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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think sexist men, were they reading, might like the idea that the Amazons are revealed as man-hating savages who use sex to trick men and then murder them.

    From a meta-textual point of view it draws from the worst portrayal of militant feminism. As such, it's less confronting for male readers than most previous versions.
    Well, admittedly, the likes and dislikes of sexist men are going to be mysterious to two such highly evolved, sensitive men as ourselves.

    Still, while you're right that sexist men might see the current Amazons as "typical man-hating feminists," I don't think that they would like this very much. They'd probably say "WHAT? Wonder Woman is from a family of typical man-hating feminists now? Do the feminazis have to ruin everything?"

    I think that if some men feel threatened by powerful women, then, if they have to read about powerful women, they'd probably prefer to read about powerful women who are restrained by a moral code and by general niceness and sweetness, not powerful women who might like to castrate them. The latter are probably more threatening.

    (ETA--Just to prevent any misunderstanding, I should state the obvious: even if I'm right that sexists wouldn't like the portrayal of Wonder Woman's mother and sisters, obviously they aren't the only ones who don't like it! Obviously the criticisms that have been raised on this forum are not motivated by sexism.)

    Also, sexist men might uncomfortably see themselves reflected, even in the first issue, by Apollo, who uses women without regard for their lives, and by Zeus, who, even in his absence, represents everything that's wrong with patriarchy, with all the perverse plans of which the oracles speak And then later, when Wonder Woman makes fools of the brothers who think they can divide the world and leave the scraps to everyone else (aka, the women) and when she refuses to be in a relationship without trust with a guy who wants to treat her like property--well, that can't be something sexists want to read, can it?

    But mostly, sexist men would probably look at Chaing's art and say "Where did Wonder Woman's boobs go? We like looking at boobs."
    Last edited by slvn; 12-12-2012 at 08:00 AM.

  2. #227
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Well, admittedly, the likes and dislikes of sexist men are going to be mysterious to two such highly evolved, sensitive men as ourselves.

    Still, while you're right that sexist men might see the current Amazons as "typical man-hating feminists," I don't think that they would like this very much. They'd probably say "WHAT? Wonder Woman is from a family of typical man-hating feminists now? Do the feminazis have to ruin everything?"

    I think that if some men feel threatened by powerful women, then, if they have to read about powerful women, they'd probably prefer to read about powerful women who are restrained by a moral code and by general niceness and sweetness, not powerful women who might like to castrate them. The latter are probably more threatening.

    (ETA--Just to prevent any misunderstanding, I should state the obvious: even if I'm right that sexists wouldn't like the portrayal of Wonder Woman's mother and sisters, obviously they aren't the only ones who don't like it! Obviously the criticisms that have been raised on this forum are not motivated by sexism.)

    Also, sexist men might uncomfortably see themselves reflected, even in the first issue, by Apollo, who uses women without regard for their lives, and by Zeus, who, even in his absence, represents everything that's wrong with patriarchy, with all the perverse plans of which the oracles speak And then later, when Wonder Woman makes fools of the brothers who think they can divide the world and leave the scraps to everyone else (aka, the women) and when she refuses to be in a relationship without trust with a guy who wants to treat her like property--well, that can't be something sexists want to read, can it?

    But mostly, sexist men would probably look at Chaing's art and say "Where did Wonder Woman's boobs go? We like looking at boobs."
    My feeling is that there are some who would say the Amazons are finally shown as true feminists.

    As to the boobs thing, I stopped worries about admitting to it the day Gail Simone and Nicola Scott got on Facebook and started talking about how awesome Nightwing's butt was.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    My feeling is that there are some who would say the Amazons are finally shown as true feminists.
    Maybe. And are the people who would say so eager for stories in which the heroine is linked by family ties to those awful "true feminists"? They might, granted, like to see the "true feminists" get there comeuppance--but from a fellow women, for reasons that have nothing to do with man-hating? And only to have their last survivor demonstrate that true feminism has nothing to do with the stereotypes they imagine?

