Secret Avengers #25 *Spoilers*

[Harbinger of Apocalypse]

Why does Hawkeye even think that was Janet Van Dyne? All the Descendants are just Cyborgs or Adaptoids or LMD's. That little melodrama between Jan and Clint was illogical, unless it was playing into Clints emotional investment in Janets likeness, (like George Costanza with his mothers doll), and guilt associated with killing the Wasp cyborg with a knife. If that was the case, then we're seeing Clint's mental sickness stemming from his 2 deaths at the hand of the Scarlet Witch. Clint wanted to find Wanda to get revenge and had sex with her instead; he wants the SA to not tell anyone about this missions fallout, (Torches destruction); he attacked Norman Osborn; and he is now willing to kill. (As well as the little mistake he made about the Cyborg being the real Janet).

Well, Deathlokks and apparently the Deathlokk Legion are always cyborgs formed from the dead bodies of a Human being. Its always the case and the AI is in control. So that might be the genuine Janet and Ms America... unless they are from some parallel universe or perhaps cloned...

I have to say, from what we have been given here, there doesn't appear to be any difference between these descendants and Ellis' robot rebellion from the previous arc. Why do two Robot insurrections practically one after the other? Ellis' robot rebellion was neutralized pretty comprehensively. Maybe Remender wanted to show there was a robot rebellion that wasn't completely neutralized?

There have been plenty of robot insurrections I think. Some I didn't know about even such as Alkhema creating some bio-synthezoids that ended up recreating Ultron. But Remender seems to be going I think on a specific path namely the whole point of "is an AI a living being?" He has indicated that the Descendants have been in existence since World War II really and been breeding, making more of their kind. So, he seems to want to make a definitive species of them that are not ordinary robots and have a developed civilization. Thus, bringing the question of "is it genocide if you exterminate machines?" type of thing. At least, thats how I percieve it being different from other robot rebellions.

I think Remender has said in an interview that the Descendants aren't even simple robots as they have a consciousness and are alive. Remember Urn said he had a daughter and he wanted to protect her from the likes of the Avengers when he was attacking Valkyrie.

Do you think Weapons Plus is still in operation and Father is still part of it? Also, does anybody know where Descendant City is located?

Well, New X-Men had them still being operational since the likes Fantomex and Ultimaton were created from the World facility though I don't think we have any indication if Weapon Plus is still operational. Morrison and others had it that John Sublime was the head of Weapon Plus and using it to breed supersoldiers for the eventual war against Mutants. Remender has, however, added Father into the equation who seems linked to Weapon Plus but has differing goals. spoilers:

Recently, UXF indicated that Father created an agent called the Skinless Man who fought in the Cold War and sent him on a mission to recover the Orb of Necromancy. However, Fantomex was sent to stop him so it seems that Weapon Plus and Father might possibly have cut ties and become enemies.

end of spoilers

The Descendant City? You mean the Core? I think Remender said in some interview that its located underground somewhere.

[jackolover]

Thanks for all that.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Not sure why Hawkeye's so fixated on keeping quiet, but doesn't bother me too much. I did enjoy seeing Jan being mentioned. Just because she's not good enough for Bendis doesn't mean the character doesn't have fans and isn't a critical part of Avengers lore.

It's part of Hawkeye's character -- he's got a complex since he knows he's a powerless hero and wants to prove to everyone else (and himself) that he can handle these situations. He doesn't want to come off as "weak" and ask for help.

Why does Hawkeye even think that was Janet Van Dyne? All the Descendants are just Cyborgs or Adaptoids or LMD's. That little melodrama between Jan and Clint was illogical, unless it was playing into Clints emotional investment in Janets likeness, (like George Costanza with his mothers doll), and guilt associated with killing the Wasp cyborg with a knife. If that was the case, then we're seeing Clint's mental sickness stemming from his 2 deaths at the hand of the Scarlet Witch. Clint wanted to find Wanda to get revenge and had sex with her instead; he wants the SA to not tell anyone about this missions fallout, (Torches destruction); he attacked Norman Osborn; and he is now willing to kill. (As well as the little mistake he made about the Cyborg being the real Janet).

