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  1. #61
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Are we to reach a conclusion that the conflict comes down to preferences of "Street-level Wonder Woman" vs. "High-powered Wonder Woman"?

    Personally, I like the power levels that Wonder Woman displayed Post-Crisis. Fans enjoyed moments such as Wonder Woman ripping an old battleship] from a pissed-off giant's (Ixion) hands--and utilizing rapid flight in the process! WhitOro, the best Wonder Woman smack-down of the Silver Swan happened when Perez drew her flying out of the ocean and slapping the Swan with a super-strong flick of a wet cape. Also, the JLA/Titans mini gave us an awesome scene (drawn by the immensely-talented Phil Jiminez) where Wonder Woman casually stops a mountain-sized chunk of space debris from leveling New York City!

    To step outside the black-and-white thinking that I see dominating this thread, I've also enjoyed the Buffyesque fight scenes of the current series. Sure, they're simpler choreography than, say, WW vs. Medousa, or WW & Barda vs. The Female Furies, but I still think they work quite well! I've seen arguments of whether or not Diana gave a strong enough showing based on power displays. Personally, I think it would be out-of-character for Diana to NOT use her hand-to-hand combat skills. Much of the character is based in physicality--outrageous athletic feats, superior martial arts ability, wrestling down foes, etc.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

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  2. #62
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Are we to reach a conclusion that the conflict comes down to preferences of "Street-level Wonder Woman" vs. "High-powered Wonder Woman"?
    Not really. A lot of people seems convinced that the New52 Wonder Woman is weaker compared to the pre-reboot one. My entire point is that this is not true, Diana hasn't been depowered, she's the same, but the context of her battles makes her seem weaker because she's involved in conflicts that don't require her to use her superpowers.
    I don't want a "Street-level Diana", and I don't think this one is.
    This conflict that you brought up might have some value in this overall thread, but that's not really the case. I don't think anybody here's prefers or wants a "Street-Diana". The true discussion is between people that believes Diana to be as strong as usual, and others that believe Azzarello depowered her.

    WhitOro, the best Wonder Woman smack-down of the Silver Swan happened when Perez drew her flying out of the ocean and slapping the Swan with a super-strong flick of a wet cape. Also, the JLA/Titans mini gave us an awesome scene (drawn by the immensely-talented Phil Jiminez) where Wonder Woman casually stops a mountain-sized chunk of space debris from leveling New York City!
    I never doubted incredibly cool moments can be written with flying Diana, and I do prefer her when flying.
    That doesn't mean that I consider her eventual lack of flying a crime against nature and a complete destruction of her role in the comicbook world.
    Last edited by WhitOro; 04-14-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  3. #63
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    has anyone noticed the overwhelming negativity on this forum? cant we talk about happy things, like Strife?

  4. #64
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Not really. A lot of people seems convinced that the New52 Wonder Woman is weaker compared to the pre-reboot one. My entire point is that this is not true, Diana hasn't been depowered, she's the same, but the context of her battles makes her seem weaker because she's involved in conflicts that don't require her to use her superpowers.
    I don't want a "Street-level Diana", and I don't think this one is.
    Taking a cue from the "Handbook of The Marvel Universe", or the Classic Marvel Superheroes RPG, I'd quantify what we've seen from Azzarello's Wonder Woman as "Class 10"/"Incredible" super-strength. Basically, the "ability to lift 10 tons". I won't apply any value judgments, just pointing that out based on the strength feats which we've seen so far.

    This conflict that you brought up might have some value in this overall thread, but that's not really the case. I don't think anybody here's prefers or wants a "Street-Diana". The true discussion is between people that believes Diana to be as strong as usual, and others that believe Azzarello depowered her.
    I think that conflict has more than "some value". I've seen statements from the more ardent fans of the current run to the effect that they like the notion of a powered-down Diana. That they considered the prior version "over-powered", a sentiment that seems to appear in several threads. I think that it's a tension which fuels what you're talking about in the original post.

