Mythbusters: New52 Diana is Weak

[WhitOro]

I shouldn’t be doing this, nobody ever reads my wall of texts.

Wonder Woman powers have been one of the (many, many, many) points of controversy among the fans and non-fans of the title recently.
Words like “incompetent” “weak” and “under-powered” have been thrown around a lot. Truth is, these (like most) are pointless complains with no real fundaments.
It’s all a matter of perspective. Perspective people.

Let’s take the always perfect example of Superman.

Imagine Superman fighting a Big-Damn Robot in the middle of Metropolis. How would it go down? Lots of screaming, lots of yelling, lots of strong earth shattering punches, a lot of destruction around the scene, building collapsing, big explosions. A pretty epic confrontation, right? you can see the incredible powers confronting each other on the environment and you can really feel what each of the two is capable off.

Now picture the same battle, but in the middle of the desert. No buildings, no rocks, no mountains, no nothing for miles and miles and miles. It’s still a pretty big confrontation, but in the end, there’s nothing around them that can prove the strength they’re showing, so, in the end, the battle feels somewhat inferior and the two fighters look weaker by comparison.

Now back to Metropolis, but with Superman fighting three arm robbers. Do you think this fight would cause massive destruction? No. Do you think Superman is gonna use all his powers against these three douche-bags? No. So the battle would be pretty unimpressive (if there’s a battle), and you would get the impression that nothing was really done.

It’s all perspective. Changing the scenario and the enemy doesn’t change the character, nor his power set. What changes it’s his way of the character for dealing with the threat and the way we look at the overall conflict.
With that said, let’s go take a look at some of the biggest fights WW had up to this point.

1* Diana vs Centaurs
Location: the middle of nowhere. The enemies: two random monsters.
No building to destroy, no damage to be done, just a quick one on one.
WW is still fast enough to see and understand that an arrow is coming their way. Some said that she appeared weak, since the arrow threw her to the ground, but that's a mistake: The strength of the arrow didn’t throw her to the ground, she threw herself to it. Look at the angle in the page.
But, despite being on the ground and a centaur soons attacks her, she needs mere seconds to decide what to do, and those are all pretty elaborate ideas: not simply kill the two monsters, but save the girl, steal their weapons, she gives us great showing of aim and agility.
These are not enemies she needs to use her superpowers on, they’re barely a threat and she treats them so, still humiliating them while remaining completely unscathed.

2* Diana vs Aleka
This a fight against a normal human being, a trained warrior Amazon that is, but still a mortal with no known superpowers. Plus, is a weapon based fight on top of pillars (so Diana can’t fly, that would be cheap and dishonorable). Again, it’s no slugfest, it’s a battle of tactics and talent with weapons. Note also, that Diana treats it like a game. While Aleka snarls and grimaces with anger, Diana keeps a smile through the all things, Aleka chooses the sword, Diana a simple staff. She knows she can beat Aleka in a second (hell, during Strife assaults she practically does that without looking at her), and that’s what she does: the battle lasts four hits.
Diana gives Aleka a false sense of security, allowing her to take make the first move, and the second she decides to strike, the battle is over.

This is a fight of body language and fight of psychology. Diana smiling, Aleka going all the way to take her down, everything is on the art (a gift by the amazing narrative abilities of Cliff Chiang). Azzarello doesn’t use the “internal monologue” that we are all so used too, so we don’t see it, it’s not spelled out, but it’s like it was there from the beginning.



It’s not a fight that needs superpowers, it’s a fight that requires talent, skills and mind.

Interlude: Diana “vs” Strife
I made this discussion to address the reasons Diana is not incompetent, but I won’t shy away from the less “stellar” moments.
It happens sometimes, in the life of a superhero, that something might just go a little wrong. S**t happens folks.
Diana is incompetent and stupid, Strife just pulls her from the ground with no problems.
WW got caught by surprise. Strife is a freakin’ goddess, a powerful entity, not the cosplayers we had on the book history since before the relaunch. Yes, she got caught by surprise. Does that make her incompetent and weak?
Is Superman incompetent for letting Lex Luthor punch him or trap him? Is Batman incompetent for letting Darkseid zap him? Is Flash incompetent for slip on the ice created by Cap Cold?
Superheroes are not entirely invincible, this kind of stuff happens. There’s a name for perfect heroes that never fail and never do wrong and are invincible and undefeated for their entire story: Mary Sue.