    As to the boobs thing, I stopped worries about admitting to it the day Gail Simone and Nicola Scott got on Facebook and started talking about how awesome Nightwing's butt was.
    No reason to feel guilty. But, again, if they were making a special attempt to pander to a stretypical male audience, cheesecake would probably have been a better way to go than having the heroine's family threaten men with castration.

  4. #229
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Okay, so the plan is that you are going to find a group of feminists and then explain to them that the transformation of the Wonder Woman Amazons into rampaging bitch monsters is good for the cause of women's equality.

    Meanwhile, I will be waiting in the car with the engine running.
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  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Okay, so the plan is that you are going to find a group of feminists and then explain to them that the transformation of the Wonder Woman Amazons into rampaging bitch monsters is good for the cause of women's equality.
    While I wouldn't use the phrase "rampaging bitch monsters" (unless maybe if I was meeting with self-proclaimed BITCH feminists--see http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/bitch.htm ), I'd have no problem talking about this with a group of feminists. I wouldn't argue, though, that Wonder Woman volume 4, issue 7 does a lot of good for the cause of women's equality. I'd just say it doesn't do any harm. And, more to the point of our conversation, Id say (if they asked) that it's probably not a way of pandering to stereotypical guys, because stereotypical guys aren't interested in reading about women who make men helpless. Especially when those women aren't portrayed as supervillains for a male hero to defeat, but as the family whom the female hero is mourning.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    While I wouldn't use the phrase "rampaging bitch monsters" (unless maybe if I was meeting with self-proclaimed BITCH feminists--see http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/bitch.htm ), I'd have no problem talking about this with a group of feminists. I wouldn't argue, though, that Wonder Woman volume 4, issue 7 does a lot of good for the cause of women's equality. I'd just say it doesn't do any harm. And, more to the point of our conversation, Id say (if they asked) that it's probably not a way of pandering to stereotypical guys, because stereotypical guys aren't interested in reading about women who make men helpless. Especially when those women aren't portrayed as supervillains for a male hero to defeat, but as the family whom the female hero is mourning.
    I think you'd be wrong in how some men see the Azzarellozons. The idea of women using sex to manipulate and ultimately destory men is wonderful mysoginist propanganda. "See, they never wanted equality, just revenge."

    It might be interesting to start a thread about how female readers find the modern Amazons.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think you'd be wrong in how some men see the Azzarellozons. The idea of women using sex to manipulate and ultimately destory men is wonderful mysoginist propanganda. "See, they never wanted equality, just revenge."
    That can indeed be wonderful misogynist propaganda. So, do you think Azz was hoping misogynists would hear about Wonder Woman 7, start buying the comic, and not be bothered by the fact that we don't see women doing this again or getting punished specifically for this manipulation and destruction, or by the unflattering portrait in the person of Hades of a pathetically insecure misogynist, or by the clear truth that in #10 the comic's feminist icon emphatically is out for equality (and trust, regardless of gender) and NOT for revenge? I doubt that this would be a clever marketing strategy, or that Azz had anything of the kind in mind. But if Azz really was doing a bait and switch by luring misogynistically-inclined men via a familiar stereotype and then reflecting back at them the real ugliness of misogyny and showing them the beauty of a true feminist--then, good for him. It would be a smarter form of feminist (or at least anti-misogynistic) rhetoric than having Wonder Woman give earnest and confrontational feminist speeches that would never be read by the men who need to be confronted.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 06:14 AM.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    That can indeed be wonderful misogynist propaganda. So, do you think Azz was hoping misogynists would hear about Wonder Woman 7, start buying the comic, and not be bothered by the fact that we don't see women doing this again or getting punished specifically for this manipulation and destruction, or by the unflattering portrait in the person of Hades of a pathetically insecure misogynist, or by the clear truth that in #10 the comic's feminist icon emphatically is out for equality (and trust, regardless of gender) and NOT for revenge? I doubt that this would be a clever marketing strategy, or that Azz had anything of the kind in mind. But if Azz really was doing a bait and switch by luring misogynistically-inclined men via a familiar stereotype and then reflecting back at them the real ugliness of misogyny and showing them the beauty of a true feminist--then, good for him. It would be a smarter form of feminist (or at least anti-misogynistic) rhetoric than having Wonder Woman give earnest and confrontational feminist speeches that would never be read by the men who need to be confronted.
    I dont think men of that inclination in a hardcore way will realistically be reading WW anyway, but I think there is a real possibility that some male readers are now more comfortable with the idea that the Amazons just plain hate men. As Azzarello himself says, its easy to understand. They live apart because they hate men and will kill them if they come near them. On the other hand, Wonder Woman now goes out with Superman, so clearly she has been cured.