    I never doubted incredibly cool moments can be written with flying Diana, and I do prefer her when flying.
    That doesn't mean that I consider her eventual lack of flying a crime against nature and a complete destruction of her role in the comicbook world.
    I wouldn't go so far as to describe it that way, because I can live without a flying Wonder Woman. I grew up seeing Wonder Woman glide, then transitioning into the Perez revision. During Loebs' run, Diana briefly lost her flight ability due to an injury from a one-shot foe, Mayfly. I've seen Wonder Woman fly and I've seen her not fly. My concern lies in any de-powering of my favorite super-heroine, while other heroes evolve or retain their power levels.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Oh god, what is it with this argument? I can't stand it, sorry.
    Character are not alive, if the author doesn't make them do something, they don't do anything. If Azzarello didn't make he do anything, Wonder Woman would be still sleeping in London while Zola gets butchered.
    Hephe looks like the kind of guy that would jump against something, he's bulky, monsterous and uses an hammer, he looks like the stereotypical barbarian. I don't see him thinking twice about something like this.
    The point is simple: Someone said Diana was smart for thinking to use the forge against the lava lizard. I disagree. Not because Diana wasn't smart (she was), but because the scene itself is dumb.

    Hephaestus is not a fighter. Never has been. He's worked the forge for how long now? And the comic itself shows him with bad knees. I don't care how "bulky" he is, he's not the type to leap first into fighting. Dumb scene is dumb, and thus Diana (to me) can't look smart just because those around here are really dumbed down.

    ps - the pic made me laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Not really. A lot of people seems convinced that the New52 Wonder Woman is weaker compared to the pre-reboot one. My entire point is that this is not true, Diana hasn't been depowered, she's the same, but the context of her battles makes her seem weaker because she's involved in conflicts that don't require her to use her superpowers...
    Maybe I'm not following you, but doesn't this contradict itself and the OP? I mean, if the conflicts don't require the use of her superpowers, how do we know she's actually at the same level of power as before?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Whats the point of that one? Diana was trying to pull Strife down to the ground (like everyone seems to try when faced with a giant foe) but gets pulled into the air instead because Strife happens to be strong enough lift her?
    What was flight going to change here?
    What's flight going to change? You can't see how flight would give her increased mobility and options?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    3) Non flight makes fights more interesting and showcases her fighting skills...

    4) Superman is based on space sci-fi, WW is based on mythology. Flight suits Superman but not her.

    But no, dont listen to reason or internal logic, ...
    How did you get from personal preference and opinion to reason and internal logic?

    For starters, a humanoid alien gets the ability to fly from yellow solar power - that's logical?

    Apparently Diana's daddy is the god of the heavens itself, but her flying would be without any internal reason?

    Serious?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    What's flight going to change? You can't see how flight would give her increased mobility and options?
    Which means absolutely nothing if she chooses not to use them.
    The thing is, despite what Strife may already have done, Diana would know that a full blown battle with a Olympian deity, one usually accompanying her brother into battle, would be causing far more dead Amazons than was actually worth it, at best it would result in a Pyrrhic Victory for Diana. (we've already seen that it takes one wrong move for Strife to have the Amazons start butchering each other, a full on battle with her would most likely lead most of the Amazons dead at their own hands.)

  9. #69

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    Then why attack/lasso Strife at all? Flight or no-flight, doesn't really have any bearing there, does it?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Then why attack/lasso Strife at all? Flight or no-flight, doesn't really have any bearing there, does it?
    Distracting Strifes attention from all the other Amazons onto herself, a bit like what Aragon, Gandalf and all the other heroes did in Lord of the Rings when they marched on Mordor.