3* Diana vs Poseidon
Diana is weak, the big blue-whale can trap her and then hit her and she can’t do anything about it.
WW went to the meeting with Poseidon to talk. To trick him. She wasn’t there to fight and she wasn’t there to harm him. She’s not giving opposition because she doesn’t want to, not because she can’t. she wants to bring Poseidon to have a civil discussion with Hades, you can’t do that if you maim him.
And when Poseidon hits her (after she freed herself with no particular difficulty) what does happen? Nothing. No bruises, no screams, no complains, it’s like a leaf touched her skin. In a matter of instants, she sees the two centaurs attacking once more. No problem

4* Diana vs Centaurs, round Two
Dian can’t fly, she uses the staff to jump and rescue Zola.
No. The use of the pole is just another proof of Diana quick-mind and intelligence. In a matter of seconds, she uses the staff to hit the centaur and while she’s at it, she jumps against the second-Centaur. And now, this is a showing of her superstrenght: I’ve always thought she just landed on the monster and squashed him, but now I realize that’s stupid. That’s not what’s going on: her legs are clean, it’s her hands that are dirty with blood.
That means, she ripped the centaur open with her bare hands. Now that’s strength.
(*cue to oooh Diana brutally slaughtered that poor innocent mindless-monster! She’s a brute*)

The Flight issue
New52 Diana can’t fly, the proofs are: you never see her doing it in her book / in Justice League Hal Jordan has to carry her around.
I say, bulls**t:
In JL5 It was an error of Jim Lee. How do I know that? Because he’s Jim Lee, and he does plenty of errors (in the previous issue he drew her costume in three different ways). Otherwise, how she goes from Washington to Metropolis in a matter of hours (the sky is darker in Metropolis)?
Also, you can clearly see her fly in Justice League Dark and Justice League #7 right at the side of Superman.

And in her book? One would argue that if she flies in the other books, she should fly in her own too, right? Right.
She over on the water in issue 5. Unless she’s the Messiah and she’s walking on it. You can see her “diving” in issue 6.
Again, it’s Azzarello take. From his own mouth:
Maybe I'm just using her ability to fly judiciously. She's using her ability to fly judiciously! I've been really trying to take some of the powers that she has that I think are redundancies in other characters and claim them back[…]
Flying is like the character monologue-boxes. Is something you see every time in a superhero book and Azzarello simply doesn’t use/shows because it’s redundant or repetitive. That doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Let’s go back to Superman: if an author decides to never use Kryptonite (thank god) during the course of his run, does that mean Superman is now immune from it? Does it mean Kryptonite doesn’t exist? Of course not. The same way if a writer never uses batragans during his 80-issue run of Batman, that doesn’t mean the crusader doesn’t have them anymore.

Conclusion
Diana isn’t weaker, nor has she lost powers. The truth is, Azzarello simply decided to go to a different route. Instead of classic big superhero thrown downs, Diana is involved in fights that require her to use her brain, her talents as a trained warrior and her imagination.
She doesn’t need to fly, she doesn’t need to use her superstrenght, punch an enemy across the state, destroy a building, cause massive collateral damage, her body doesn’t have to receive big hits, but that doesn’t mean she can’t do all that stuff.

She’s not weaker. She’s the same in a different setting.

[Outside_85]

You get a cookie for your hard work that sadly wont matter to some people :)

[DarkKnghtJared]

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

[CaptMagellan]

Awesome post! Whether people agree or not, they should at least acknowledge the work and support you put into your argument.

I happen to agree completely BTW.

[WhitOro]

You get a cookie for your hard work that sadly wont matter to some people :)

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Awesome post! Whether people agree or not, they should at least acknowledge the work and support you put into your argument.

I happen to agree completely BTW.

Thanks gentlemen, positive feedback is always appreciated.

[wagthedog]

In Justice League Dark she wasn't flying or hovering, and if that was the intent, the artist did not show it clearly. I saw it as her being lifted in the air by the force of the whirlwind of teeth.

I have the justice league issues and at no point did I see her fly in Justice League 7.

Who knows what the artist/authors intent was with Wonder Woman being depicted as walking on water in issue 5 (or was it 6)? We had Atkins as artist and his issues were less than stellar and confusing to some. I apprreciated Chiang a whole lot more (still don't like him) after Atkins 2 issue stint. Just our luck we get him back again in a few :-(

If we have to guess at over a half year in whether she can fly or not, you would have to understand why people, like me, get pissed off.

Just show it to us Azz!

[americanwonder]

More positive feedback - very fun and well-done post, WhitOro.

But, I don't agree.

Personally, I find Azzarello's fight scenes lacking; I don't think they are choreagraphed all that well. Also, Diana beating her opponents isn't all that impressive because her opponents haven't done anything that is all that impressive. Finally, judicious use of flight? Zola is in danger and Diana decides to take the slow way to get there? That don't make much sense to me.

You may flame me now. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

[WhitOro]

Ok, let's start with wagthedog.

I have the justice league issues and at no point did I see her fly in Justice League 7.

[wagthedog]

More positive feedback - very fun and well-done post, WhitOro.

But, I don't agree.

Personally, I find Azzarello's fight scenes lacking; I don't think they are choreagraphed all that well. Also, Diana beating her opponents isn't all that impressive because her opponents haven't done anything that is all that impressive. Finally, judicious use of flight? Zola is in danger and Diana decides to take the slow way to get there? That don't make much sense to me.

You may flame me now. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

Well, you do know that since the centaurs were able to wound Hermes makes that impressive--at least that is what others will say. Again, more of a plot device for Azz to harm Hermes instead of using his gifts (whatever his god abilities are, superspeed may not be one of his anymore) to get rid of the centaurs.

And Aleka who we assume to be of normal human standards fighting Diana is still less than impressive. Diana with her gifts of speed and strength (at least we know she probably has these powers, how much is yet to be determined) should be literally yawning while sparring with Aleka.

