Mythbusters: New52 Diana is Weak

[Reginleif]

I like this thread

how so bro?

[aegisbearer]

Wow, I love this post! Thanks, WhitOro!

I shouldn’t be doing this, nobody ever reads my wall of texts.

Wonder Woman powers have been one of the (many, many, many) points of controversy among the fans and non-fans of the title recently.
Words like “incompetent” “weak” and “under-powered” have been thrown around a lot. Truth is, these (like most) are pointless complains with no real fundaments.
It’s all a matter of perspective. Perspective people.

Let’s take the always perfect example of Superman.

Imagine Superman fighting a Big-Damn Robot in the middle of Metropolis. How would it go down? Lots of screaming, lots of yelling, lots of strong earth shattering punches, a lot of destruction around the scene, building collapsing, big explosions. A pretty epic confrontation, right? you can see the incredible powers confronting each other on the environment and you can really feel what each of the two is capable off.

Now picture the same battle, but in the middle of the desert. No buildings, no rocks, no mountains, no nothing for miles and miles and miles. It’s still a pretty big confrontation, but in the end, there’s nothing around them that can prove the strength they’re showing, so, in the end, the battle feels somewhat inferior and the two fighters look weaker by comparison.

Now back to Metropolis, but with Superman fighting three arm robbers. Do you think this fight would cause massive destruction? No. Do you think Superman is gonna use all his powers against these three douche-bags? No. So the battle would be pretty unimpressive (if there’s a battle), and you would get the impression that nothing was really done.

It’s all perspective. Changing the scenario and the enemy doesn’t change the character, nor his power set. What changes it’s his way of the character for dealing with the threat and the way we look at the overall conflict.
With that said, let’s go take a look at some of the biggest fights WW had up to this point.

1* Diana vs Centaurs
Location: the middle of nowhere. The enemies: two random monsters.
No building to destroy, no damage to be done, just a quick one on one.
WW is still fast enough to see and understand that an arrow is coming their way. Some said that she appeared weak, since the arrow threw her to the ground, but that's a mistake: The strength of the arrow didn’t throw her to the ground, she threw herself to it. Look at the angle in the page.
But, despite being on the ground and a centaur soons attacks her, she needs mere seconds to decide what to do, and those are all pretty elaborate ideas: not simply kill the two monsters, but save the girl, steal their weapons, she gives us great showing of aim and agility.
These are not enemies she needs to use her superpowers on, they’re barely a threat and she treats them so, still humiliating them while remaining completely unscathed.

2* Diana vs Aleka
This a fight against a normal human being, a trained warrior Amazon that is, but still a mortal with no known superpowers. Plus, is a weapon based fight on top of pillars (so Diana can’t fly, that would be cheap and dishonorable). Again, it’s no slugfest, it’s a battle of tactics and talent with weapons. Note also, that Diana treats it like a game. While Aleka snarls and grimaces with anger, Diana keeps a smile through the all things, Aleka chooses the sword, Diana a simple staff. She knows she can beat Aleka in a second (hell, during Strife assaults she practically does that without looking at her), and that’s what she does: the battle lasts four hits.
Diana gives Aleka a false sense of security, allowing her to take make the first move, and the second she decides to strike, the battle is over.

This is a fight of body language and fight of psychology. Diana smiling, Aleka going all the way to take her down, everything is on the art (a gift by the amazing narrative abilities of Cliff Chiang). Azzarello doesn’t use the “internal monologue” that we are all so used too, so we don’t see it, it’s not spelled out, but it’s like it was there from the beginning.



It’s not a fight that needs superpowers, it’s a fight that requires talent, skills and mind.

Interlude: Diana “vs” Strife
I made this discussion to address the reasons Diana is not incompetent, but I won’t shy away from the less “stellar” moments.
It happens sometimes, in the life of a superhero, that something might just go a little wrong. S**t happens folks.
Diana is incompetent and stupid, Strife just pulls her from the ground with no problems.
WW got caught by surprise. Strife is a freakin’ goddess, a powerful entity, not the cosplayers we had on the book history since before the relaunch. Yes, she got caught by surprise. Does that make her incompetent and weak?
Is Superman incompetent for letting Lex Luthor punch him or trap him? Is Batman incompetent for letting Darkseid zap him? Is Flash incompetent for slip on the ice created by Cap Cold?
Superheroes are not entirely invincible, this kind of stuff happens. There’s a name for perfect heroes that never fail and never do wrong and are invincible and undefeated for their entire story: Mary Sue.

