avengers should just apprehend every telepath and definetly anyone linked to the Grey/Summer family. Maybe they can go recruit the Sh'iar Death Commandos to help em out with that one

  9. #399
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I dont think he has bc Scott was willing to let himself die in that story to protect all humanity


    Not true

    See above. Why wouldn't Scott be willing to let a million humans die today to save 7 billion of them in the future? If I accept Ebon's logic then there is no way in hell the Avengers should trust Cyke to take a kill shot when Cyke believes Hope must live in order for THE WHOLE WORLD NOT TO DIE.

  10. #400
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    So they should kill Hope over something she might do? Doesnt she get a chance to live her life and make her own decisions? There's nothing to say she will 100% snap and they shouldnt take her out bc she has the potential do do damage. If thats the case then why not take Magneto down? He's put the planet at jeopardy numerous times in the past and intentionally. Who's to say he wont do it again? Why not kill off Scarlet Witch, especially after all the casualties she caused since Dissassembled. What if she snaps again and tries to take out the planet? Why not kill Rachel? The PF has an affinity for her as well; it could use her to destroy the Earth. Its possessed Emma; so go get her. It likes omega telepaths, and there's Kid Omega who's psychotic enough to do some major damage with that power. This could go on and on. The Avengers should just apprehend every telepath and definetly anyone linked to the Grey/Summer family. Maybe they can go recruit the Sh'iar Death Commandos to help em out with that one
    Where do you see me saying they should take her out? The scenarios I am discussing are scenarios in which Hope is possessed by the PF and is about to destroy some shit. If the Avengers want to kill her pre-emptively then I do not support that at all. What I am saying is they have every right to be concerned that Cyke is in no position to take her out if it comes to that because he thinks she is the messiah and must live in order for mutants and apparently the whole world to survive.

  11. #401
    Seasoned OG xgeek52's Avatar
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    *reaches for aspirin*
    XPOTM: APRIL 2012

    be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth...

    i'm lost...i've gone to look for myself...if i should return before i get back -- please ask me to wait...

  12. #402
    Elder Member CMBMOOL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I dont think he has bc Scott was willing to let himself die in that story to protect all humanity


    Not true

    Note: That was written by Chris Yost, one of the BETTER X-MEN/MARVEL WRITERS WHO GET THE CHARACTER MOTIVES AND HISTORIES CORRECT, UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE I CANNOT MENTION.

  13. #403
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relique View Post
    The problem with time travel is that for all we know, Cable could have traveled to a future that was literally seconds after Bishop nuked the US in his quest to kill hope or in an alternate reality where Jean Grey nuked the earth after going Pheonix. The only way to be certain where he was in the time stream would be for Cable check if the future set in stone by time jumping back and forth until he zeroed in on the moment that "Hope died" or "Hope did not return" and then fast forwarded himself until he saw the PHeonix razing the planet*. Problem is he didn't do that and that all the technology he obtained from the future wasn't created in this time stream YET thus creating a paradox that could in fact "turn the world to ash". He only took Blaquesmyth's word and called it a day because he was dying.


    * Of course this is discounting the OTHER future where Genesis goes homicidal and destroys JGSHL when he's in his 20s because he has premature balding.
    Isn't Cable limited to where/when he time travels? I think I heard he was limited to a certain timeline, but I don't recall where, so I could be completely mistaken. Regardless of Cable's questionable detective skills, the point is that Scott probably doesn't know that Cable's information is limited nor has any reasons to doubt that it's correct.

  14. #404
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    It still boils down to his belief in Hope. Yes, Cable (her Dad basically) said she was necessary. Bishop as a 10 year old kid said she fucked up a lot of shit. Whose version is correct? Maybe they both are but just from alternate realities or maybe they both are misinformed and she does neither. Point is, it fundamentally boils down to whether Cyke believes in Hope's capacity for good or her capacity for evil.
    Not just his belief in Hope, but the known history of the Phoenix too. There's nothing suggesting that Hope is the threat the Avengers believe she is or that she's any sort of danger when she's been using the Phoenix's power nearly her whole life.

  15. #405
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No one is suggesting that Scott would ever want a world without humans. The issue here is if he has to kill Hope in order to protect humanity, could he do it and risk mutants going extinct. To pretend that is a slam dunk yes is naive. Further, this has nothing to do with whether I believe he would do it. This has to do with there is no reason for he Avengers or Wolvy to take that risk. We exist outside the comic universe so we are free to consider all the facts but from their perspective why should they believe he could kill his messiah? Again, that is the reason why most places in the world have rules to prevent people from having to make decisions when they have a conflict of interest.

    Your point about him unintentionally protecting humans actually hurts your argument. Again, if Cyke believes that the world turns to ash without Hope then would he let the PF controlled Hope kill people in the present because of something his dying son who happens to be Hope's Dad said. I mean 1,000,000 lives today pale in comparison to the whole world turning to ash does it not?

    Again, you guys are simply ignoring the very real issue here that it is a conflict of interest. The Avengers have no reason to trust Cyke to make the decision when his information is from the person who is basically Hope's Dad and his son and when that same person just tried to kill them. To top it all off you are now telling me that Cyke believes Hope has to live in order for 7 billion people not to die which makes him even more likely to not take a kill shot if it only means a million dead. To pretend the Avengers have no reason to be concerned is silly.
    Scott wouldn't kill Hope because she doesn't pose any threat and he knows that. If she eventually became a threat, he knows there are others among his group that would eliminate her. Not once has Scott discounted those people or proclaimed he wouldn't let them hurt her. The most he has claim is the idea of making sure Hope wouldn't become a threat by having all the X-men help train her. The X-men given history shows that training to use the Phoenix is fully possible and if the Phoenix is a possible threat, then it's better to have it in a host that can actually be controlled and dealt with if needed. So there's nothing like blind faith controlling Scott's actions that would simply allow him to needlessly sacrifice anyone.

    But the current situation is a whole different story. The Avengers aren't coming to deal with a crazy or out of control Hope. They're attacking a Hope that hasn't done a thing yet. They're attacking without any proof that she's a threat or any sort of danger. Heck, they're attacking her over something that'll already being done by the Phoenix without her. There's no logic to their actions, seeing as if the Phoenix truly wishes to wipe out Earth, it can clearly do so without possessing Hope. The fact that the Avengers are seemingly to stupid to realize the error in their actions is their own fault. And given the past relationship they had with him, they should be more willing to trust. Just recently, was it not Scott and Hope who sided with them when Cable was gonna kill them? They were fully willing to confront someone they both cared deeply about and attempt to stop him, as oppose to picking up a gun and helping out. So obviously relationships aren't so important to Scott that he would stop being an hero. Had the Avengers simply attempted to work with the X-men on making sure Hope didn't become a thread, instead of making demands about them handing her over, they wouldn't have to worry about anything. Heck, given that Scott still feels on good terms with Logan's side, they could have easily had one of his side act as a mole to keep an eye on her. In fact, one would presume they would have just asked Psylocke seeing as she's already on the inside.

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