Mythbusters: New52 Diana is Weak

[tangentman]

Going OT for a moment: I just want to remind folks that this IS a moderated forum. While the mod is busy with RL and running "background checks" on co-mod applicants, the threads are still monitored. For newer members, this forum is NOT a "free for all". Members have been ultimately perma-banned for the kind of negativity that seems commonplace here these days.

Done now.

[WhitOro]

Don't take it personally.

I haven't and once more I apologize if my tone was too rude.

[Nigel_Halsey]

Weak? New52 Supes doesn't seem to think so.

[WallyWest1495]

LOL. Do people even read comics? Superman almost killed Batman In adventures of Superman #642. It was Wonder Woman who saved Batman. Those who want Wonder Woman to become Hercules or hellboy aren't going to stick around for long time. NOOBS

[Gaelforce]

Wally - could you please keep the discussion about the book and not about the readers? We were all noobs once, and there's no need to go calling people names ;)

[WallyWest1495]

Okay. People need to do some research before posting here.

[Zagreus]

Ok, let's start with wagthedog.

This could be her jumping... (oops other beat me to the punch... but when I read the comic I assumed jumping)

[aegisbearer]

Thanks, guys. We were all "noobs" once, but it's not a term of endearment ;)

LOL. Do people even read comics? Superman almost killed Batman In adventures of Superman #642. It was Wonder Woman who saved Batman. Those who want Wonder Woman to become Hercules or hellboy aren't going to stick around for long time. NOOBS

Wally - could you please keep the discussion about the book and not about the readers? We were all noobs once, and there's no need to go calling people names ;)

Going OT for a moment: I just want to remind folks that this IS a moderated forum. While the mod is busy with RL and running "background checks" on co-mod applicants, the threads are still monitored. For newer members, this forum is NOT a "free for all". Members have been ultimately perma-banned for the kind of negativity that seems commonplace here these days.

Done now.

[SteveGus]

You're taking "depowering" in a much greater sense, I'm talking strictly to Wonder Woman capabilities. Even if you remove the Amazons, that doesn't make her weaker physically, she still spent her childhood with them, she was still trained by them.
An home-base can be rebuilt (soon of that later), her place is be a superhero in a world of superheroes, taking away a group doesn't prevent the single from being his own thing, especially if he/she already found her own way, like Diana did.
I see the Amazons like the Kents. They're something important in the Superman mythos, but overall, If I could just see Superman do his stuff, I'm more than happy.

I see it differently. Perez's biggest mistake was to kick Steve Trevor and Etta Candy into the corner. As a result, Trevor is a ghost of the character Lois Lane is.

Since Perez, almost every new writer has taken it upon himself to supply Wonder Woman with a new city and a new supporting cast. The one consistent thing is her relationship to Themiscyra / Paradise Island. Here are the only characters -- Hippolyte, Philippus, Artemis -- that have been developed by a succession of writers. This is why removing Paradise Island is the worst mistake a writer could make on this book. And even if he supplies a new Paradise Island elsewhere, that will be no adequate substitute.

[WhitOro]

Since Perez, almost every new writer has taken it upon himself to supply Wonder Woman with a new city and a new supporting cast. The one consistent thing is her relationship to Themiscyra / Paradise Island.

Didn't Biryne almost killed them all right before sending them away in another dimension or something?
But, yeah, I know subsequent writer brought them back again and again. I understand they're important, I'm not denying that. The amount of importance that they have I see if differently.

And even if he supplies a new Paradise Island elsewhere, that will be no adequate substitute.

I would wait and see the eventual surrogate Paradise before passing judgment.

This could be her jumping... (oops other beat me to the punch... but when I read the comic I assumed jumping)

You see, maybe I'm the one wrong, but I just can't see anybody jumping like that. She has the exact same pose as Superman, yet he's flying she's jumping. I don't get it.

[Dr. Hurt]

This is a remarkable insight about the book. Sa-LUTE!