  11. #71
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Not really. A lot of people seems convinced that the New52 Wonder Woman is weaker compared to the pre-reboot one. My entire point is that this is not true, Diana hasn't been depowered, she's the same, but the context of her battles makes her seem weaker because she's involved in conflicts that don't require her to use her superpowers.
    It is difficult for me, at least, to accept that Azzarello is not depowering Diana. She's lost her army, her home base, her entire place in the DC universe; this does depower her as a character even if she as an individual still has every superpower she did before the run. Since the entire run has been an exercise in removing most of the traditional elements from her backstory without replacing them, actually removing abilities from the character seems to be consistent with the general theme of the book as it stands now. It would seem that she doesn't have most of the gifts from the goddesses that Perez gave her, though some of those were always hard to figure and none of them were really used all that consistently by later writers.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Distracting Strifes attention from all the other Amazons onto herself, a bit like what Aragon, Gandalf and all the other heroes did in Lord of the Rings when they marched on Mordor.
    On this, I agree. I just think that being able to fly would give her more options and mobility in doing so (whether or not she chooses to use them here).

    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    It is difficult for me, at least, to accept that Azzarello is not depowering Diana. She's lost her army, her home base, her entire place in the DC universe; this does depower her as a character even if she as an individual still has every superpower she did before the run. Since the entire run has been an exercise in removing most of the traditional elements from her backstory without replacing them, actually removing abilities from the character seems to be consistent with the general theme of the book as it stands now. It would seem that she doesn't have most of the gifts from the goddesses that Perez gave her, though some of those were always hard to figure and none of them were really used all that consistently by later writers.
    I could argue that it doesnt take more than footnotes away from Wonder Woman that all of the Amazons are potentially dead (for the time being), partially because Superman has managed being the next-to-last Kryptonian for over half a century, partially because the Amazons are 'just' where Diana came from and she is still from there, whats different now is that her people aren't there anymore in a practical sense (unless she speaks snake...which she could in the old days).
    The problem with your augment with the Amazons is that 99% of them are faceless nobodies without a story to tell or a face to remember, so if they are there or not doesn't matter unless they are wiped out with no chance of return (the Earth-2 WW is the result). Add to this is that the Amazons are only involved in a WW story in a story in something like once every 2 years or so, making it easy to forget what they mean to Diana be they dead or alive.

    Story wise it's more interesting to see what skeletons the Amazons have in their closets than maintaining the belief that they were an 100% bonafied ideal society where nothing was ever wrong. To me at least the idea that anyone person (like Superman for instance) or a society (Kryptonians, Amazons) lived in an ideal society simply makes for utterly boring stories when it comes to superhero comics, because they are useless when it comes to anything more engaging than as examples. I mean, if something like Krypton existed in the DCU today and was reachable for the normal human and the Kryptonians would allow it, why would humans stay on Earth when a new Eden was nearby?
    So if the Kryptonians were overall supremacist jerks, more like Zod than Kal, it makes for better contemporary stories as it gives the hero dilemmas about where they stand and a new ballpark full of foes that can match them, as they choose us petty humans over their false paradise worlds.

    As for powers...I would say that there isn't a definite proof that Diana has actually lost anything, yet.
    True, she didn't break Strife in half, but perhaps Diana knows that doing so would bring out her siblings; like Ares. Or that you possibly cant actually kill a god, even if you wanted to.
    She didn't insta-win the centaurs either, but;
    a) when did Diana insta-win any of her more or less pathetic rogues like Giganta? (Don't argue here, Diana could in the past help out with towing millions of tons of rock, whats a 50 feet woman going to do to her?)
    b) people here threw a fit Diana chopped one of their arms off, if she did worse people would have yelled even louder, if she KO'ed them it would have been called a boring story.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    On this, I agree. I just think that being able to fly would give her more options and mobility in doing so (whether or not she chooses to use them here).

    It would, I agree totally, but only against a more conventional enemy.
    Against someone like Giganta, yes it would save Diana from going for the ankles before she could go for the head, but Strife...not so much.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    ... Story wise it's more interesting to see what skeletons the Amazons have in their closets than maintaining the belief that they were an 100% bonafied ideal society where nothing was ever wrong...
    Do you know this hasn't been true of the Amazons for decades now?*




    (*if it ever was true)
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

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