The Dethloks are real people embedded with robot parts. It was the real her (presumably from another universe) that was f'd up into a Dethlok. Of course he's going to have reservations about killing her/it. You're looking too far into it -- I doubt any of Bendis's "work" on Clint counted in this decision.

[jackolover]

It's part of Hawkeye's character -- he's got a complex since he knows he's a powerless hero and wants to prove to everyone else (and himself) that he can handle these situations. He doesn't want to come off as "weak" and ask for help.

Clint is weak, and can't handle situations, and I don't know whether Clint will be leader when the SA get deployed to stop the Phoenix, either. He seems way too out-classed for a space captain.

The Dethloks are real people embedded with robot parts. It was the real her (presumably from another universe) that was f'd up into a Dethlok. Of course he's going to have reservations about killing her/it. You're looking too far into it -- I doubt any of Bendis's "work" on Clint counted in this decision.

I don't know that I've seen Clint this distracted before. His emotions are way too close to the surface to what we are used to. We've even seen Clint lift a car off himself, let alone the other dysfunctions I've described earlier. Clint may not realize he has Goliath strength while he is human size, (any residual Pym particles he may still have in his system) and the deaths he endured can't be that easy for a normal human to cope with. This may not be the same Clint Barton that existed before Avengers Disassembled?

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

I think he means Max Fury. He's got his hands in a bunch of pies right now, he's the most likely to be able to pull out, like the rest of the bots.

I agree, I think that the Doombot's arrogance is merely a red-herring to misdirect us into thinking he's the betrayer.

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

I love the direction this book is taking. It is one of a very few ‘must reads’ from DC and Marvel – Winter Soldier and Birds of Prey being the other two.

I was seriously going to drop the book when it was announced that Ellis was going to be leaving the title. I am so glad I stuck around – and stuck around even after the .1 issue was kind of ‘meh’.

My only serious...ahem! 'issue' with this issue was in one panel of the issue – shared by Jim Hammond and Captain Britain.

Hammond uses the word ‘Donnybrook’ and Captain Britain has no idea what he means. I call BS on that. ‘Donnybrook’ is an Irish term that originated in Ireland. It’s a pretty big stretch that Captain Britain wouldn’t be familiar with the term, especially given that when I lived I London for almost 5 years in the 1990's, I heard the term used – though not all the time, frequently enough – and saw it used in at least one headline on The Evening Standard (which ironically, had NO standards, except using any sensational tactic to sell a newspaper), as well as in a printed ad campaign.

On other points raised by other posters…

Re: Clint Barton’s leadership. They are either working out a storyline to see him replaced, or – and I think more likely – we’re going to find out that he actually knows that O’Grady has been replaced, and that THAT is why – for some reason – he seems to confide in O’Grady.

Re: Jim Hammond’s getting damaged. I too was pissed when we reached the point where he was damaged. Like some of the rest of you, I had an ‘oh, man!’ moment. Why do this so soon after other people had made such an effort to make him viable again?

By the issue’s end though, it seems pretty clear to me that he is alive, stable, and merely in need of repair.

Have to say this though – if they are setting up Hawkeye to ‘move on’ as team leader, then my vote is 100% for Hammond to take on the leadership. The way he was written in this issue he would make a great team leader, and it kind of makes sense that a Secret team would be run by a character that many people think of as dead.

[Monty_Cristo]

My only serious...ahem! 'issue' with this issue was in one panel of the issue – shared by Jim Hammond and Captain Britain.

Hammond uses the word ‘Donnybrook’ and Captain Britain has no idea what he means. I call BS on that. ‘Donnybrook’ is an Irish term that originated in Ireland. It’s a pretty big stretch that Captain Britain wouldn’t be familiar with the term, especially given that when I lived I London for almost 5 years in the 1990's, I heard the term used – though not all the time, frequently enough – and saw it used in at least one headline on The Evening Standard (which ironically, had NO standards, except using any sensational tactic to sell a newspaper), as well as in a printed ad campaign.

i think we are seeing a sliding timescale effect on Braddock. they are making him seem younger to contrast with Hammond (a relic). remember that he's a peer of Peter Parker. that makes him a peer of Flash and Eric.