And here's the problem. Wonder Woman isn't and can't be a female Hellboy. Wonder Woman isn't an unbound demon with a heart of gold summoned to earth. I can see how the idea has a superficial appeal. As Hellboy, you get to fight Nazis and hellspawn. If and when Wonder Woman gets her superhero back on, this would be a good recipe for a couple of arcs.

But Wonder Woman is unique among the superheroes in that she is not the product of a hell, but of a paradise. Any version of the character that takes that away is a travesty.

Well obviously she's not exactly like Hellboy, but the book does feel a lot like it in my opinion. It's more of an atmospheric - horror story and WW keeps greek gods in check.

Aw, if not much else, on this we can agree. I never said she would be un-awesome if she she couldn't fly. But the topic isn't whether or not she's awesome (a very subjective term); it's whether or not she's weaker than before.

And, btw, Batman does have powers; his marketability makes him the Bink of the DCU (everyone around him has to slow down so he can keep up).

Well they already slow down the Flash to accomondate everyone else in the JL so...
I mean the Flash could clear a room of villains before Superman even blinked.

[americanwonder]

LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT THE AMAZONS' HISTORY OF CRIMES HERE.
There're already four or five threads entirely devoted to that subject, please

You are correct. Apologies.

The fact that she doesn't use her superpowers, doesn't indicate a lack of them.

I agree. I'm just pointing out that not using her superpowers also doesn't indicate that she does have them. Both sides of the coin are true.

He's still a God and an incredibly rip dude. Bad knees or missing legs/arms never stopped comicbook characters from leaping into fights.
Fiction is filled with blacksmiths going inot battle because they're angry. Would that make every single scene with them dumb? They're dumb, maybe, but I can't see a scene like that be completly pointless or artificial just because a big arrogant gorilla decided to act like a big arrogant gorilla.

Hey, if the scene works for you - great. It doesn't work for me; it feels 'off.' He may be a god, but he's well-known for being crippled, the lame god. He's not a fighter, never has been, and he's worked his forge for millenia. I don't buy that he'd literally jump into this fight. Not when there's a much simpler solution, one he's well aware of, so readily available.

[americanwonder]

Well they already slow down the Flash to accomondate everyone else in the JL so...

Flash slows down to accomodate his own enemies. ;)

[SteveGus]

I suppose one way to approach this would be to look at what her powers are supposed to be by the books.

According to Marston:


According to Perez


With Marston, she's strong as Hercules, swift as Mercury, wise as Athena and as beautiful as Aphrodite. Later Pre-Crisis formulations upgraded this to "stronger than Hercules, swifter than Mercury....." Not sure they ever claimed she was wiser than Athena or more beautiful than Aphrodite.

With Perez:

• Strength of the Earth
• Beauty and a loving heart
• Wisdom
• Eye of the hunter
• Unity with beasts
• Sisterhood with fire to open men's hearts
• Speed
• Flight

The most conspicuous thing on the list that appears to have gone missing is the wisdom of Athena. This Diana has been lied to her whole life, and is only now learning. She misjudges people and social dynamics, with embarrassing results. The Justice League version of the character seems impetuous and imprudently aggressive.

Some of these powers had only flickering existences during the Perez and successive runs anyways; "unity with beasts" apparently to some writers meant that she could order around birds like Aquaman gives commands to fish. Not sure anyone ever did anything with sisterhood of fire.

Strength, eye of the hunter, speed, and flight are the most immediately relevant ones. It seems clear that she is stronger than a normal human, but she hasn't really been tested all that much. She is also quite fast, but again this hasn't been tested much. The jury's still out on whether she flies.

[tangentman]

During the rock concert, wasn't Diana seen by the stage when Strife started taunting Zola? Then, as Strife threatens Zola's baby, Diana shows up and grabs Strife's wrist. I'd say that counts toward a speed feat.

Definitely missing out on the "Wisdom of Athena". For those who questioned the "Sisterhood with Fire", people generally warmed up quickly to Diana. She also displayed resistance to extreme temperatures throughout the Pre-Nu52 run. Just one example, Diana's dip in smelted metal during Rucka's run.