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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    Well, if we're going by critical approval, the Johnny DC titles have been very well received -- so you might want to rethink your snark -- or open your mind a little more as to what makes a good comic.
    Did I say anything about how well they're received? Gus makes it clear he doesn't want anything mature in this comics, hence the availability of the Johnny DC books.

  2. #122
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Gus hates anything that tries to be a bit clever. Pretentious Vertigo writers being pretentious and all that.
    Hey Doc? Let's keep the chat about the comic and not the reader, please. Characterizing other people posting here or even the creators is uncalled for.

    That goes for everyone, by the way, so let's get back on track.

    Thanks!

    Gaelforce

  3. #123
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Hey Doc? Let's keep the chat about the comic and not the reader, please. Characterizing other people posting here or even the creators is uncalled for.

    That goes for everyone, by the way, so let's get back on track.

    Thanks!

    Gaelforce
    I wasnt mocking him, i was basically responding for him. I guess that's not polite either, but his whole view on this issue is ridiculous. God forbid there's a more complex story, he'll call it a pretentious and elitist Vertigo writer's effort to be pretentious. As if the current WW story is any complex or anything. Besides, he didnt take any offense. I think the WW boards have a higher threashold for offense because there are so many s***storms around these here parts.

  4. #124
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I wasnt mocking him, i was basically responding for him. I guess that's not polite either, but his whole view on this issue is ridiculous. God forbid there's a more complex story, he'll call it a pretentious and elitist Vertigo writer's effort to be pretentious. As if the current WW story is any complex or anything. Besides, he didnt take any offense. I think the WW boards have a higher threashold for offense because there are so many s***storms around these here parts.
    FWIW, my basic position is that bad stuff happens when you tell the writers of comic books that they aren't writing tales of pulp adventure and instead can shoot for the alleged grandeurs of Literary Fiction.

    You get highly decompressed storytelling in which each issue does not complete a mini-adventure or at least set up a cliffhanger.

    This style is especially inappropriate when you're attempting to introduce readers to essentially a new comic book superhero --- one who apparently shares litte more than the name with her predecessor in the title --- and her abilities and her world. If you're writing for the trade, you can imagine you have the leisure to wait until a seventh issue to show a major, major way in which your new character's environment is markedly different from her namesake's, and promises the erasure of the only consistent supporting cast she ever had these past twenty-six years. I believe this leads to greater anger, frustration, and drama than would have come had all of this been set up in #1 the way Perez did it. We are still in the dark as to who's a supporting cast member and who's a villain. Seven issues in and we're still wondering what her powers are. Again, Perez did it differently.

    Reading this as a monthly is frustrating. The information comes only in a trickle. Trying to write a monthly comic book like literary rather than pulp fiction is part of the problem, IMO.
    Last edited by SteveGus; 04-17-2012 at 06:37 AM.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  5. #125
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Different strokes for different folks Gus. Most comics are like that nowadays. It's not about being pretentious, it's about aiming higher with their stories.
    I guess the poplarity of action movies and tv series has affected comics as well which now try to immitate that bigger scope, the longer and more complex arcs, seeing a hero and his story evolve throughout a year, etc. To me Morrison's 6 year Batman run has been an unparalleled rollercoaster full of fun.

  6. #126
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Different strokes for different folks Gus. Most comics are like that nowadays. It's not about being pretentious, it's about aiming higher with their stories.
    "Aiming higher" when you shouldn't be is the dictionary definition of pretension: "an aspiration or intention that may or may not reach fulfillment".
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #127
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    This conversation would need another thread entirely.

  8. #128
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I wasnt mocking him, i was basically responding for him. I guess that's not polite either, but his whole view on this issue is ridiculous. God forbid there's a more complex story, he'll call it a pretentious and elitist Vertigo writer's effort to be pretentious. As if the current WW story is any complex or anything. Besides, he didnt take any offense. I think the WW boards have a higher threashold for offense because there are so many s***storms around these here parts.
    Whether or not he took offense isn't the issue as these sorts of things can spiral out of control. He's entitled to his opinion as are you, but all we ask is that you keep those opinions focused ideas, characters and stories and not comments directed at people. Even if the person you directed you comment at didn't take offense, others might and then they respond in kind, and so on and so on.