Clint Barton’s leadership. They are either working out a storyline to see him replaced, or – and I think more likely – we’re going to find out that he actually knows that O’Grady has been replaced, and that THAT is why – for some reason – he seems to confide in O’Grady.

that would be really strange. but Clint's not as dumb as he looks. his experience in the carnival has helped him spot a con before.

Jim Hammond’s getting damaged. I too was pissed when we reached the point where he was damaged. Like some of the rest of you, I had an ‘oh, man!’ moment. Why do this so soon after other people had made such an effort to make him viable again?

it'll pay off. i can feel that they are going to elevate Hammond's position in the marvel universe. i half expect him to take over for Father (but not evil of course).

Have to say this though – if they are setting up Hawkeye to ‘move on’ as team leader, then my vote is 100% for Hammond to take on the leadership. The way he was written in this issue he would make a great team leader, and it kind of makes sense that a Secret team would be run by a character that many people think of as dead.

i guess it could happen but i kind of doubt it. they are milking Clint's movie-ization. he's supposed to be the draw.

[Moriarty]

i expect Hawkeye will work out whatever issues he has...in a few issues (heh). he's no noob. he's lead the West Coast Avengers and the Thunderbolts.

[Schnitzy Pretzelpants]

i think we are seeing a sliding timescale effect on Braddock. they are making him seem younger to contrast with Hammond (a relic). remember that he's a peer of Peter Parker. that makes him a peer of Flash and Eric.

Oh, I don't doubt that - the time scale thing - but Captain Britain - any relatively knowledgeable person from the UK that was over the age of 20 would know what the word meant.

Good points in the rest of your post too.

Gotta say, I didn't see the O'Grady as replicant twist coming - as much as I will miss him if he is dead-dead - that was the kind of twist that an espionage title thrives on.

[Prince Of Orphans]

The Dethloks are real people embedded with robot parts. It was the real her (presumably from another universe) that was f'd up into a Dethlok. Of course he's going to have reservations about killing her/it. You're looking too far into it -- I doubt any of Bendis's "work" on Clint counted in this decision.

Wait a sec, are these Deathlok Avengers related to the ones who chased Deathlok back in time during that one UXF arc? The one where Deathlok Cap blows his brains out when he regains control? If so, looks like my mind might just have been blown too. It makes perfect sense seeing how Father was part of both arcs. Can't believe i didn't catch this earlier.

[jackolover]

Have to say this though – if they are setting up Hawkeye to ‘move on’ as team leader, then my vote is 100% for Hammond to take on the leadership. The way he was written in this issue he would make a great team leader, and it kind of makes sense that a Secret team would be run by a character that many people think of as dead.

In That case the team of dead people should be:

Torch
Winter Soldier
Vision
Hawkeye
Ant-Man
Electra
Mocking Bird

[Prince Of Orphans]

In That case the team of dead people should be:

Torch
Winter Soldier
Vision
Hawkeye
Ant-Man
Electra
Mocking Bird

Wouldn't be a bad team actually. Throw in Agent Venom and you got one hell of a team.

[Monty_Cristo]

Wouldn't be a bad team actually. Throw in Agent Venom and you got one hell of a team.

i'd swap out Electra for Flash. and, just to be honest, i think Vision and Torch on the same team is kind of weird. i'd rather someone like Prince of Orphans fill in for Vision.

[Prince Of Orphans]

i'd swap out Electra for Flash. and, just to be honest, i think Vision and Torch on the same team is kind of weird. i'd rather someone like Prince of Orphans fill in for Vision.

That'd be fine with me lol

[jackolover]

i'd swap out Electra for Flash. and, just to be honest, i think Vision and Torch on the same team is kind of weird. i'd rather someone like Prince of Orphans fill in for Vision.

In fact having Mockingbird and Winter Soldier on the same team seems weird too, considering Mock has Caps powers and Bucky is Bucky. Would they automatically do what Cap and Bucky did, and feel comfortable doing it. (That sounds even weirder - Urk!)