[wagthedog]

Ok, let's start with wagthedog.

I took that as her jumping into the fray. When I see sustained panels of her in the air, then I will concede the point. The fact that she was carpooled by Green Lantern lends more to the theory that she can't fly. Jim Lee may have made mistakes on her costume, but why the Green Lantern carpool?

[americanwonder]

Well, you do know that since the centaurs were able to wound Hermes makes that impressive--at least that is what others will say. Again, more of a plot device for Azz to harm Hermes instead of using his gifts (whatever his god abilities are, superspeed may not be one of his anymore) to get rid of the centaurs...

But Hermes hasn't done anything impressive (and I think he's in on the mischief, wanting to be wounded), so wounding him is not impressive.

eta: "GL carpool" = lol. But why are we blaming Jim Lee? She's hitches a ride a few pages before she "flies" in issue #7.

[WhitOro]

Personally, I find Azzarello's fight scenes lacking; I don't think they are choreagraphed all that well.

Well I don't really know how to convince you of the contrary, I think they're great, the Diana Aleka fight being a primary example. I can feel that a great effort in details as gone in the writing of the action scenes, they're too elaborate fro letting the artist just made up on the spot, it's not action-based you see soo very often "just go nust for the next five pages" that I get every time I opne an issue of Bendis' Avengers.

Also, Diana beating her opponents isn't all that impressive because her opponents haven't done anything that is all that impressive.

This could be a good issue, but an idea of danger and strenght is given by the character appears and actions.
The two centaurs had almost killed a God (Hermes), and Aleka looks bigger and physically more indimidating than Diana (Diana being already pretty big on her own) so on psychological level you see her as the under-dog. Of course, not all the advensary can be built up immediatly and these are not really "impressive" feats. Rarely you get superhero battles with random mooks that feel big in scope and impressive on their own. That why you need enstablished villains, and that's what Azza is doing. Guys like Apollo and Hades are being slowly been built to be bigger enemies for Diana, and she'll need the best of her to triumph them.

I see Apollo as the guy who needs a big superhero type battle to be defeated. I hope that will be the case.

Finally, judicious use of flight? Zola is in danger and Diana decides to take the slow way to get there? That don't make much sense to me.

I wouldn't call it the "slow-way" more like the lethal-way to get there, since the entire reason to grab the pole is to take care of the Male-Centaur so that when she arrives to Zola, she doesn't need to worry about the creature coming immediatly at her back. Zola was still under the bus and she needed time to kill the Female-Centaur and take the girl from under of the vehicle. Everything is happening very quickly, and she uses her wits to take care of the two creatures.

More positive feedback - very fun and well-done post, WhitOro.
You may flame me now. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

I do not flame, and thanks for the compliments.

I took that as her jumping into the fray.

Come on now, does that look like jumping? She's practically in the same position as Superman.

[wagthedog]

QUOTE=wagthedog;14990409]I took that as her jumping into the fray.[/QUOTE]
Come on now, does that look like jumping? She's practically in the same position as Superman.[/QUOTE]

Again, when I see sustained panels of her flying, I will concede the point. I love Jim Lee as an artist, but this was a fill in and as such, I am not sure how to interpret this image. Atkins did us no favors when he guest stinted for 2 issues. Maybe Chiang would have shown us what she was really doing on the water, instead of us still not knowing.

I mean, come on, how hard is it for them to conclusively show us that Diana can still fly? Really, how hard is it? I get the feeling that Azz hasn't determined what he wants yet and as such the artists on the other books aren't sure. Maybe some of these artists thinks she can fly, try to show it that way but not in a conclusive manner so as not to pigeonhole Azz in a corner.

[SteveGus]

Well argued, though I'm still waiting for the real superheroic stuff to start showing back up again. I still think she has been depowered; if nothing else she used to have one of the better hero bases out there, and was second in command of a substantial military force of metas. But the book has been rather slow at showing her in action in which her powers can be put to the test.

And she's really flying there because the boots are red.

[americanwonder]

Well I don't really know how to convince you of the contrary, I think they're great, the Diana Aleka fight being a primary example...

This is the best fight of the bunch, my personal fav - but, it's just family playtime. Sure, it's family playtime Amazons-style, but playtime, nonetheless, with nothing on the line. Would prefer the centaur fights to be done at least as well as this one.

... I wouldn't call it the "slow-way" more like the lethal-way to get there, since the entire reason to grab the pole is to take care of the Male-Centaur so that when she arrives to Zola, she doesn't need to worry about the creature coming immediatly at her back...

I find the pole-vault smackdown a little too cartoon comical for the "horror story" atmosphere. It may be lethal, but it's goofy (imo). It's not entirely bad, I just don't find it all that impressive (compared to say, fighting Superman in Sacrifice). The art didn't help either, imo.

Btw, you don't have to convince anyone - we all like what we like and don't like what we don't. For the most part, I think the story has been pretty good thus far (with some big complaints - I'm looking at you issue #7), but I'm happy to see people enjoy this run more than I am.