3* Diana vs Poseidon
Diana is weak, the big blue-whale can trap her and then hit her and she can’t do anything about it.
WW went to the meeting with Poseidon to talk. To trick him. She wasn’t there to fight and she wasn’t there to harm him. She’s not giving opposition because she doesn’t want to, not because she can’t. she wants to bring Poseidon to have a civil discussion with Hades, you can’t do that if you maim him.
And when Poseidon hits her (after she freed herself with no particular difficulty) what does happen? Nothing. No bruises, no screams, no complains, it’s like a leaf touched her skin. In a matter of instants, she sees the two centaurs attacking once more. No problem

4* Diana vs Centaurs, round Two
Dian can’t fly, she uses the staff to jump and rescue Zola.
No. The use of the pole is just another proof of Diana quick-mind and intelligence. In a matter of seconds, she uses the staff to hit the centaur and while she’s at it, she jumps against the second-Centaur. And now, this is a showing of her superstrenght: I’ve always thought she just landed on the monster and squashed him, but now I realize that’s stupid. That’s not what’s going on: her legs are clean, it’s her hands that are dirty with blood.
That means, she ripped the centaur open with her bare hands. Now that’s strength.
(*cue to oooh Diana brutally slaughtered that poor innocent mindless-monster! She’s a brute*)

The Flight issue
New52 Diana can’t fly, the proofs are: you never see her doing it in her book / in Justice League Hal Jordan has to carry her around.
I say, bulls**t:
In JL5 It was an error of Jim Lee. How do I know that? Because he’s Jim Lee, and he does plenty of errors (in the previous issue he drew her costume in three different ways). Otherwise, how she goes from Washington to Metropolis in a matter of hours (the sky is darker in Metropolis)?
Also, you can clearly see her fly in Justice League Dark and Justice League #7 right at the side of Superman.

And in her book? One would argue that if she flies in the other books, she should fly in her own too, right? Right.
She over on the water in issue 5. Unless she’s the Messiah and she’s walking on it. You can see her “diving” in issue 6.
Again, it’s Azzarello take. From his own mouth:
Maybe I'm just using her ability to fly judiciously. She's using her ability to fly judiciously! I've been really trying to take some of the powers that she has that I think are redundancies in other characters and claim them back[…]
Flying is like the character monologue-boxes. Is something you see every time in a superhero book and Azzarello simply doesn’t use/shows because it’s redundant or repetitive. That doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Let’s go back to Superman: if an author decides to never use Kryptonite (thank god) during the course of his run, does that mean Superman is now immune from it? Does it mean Kryptonite doesn’t exist? Of course not. The same way if a writer never uses batragans during his 80-issue run of Batman, that doesn’t mean the crusader doesn’t have them anymore.

Conclusion
Diana isn’t weaker, nor has she lost powers. The truth is, Azzarello simply decided to go to a different route. Instead of classic big superhero thrown downs, Diana is involved in fights that require her to use her brain, her talents as a trained warrior and her imagination.
She doesn’t need to fly, she doesn’t need to use her superstrenght, punch an enemy across the state, destroy a building, cause massive collateral damage, her body doesn’t have to receive big hits, but that doesn’t mean she can’t do all that stuff.

She’s not weaker. She’s the same in a different setting.

[Jabare]

how so bro?

The OP is well thought out and articulated, and I agree with it for the most part, not fully but for the most part.

I disagree with the notion that Wonder Woman needs to fly or be as strong as Superman to be awesome though.

[americanwonder]

Let me buy a round of drinks and argue with you good folks.

... We have guys like Green Arrow and Black Canary that when are written well can defeate beings like Darkseid (Grant Morrison run on the JLA if I'm not mistaking), ...

Green Arrow would have accomplished nothing in that scene without The Atom. Nothing. And you will never convince me he's as dangerous as Superman. Never. That's not to say he (and Black Canary, etc) is not valuable/awesome/interesting. But he is weaker and less dangerous.

... and in the MARVEL Universe you have guys like She-Hulk and Herc, top-tier powerhouses that are stuck to the ground...

Why would I want WW to be more like Marvel characters? Marvel characters that sell less (ie, less people find them worth their money).