    One thing that annoys me with this story so far is that the bad stuff is all on the Amazons. They hate men just because they do, and it has driven them to irrational acts of murder against innocent people. If there is more to it, after over a year we dont know what it is.

    Clearly Azz thought making Diana Zeus' daughter would boost sales because now people can "get her." He seems to be right so far. He didnt come out and say that man-hating Amazons would help sales but clearly he didnt think they would hurt them.
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  9. #234
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Speaking as a woman and a feminist, I find the nuAmazons repulsive. With the exception of their loyalty to their queen, they have shown nothing to me to make them admirable or likable. All we've been shown is that they tease little girls and try to kill them when they should be just practicing combat, murder men after seducing them, would kill the infant males if they weren't given the option to trade them for weapons, encourage their children to steal the children of intelligent creatures on the island, and are backwards/primitive in their technology without replacing that tech with magic. Not to mention their queen has an affair with the husband of one of their patrons.

    I could maybe deal with all the regression and lack of any real redeemable characteristics if we were given more positive things to balance it out. It's one thing to say you want to 'dirty up' the pristine Amazons, but all Azzarello has done, imo, is drag them through the mud without showing us a better side.

    And as a woman who grew up with the Amazons and Wonder Woman as role models, it does bother me a bit as does the new origin (powers come from a man and not from women)

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    One thing that annoys me with this story so far is that the bad stuff is all on the Amazons.... [
    Um...here's some "bad stuff" that is not "on the Amazons":

    Issue #1: The "sun of a king" and god of truth and prophecy casually uses and destroys the unsuspecting women he has chosen as his oracles, after they have let us know that the patriarch of all patriarchs has a monstrously perverse plan that involves, among other things, having one of his kids kills another. Nice Dad.

    Issues #2-4: We see how being the queen of a philandering king in a patriarchy has reduced the goddess of women to being petty, vengeful and unable to control herself. In a patriarchy, the word queen is "burdened with expectations," as Strife says.

    Issue #6: We hear how in primordial times three brothers divided the world between them, leaving only the scraps to their sisters--basically, this was the original sin of the gender wars. One of the brothers brags that he will reduce the Queen to her knees, as the King did.

    Issues 6-10: One of the patriarchal lords kidnaps a young women in order to force his family members to provide him with a queen. He then tries to coerce his niece into loving him, tests her love with a noose, and tries to perpetually digest her. We also see that he is keeping is ex-wife prisoner for all eternity. He is the image of a type of misogynist who tries to possess and overpower women to prop up his own fragile sense of masculinity and worth.

    Issues 11-12: A prince tries to rise to the top of the patriarchy by trading the lives of his unborn sibling and that sibling's mother. He then casually discards the Queen with whom he had bargained for the throne.

    Issue 14: We learn that 7000 years ago the King, in the tradition of his patriarchal family, tries to kill his first-born son, ignoring the pleas of the Queen, to prevent that son from becoming the next patriarch.

    We don't know exactly what made the Amazons believe that men were at war with women (though, if we look at history, it's not hard to see how they might have drawn that conclusion). But we know that they live in a nastily patriarchal world with a nastily patriarchal pantheon. If even Hera suffered from the nastiness of patriarchy 7000 years ago, it seems pretty likely that Amazons if they lived in Greek antiquity, suffered from that nastiness as other women did.