    This way we keep the discourse civil :)

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    "Aiming higher" when you shouldn't be is the dictionary definition of pretension: "an aspiration or intention that may or may not reach fulfillment".
    They may not reach your fulfillment, but speak for yourself. Comics have evolved from simplistic, juvenile storytelling and so have the readers.

  10. #130
    Mark Millar Licks Goats BeccaBlast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    They may not reach your fulfillment, but speak for yourself. Comics have evolved from simplistic, juvenile storytelling and so have the readers.
    Let's ALL remember that equating agreement with sophistication is a sure sign that you have neither, shall we?
    Some days a girl wants to ride ponies. Some days a girl wants to punch tanks. Today ... is a tank day.

  11. #131
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    They may not reach your fulfillment, but speak for yourself. Comics have evolved from simplistic, juvenile storytelling and so have the readers.
    In case anyone is still in the dark about why I think Vertigo's a bad influence, here it is in a nutshell.

    A person reading Perez's #1 could sit down and say "The new Wonder Woman is like the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman in points A, B, C and different in D, E, F." Here we have a nine page thread wondering about to what extent Azzarello has depowered her. I think it's also fair to say that both writers were tasked with the job of re-establishing the character in a new continuity and new shared universe. Which one of them earned their keep?
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    In case anyone is still in the dark about why I think Vertigo's a bad influence, here it is in a nutshell.

    A person reading Perez's #1 could sit down and say "The new Wonder Woman is like the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman in points A, B, C and different in D, E, F." Here we have a nine page thread wondering about to what extent Azzarello has depowered her. I think it's also fair to say that both writers were tasked with the job of re-establishing the character in a new continuity and new shared universe. Which one of them earned their keep?
    Mabey she does not know the full extent of her powers yet? Just because she has flight now does not mean she wont in another arc

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    In case anyone is still in the dark about why I think Vertigo's a bad influence, here it is in a nutshell.

    A person reading Perez's #1 could sit down and say "The new Wonder Woman is like the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman in points A, B, C and different in D, E, F." Here we have a nine page thread wondering about to what extent Azzarello has depowered her. I think it's also fair to say that both writers were tasked with the job of re-establishing the character in a new continuity and new shared universe. Which one of them earned their keep?
    Actually we have 9 pages of people convinced Azzarello has depowered her arguing with people who are convinced he is just uses her powers in a different way.
    And both earned their keep, sale are up in both cases and people are talking about Wonder Woman again.
    And really, whats wrong with a comicbook that actually makes you think?

  14. #134
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Whether or not he took offense isn't the issue as these sorts of things can spiral out of control. He's entitled to his opinion as are you, but all we ask is that you keep those opinions focused ideas, characters and stories and not comments directed at people. Even if the person you directed you comment at didn't take offense, others might and then they respond in kind, and so on and so on.

    This way we keep the discourse civil :)
    Will do. Thanks a lot and i apologize for my behaviour!
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    In case anyone is still in the dark about why I think Vertigo's a bad influence, here it is in a nutshell.

    A person reading Perez's #1 could sit down and say "The new Wonder Woman is like the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman in points A, B, C and different in D, E, F." Here we have a nine page thread wondering about to what extent Azzarello has depowered her. I think it's also fair to say that both writers were tasked with the job of re-establishing the character in a new continuity and new shared universe. Which one of them earned their keep?
    No, it's mostly 9 pages of people venting their rage that WW is depowered and others trying to explain that that's not necessarily the case. And the discussion went on in circles forever.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 04-17-2012 at 04:20 PM.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Actually we have 9 pages of people convinced Azzarello has depowered her arguing with people who are convinced he is just uses her powers in a different way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    No, it's mostly 9 pages of people venting their rage that WW is depowered and others trying to explain that that's not necessarily the case.
    I don't think either of these statemens is very accurate. I've got plenty of posts in this thread, but I don't fit what you describe, and I'm not raging (not on the power issue). I know it's easy, and oh so tempting, to simplify the viewpoint(s) of others (I do this too often myself), but I don't think it's very conductive to the discussion.

    Dr. Hurt is right in that this discussion does go round in circles, and I don't doubt that will continue.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

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