... The battle in the Smith's forge against Hell's.....lava lizard, or whatever it was. The Smith seems fairly impotent in that battle while Diana, in two smooth motions, defeats the foe; highlighting her aptitude for tactical thinking (again) as well as showing how brutal the lasso can be...

To me, the fight with lava lizard is not really impressive because lava lizard does nothing impressive. Sure, The Smith is impotent, but when has he ever been a fighter? And I don't believe for an instant that he wouldn't have thought of the same thing Diana did. And thought of it first. Dull fight.

... And Justice League's battle ...

I find it sad that WW has more good showings in JL, a title she wasn't even in for the first two issues.

... I dare anyone to read Action Comics and tell me that the scenes of Superman leaping around are not pretty epic in and of themselves. Watching him jump into space is one of the coolest things I have seen DC do in a while. Had he simply flown into space? An epic moment becomes bland and cliched.

Action is good fun. Action is also the beginning of Clarks career in tights. That, for me, is a big difference. And WW jumping/judicial flying for seven issues has not been near as epic. For me.

Finally, I think the "roots" arguement should be disqualified on the grounds that so much of the rest of the story is about destr... um, rewriting the rest of her roots.

[WhitOro]

I like this thread

Wow, I love this post! Thanks, WhitOro!

Oh my, so many compliments.

Let me buy a round of drinks and argue with you good folks.

But I can't drink through my PC!

To me, the fight with lava lizard is not really impressive because lava lizard does nothing impressive. Sure, The Smith is impotent, but when has he ever been a fighter? And I don't believe for an instant that he wouldn't have thought of the same thing Diana did. And thought of it first. Dull fight

First, it's an hellspawn that captures a God in his jaws.
But second, again, the "impressiveness" doesn't come from the fact that she beats it, it comes from the fact that she needs a few seconds to find a possible weakness and exploit it. Hephaestus acts the same way Superman or Green Lantern would: he charges the big ugly monster to beat it by punching it. Diana instead uses her head, and she kills a giant in less than a minute, plus proving that she mastered the lasso in a way that his same creator didn't thought off. Hephastus created the lasso, yet he never saw it as a weapon, Diana proves to him that his far deadlier than he could imagine, showing how she mastered it.

Why would I want WW to be more like Marvel characters? Marvel characters that sell less (ie, less people find them worth their money).

Well now, that's just mean. Beside, at MARVEL nothing sells well unless it as X-Men or Avengers on the cover. Characters like Herc and She-Hulk will be much better at DC, because they are awesome.
With my examples I wasn't saying that WW should be like them, I was saying that those two character are considered formidable powerhouses (and would by the DC standards too), yet they don't fly.

Speaking of Hercules, if Azzarello does the gracious thing of not making him a rapist, we could have brother and sister be drinking buddies.

Finally, I think the "roots" arguement should be disqualified on the grounds that so much of the rest of the story is about destr... um, rewriting the rest of her roots.

It's called "expanding".

[psyshot]

I don't mind the current power level. I never really liked the powering up of WW by Perez; I always preferred the pre-crisis version where she and the amazons were athletes who had to train to be at super-human level. One scene I liked in one of the early New Teen Titans issues was when Wonder Girl stopped a truck in its course, but in doing so she strained her back. It made her more relatable to me.

So far there is not a lot of action but I liked the few action scenes.

[PauloIapetus]

Let’s go back to Superman: if an author decides to never use Kryptonite (thank god) during the course of his run, does that mean Superman is now immune from it? Does it mean Kryptonite doesn’t exist? Of course not. The same way if a writer never uses batragans during his 80-issue run of Batman, that doesn’t mean the crusader doesn’t have them anymore.

Conclusion
Diana isn’t weaker, nor has she lost powers. The truth is, Azzarello simply decided to go to a different route. Instead of classic big superhero thrown downs, Diana is involved in fights that require her to use her brain, her talents as a trained warrior and her imagination.
She doesn’t need to fly, she doesn’t need to use her superstrenght, punch an enemy across the state, destroy a building, cause massive collateral damage, her body doesn’t have to receive big hits, but that doesn’t mean she can’t do all that stuff.

She’s not weaker. She’s the same in a different setting.

It resembles pretty much Alan Moore's Promethea, she was capable of flying but her main battles were against enemies that required the showcasing of the qualities mentioned by you.

Great post and thanks for quoting Brian Azzarello's words and remembering that she was presented as capable of flying in JLA Dark.