    Clearly Azz thought making Diana Zeus' daughter would boost sales because now people can "get her." He seems to be right so far. He didnt come out and say that man-hating Amazons would help sales but clearly he didnt think they would hurt them.
    As Azzarello has observed, most feminists have fathers too--and, I would add, many women can probably relate to being bullied or manipulated by the men in their families. I think he knew that the revelations of #7 would be risky--he tweeted before it came out that the sh-t would hit the fan with some of the long-time readers--but he apparently thought it was important to a good story that he wanted to tell. And the right way for a writer to sell comics is to tell a good story.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Um...here's some "bad stuff" that is not "on the Amazons":
    I was imprecise. Yes, all that happened but it didnt happen to the Amazons. There is no context for us to judge why they would commit heinous acts of murder other than they dont approve of penises.
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  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I was imprecise. Yes, all that happened but it didnt happen to the Amazons. There is no context for us to judge why they would commit heinous acts of murder other than they dont approve of penises.
    You weren't imprecise; I acknowledged that we don't know their personal grievances yet. Of course we don't; frankly, if we knew that they had some understandable reason, the situation might not be quite as horrific, and it's supposed to be horrific. It's a horror story. And frankly, if we knew all their reasons, some people wouldn't be as mad, and if you weren't as mad, there wouldn't be as much buzz. But the buzz over the Amazons' past has been generated now, and even horror stories can get less horrific as they reach resolution. We've now seen hints that Wonder Woman is going to work n getting the Amazons back. When she does, we may hear their side of the story. But we know form mythological and cultural and historical context, and from the incidents I mentioned above, that they live in a world that is patriarchal from the gods on down, and they are very likely to have plenty of reasons to consider that there has been a long war on women.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-16-2012 at 02:43 PM.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Speaking as a woman and a feminist, I find the nuAmazons repulsive. With the exception of their loyalty to their queen, they have shown nothing to me to make them admirable or likable. All we've been shown is that they tease little girls and try to kill them when they should be just practicing combat, murder men after seducing them, would kill the infant males if they weren't given the option to trade them for weapons, encourage their children to steal the children of intelligent creatures on the island, and are backwards/primitive in their technology without replacing that tech with magic. Not to mention their queen has an affair with the husband of one of their patrons.

    I could maybe deal with all the regression and lack of any real redeemable characteristics if we were given more positive things to balance it out. It's one thing to say you want to 'dirty up' the pristine Amazons, but all Azzarello has done, imo, is drag them through the mud without showing us a better side.

    And as a woman who grew up with the Amazons and Wonder Woman as role models, it does bother me a bit as does the new origin (powers come from a man and not from women)
    Speaking as just a fan...a story is a good story and issue #7 did not phase me...in fact I was hoping we'd have some exploration of that etc BUT I am getting tired now of these Gods taking over WW's one book and it totally not feeling like a super hero book at all. Azz is dragging and dragging and only adding Godly characters, many of whom I am having little empathy for. The core group we started with were great and I thought we'd try and stick to that and allow WWto grow in other direction and seeing her classic rogues gallery updated etc even while her trying to solve the Zeus mystery.

  14. #239
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    I wonder if December sales got an Orion bump. The comic's Diamond index was 27.47, up slightly from 26.53 in November. So, depending on how Batman sales held up, maybe there was a slight increase, or at least only a small decrease in Wonder Woman sales.

    http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/...ticleID=130148

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I wonder if December sales got an Orion bump. The comic's Diamond index was 27.47, up slightly from 26.53 in November. So, depending on how Batman sales held up, maybe there was a slight increase, or at least only a small decrease in Wonder Woman sales.

    http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/...ticleID=130148
    Nope, no real Orion bump, it seems. But not much of a decrease. Wonder Woman 15 sold 41,641, compared to 42,384 for #14. So only a three-digit loss: 743.
    Last edited by slvn; 01-14-2013 at 01:59 PM.

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