[Rob_Olivera]

It resembles pretty much Alan Moore's Promethea, she was capable of flying but her main battles were against enemies that required the showcasing of the qualities mentioned by you.

Great post and thanks for quoting Brian Azzarello's words and remembering that she was presented as capable of flying in JLA Dark.

You call this flying? I call it just a pose. Superman is the one up in the air. The following page was just them stuck in a whirlwind of flying teeth. It was a vortex

[ascended]

To me, the fight with lava lizard is not really impressive because lava lizard does nothing impressive. Sure, The Smith is impotent, but when has he ever been a fighter? And I don't believe for an instant that he wouldn't have thought of the same thing Diana did. And thought of it first. Dull fight.

Well, Azzarello certainly lacks the flair for big fight scenes that other writers have. But the lava lizard did manage to manhandle one of the eldest gods in the Greek pantheon. And its true the Smith has never been a fighter, but he is still a god, infinitely old and experienced, and one of the most powerful on Olympus if Im remembering my mythology classes correctly. Im certain he would have thought of the same trick Diana did and won the battle, but he clearly did not think of it first or he would have done the same rather than charging in.

I find it sad that WW has more good showings in JL, a title she wasn't even in for the first two issues.

True enough, though the tone and purpose of the two titles are quite different. Still, given the shared continuity one can assume that her power levels remain the same across both.

Action is good fun. Action is also the beginning of Clarks career in tights. That, for me, is a big difference. And WW jumping/judicial flying for seven issues has not been near as epic. For me.

Certainly fair enough. Though my point had nothing to do with where Clark's power levels eventually fall, and more with the fact that him leaping around has been pretty wicked.

Finally, I think the "roots" arguement should be disqualified on the grounds that so much of the rest of the story is about destr... um, rewriting the rest of her roots. [/QUOTE]

I never saw "going back to the roots" as a viable argument either. In this particular case it does help the idea of Diana not flying a bit, since flight was never really one of her powers until Perez. But yeah, I agree, that excuse only holds so much water. Sometimes it can work, as in Action's case. Sometimes its just a way of saying "I have no idea what to do with this character."

...I really hope this gets quoted right. My last few posts I messed it up and didnt get the blue box....

[Outside_85]

To me, the fight with lava lizard is not really impressive because lava lizard does nothing impressive. Sure, The Smith is impotent, but when has he ever been a fighter? And I don't believe for an instant that he wouldn't have thought of the same thing Diana did. And thought of it first. Dull fight.

Some complain that Diana didnt instantly massacre the centaurs from #1, here we have the other end of the scale complaining that she beat the molten steel monster too easily.

Well, Azzarello certainly lacks the flair for big fight scenes that other writers have. But the lava lizard did manage to manhandle one of the eldest gods in the Greek pantheon. And its true the Smith has never been a fighter, but he is still a god, infinitely old and experienced, and one of the most powerful on Olympus if Im remembering my mythology classes correctly. Im certain he would have thought of the same trick Diana did and won the battle, but he clearly did not think of it first or he would have done the same rather than charging in.

You're right that he isn't a fighter, he's a creator, that's his field. He can get angry and hatch a plan through invention, but he cant fight his way out of a wet paper bag. And he's limp because Zeus/Hera threw him off Olympus, so he cant even move properly. I think you read it wrong by the way, Hepaestus isn't a powerful god, he's an important one.

I find it sad that WW has more good showings in JL, a title she wasn't even in for the first two issues.

When? Stabbing Darkseid in the eye?

True enough, though the tone and purpose of the two titles are quite different. Still, given the shared continuity one can assume that her power levels remain the same across both.

Her personality hasn't made the jump by the looks of it.

Action is good fun. Action is also the beginning of Clarks career in tights. That, for me, is a big difference. And WW jumping/judicial flying for seven issues has not been near as epic. For me.

Neither of them have needed to fly either, its the fans that desperately want it to see it happen.
Brett Booth thought Solstice was engaging for him to work with, so he went with the charcoal look (which I personally don't get).
Brian Azzarello got bored with WW flying as if she could decide if she wanted that pesky thing we call gravity to affect her or not.

[americanwonder]

But I can't drink through my PC!

Guess I'll have to drink it for you. ;)

First, it's an hellspawn that captures a God in his jaws...

An impotent God not know for his fighting (and w/ bad knees, apparently). After all these years in the forge, Hephy can't remember the fastest way to flash-cool somthing hot? Breaking a flashed cooled statue isn't deadly. Please, it's a weak, manufactured scene.

Well now, that's just mean.

I know.

... I was saying that those two character are considered formidable powerhouses (and would by the DC standards too), yet they don't fly.

Powerhouses that no one cares about. Canceled!

It's called "expanding".

"Expanding," eh?

[americanwonder]

... Im certain he would have thought of the same trick Diana did and won the battle, but he clearly did not think of it first or he would have done the same rather than charging in...

I'm not buying. He didn't think of it first only because the author controls the situation, and here, the author didn't want him thinking of it first. Sorry, I don't buy it. Poor showing, imo. Just doesn't ring true.

... Neither of them have needed to fly either, ...

Neither has needed to fly because the author controls all the elements. While Clark is hopping about, maybe someone fell to their doom because he couldn't reach them in time? That didn't happen simply because the author pulls all the strings, not because of any merit the characters have.

[ascended]

I'm not buying. He didn't think of it first only because the author controls the situation, and here, the author didn't want him thinking of it first. Sorry, I don't buy it. Poor showing, imo. Just doesn't ring true.



Neither has needed to fly because the author controls all the elements. While Clark is hopping about, maybe someone fell to their doom because he couldn't reach them in time? That didn't happen simply because the author pulls all the strings, not because of any merit the characters have.

Fair enough on the first point. Personally, any time a god shows up in any form of media and shows an ability to be out-done I find it doesnt quite wash. Are these gods or just Kryptonians? But its something I have had to accept, as it happens all the time. My personal viewpoint on what a god should be differs from the author's.

And without doubt plenty of people died because Clark couldnt fly. But then, plenty of people die regardless of how much power he has. Superman does not save everyone.

It sounds like you have an ax to grind with the writer moreso than with the characters themselves however.

[americanwonder]

... Personally, any time a god shows up in any form of media and shows an ability to be out-done I find it doesnt quite wash. Are these gods or just Kryptonians? But its something I have had to accept, as it happens all the time. My personal viewpoint on what a god should be differs from the author's...

Good point. I don't mind that Hephy (or other gods here) are 'out-done;' for me, it's the way it was handled. Hephaestus jumping into a fight rather than use his forge to his advantage? Just can't buy into that. Hephy got punked by Azzarello in that scene.

It sounds like you have an ax to grind with the writer moreso than with the characters themselves however.

Only ax I have does not relate to this thread (Amazons). Here, I'm just being cheeky (are argumentative ). I don't think Diana's portrayal has been bad; but I don't think it's been very good either. All of her fights have been underwhelming. I don't think superhero fights are really Azzarello's strong-suit. Again, they aren't bad, but they aren't really good either (imo). For instance, Clark jumping into space is far better than any jumping about Diana has done thus far.

[WhitOro]

You call this flying? I call it just a pose. Superman is the one up in the air. The following page was just them stuck in a whirlwind of flying teeth. It was a vortex

Why is this thing that when Superman is the air and she's clearly at his side doing the exact same thing he's doing, he's the only flying while she's just... there?
Like JL7, he's flying into battle with a fist in front of him, classic Superman, she's at her side, doing the exact same thing, at the exact same height, with the exact same pose, yet she's the one "jumping".
They flew inside the vortex.

I'm not buying. He didn't think of it first only because the author controls the situation, and here, the author didn't want him thinking of it first. Sorry, I don't buy it. Poor showing, imo. Just doesn't ring true.

Oh god, what is it with this argument? I can't stand it, sorry.
Character are not alive, if the author doesn't make them do something, they don't do anything. If Azzarello didn't make he do anything, Wonder Woman would be still sleeping in London while Zola gets butchered.
Hephe looks like the kind of guy that would jump against something, he's bulky, monsterous and uses an hammer, he looks like the stereotypical barbarian. I don't see him thinking twice about something like this.

Only ax I have does not relate to this thread (Amazons). Here, I'm just being cheeky (are argumentative). I don't think Diana's portrayal has been bad; but I don't think it's been very good either. All of her fights have been underwhelming. I don't think superhero fights are really Azzarello's strong-suit. Again, they aren't bad, but they aren't really good either (imo). For instance, Clark jumping into space is far better than any jumping about Diana has done thus far.

Ok then, there's no real point of discussing preference.

"Expanding," eh?