My Opinion - Take It Or Leave It!

[Mr. Rice]

I think what suicide "acceptance" eventually leads to is euthanasia. The argument of which is right...a mercy kill or all life is sacred. Doctors have an oath that they will not take a life and will do everything to preserve it. But what if someone is in so much pain with continued life meaning prolonged pain, is the right thing to necessarily keep that person alive? What if that person were to give permission to "pull the plug"? Is that necessarily the wrong thing to do?

BTW...taking care of a sick girlfriend? Good stuff.

Oh yeah, I believe in giving a person the right to pull the plug. If it's their time, it's their time, even if they haven't punched the time clock yet. But it has to be their decision. I don't want any sick doctor trying to be an "angel."

[Deep_Sleeper]

I think David Aja is a modern day combination of Dave Mazzuchelli and Jim Steranko.

Aja has the anotomical grasp that Mazzuchelli effortlessly displayed on his work for Daredevil and Batman and the kind of pop art design sense that Steranko brought to Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD books.

Discuss.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Anyone else find J. Michael Straczynski's stuff to be better than Neil Gaiman's? I think I've sampled a very small portion of Neil Gaiman's stuff but from what I have tried, I'm tempted to say that JMS is way better than Gaiman. Maybe Gaimen's stuff is too esoteric for me or maybe I haven't read the right books by Gaiman, but it just seems to be really, really boring. I read 1602. Anyone still remember that book? No, I didn't think you did. His Eternals with John Romita Jr. misfired enormously and he hasn't done anything worth mentioning since Sandman.

Or is it because JMS's stuff is commerially viable and palatable?

Discuss.

[Matt Algren]

You are incorrect.

[coveredinbees]

of course I remember 1602. I like Eternals, except Romita Jr. I'm still working through Sandman, but I like it. I loved Black Orchis and his Books of Magic miniseries was really good. The series that followed is so great. American Gods is one of my favorite books. I haven't had time to read Anansi Boys, yet, but I can't wait. I liked the Graveyard Book. Fragile Things is a good collection of his short stories. Here's a great one: http://www.bitchwick.com/amacker/bean/price.html

I like JMS, too

[Deep_Sleeper]

So I'm checking out some articles on the main CBR page and I noticed some tweets from Erik Larsen about the whole DC/Alan Moore/Watchman/Before Watchman thing.

I consider Watchman to be one of the finest crafted piece of writing...period. Including movies, TV shows, novels (I've read very few novels, so maybe I shouldn't have it in here), other comics. It's just beautifully written, beautifully illustrated, and beautifully structured. Every aspect of the book just resonates. The issue where Dr. Manhattan is on Mars and you get the history of the character...it's just encapsulates what makes that book great.

I've found myself in a weird dilemma where I think the original story is absolutely perfect, yet I'm very curious to see what the new writers and artists will be coming up with. I'm very eager to read JMS's Manhattan and I'm very curious to see the J.G. Jones version of Comedian, Jae Lee version of Ozymandias, etc. Naturally, I'm all for creators rights and I found myself agreeing with a lot of what Larsen said. However, I'm also very much compelled to read about these characters and what their separate journeys were, before and after the Keane act. I think one of the main reasons I'm so looking forward to reading this is that I like the creators they've got on the books. JMS alone makes me want to read the book. My prediction is...Before Watchman will be a big success. It'll sell a lot of copies and I think a lot of readers and critics will be pleasantly surprised by how good the books will be. I think a lot of people will find themselves in a similar position that I am in, where they want to support Moore in their sense of justice for creators rights, but may ultimately fall prey to their curiousity of these characters and the stories.

My question behind all of this is...if the same creators were to come together on another project, would it have the same amount of attention? If all the writers and artists came together to create something new and said that this will be something that will amaze readers and leave a mark on the comic world in ways that hasn't been felt in a long time, would all of us pay attention?

I think I know the answer, but I leave it to you all to discuss.

[coveredinbees]

Probably not, but I might buy it. Atm, I'm not interested in Before Watchmen.

[Mr. Rice]

Been busy with research papers and stuff, and I should be doing work right now, but I wanted to respond.

First off, I don't like JMS. This is based solely off of what I've read of his Spider-Man (enough), all the stuff I've heard about his Superman and Wonder Woman, and his participation in Before Watchmen.

His Spider-Man was bad. It had great art, and JMS has a good voice for Peter, but the plots were lame. he should've stuck closer to previous Spider-Man mythology, instead of creating all the "totem" (i believe it was called) crap. His Super-Man sounded like garbage to me, and I never want to read it. If it wasn't for a pair of pants, his Wonder Woman would be such a non-issue (lack of relevance is a fate worse than poor quality, but certainly indicative of it).

In a comic discussion club I used to frequent, one of the members would bombastically claim that Gaiman's Sandman was just a retread of themes from Alan Moore's Swampthing. I've always kinda wanted to read Sandman and Swampthing, but have the money for neither, so I can't add to that conversation, but thought I'd bring it up. Actually, I haven't read ANY Gaiman, but I hold him in much higher regard than JMS, simply because of his allure as a story teller of modern myths and legends (that sounds pompous, and I understand it holds no value).

So,no. I like Gaiman more, partially by process of elimination, partially because of reputation.

I don't think I can added anything new to a conversation about Before Watchmen, just add my own opinion, which will just retread pre-established points I'm sure someone else has already made.

Before Watchmen seems like DC is admitting they have no new ideas. Don't trying and support a writer's foray into a new story, take a thirty-year-old story and add redundance.
The comic medium is made for telling new, exciting ideas, but the major publishers seem to rely on retread after retread. Before Watchmen feels like the Pinnacle of this.
I wish the trend would stop. I don't want to be forty, reading AvX 17: This Time Stuff Will Really Change. I want to see fresh writers conveying relevant and thought provoking themes.

And that JMS is a part of this makes it all the more bad eggs.

Larsen is a champ. I hope Savage Dragon never ends.

Long post, but an analogy for Before Watchmen:

You have a pinata (Watchmen). It is glorious. You see its bright colors for the first time, you have fun whacking it with a stick, eventually bursting the paper mache craft, spilling the candy everywhere. You then enjoy eating the candy (reading Watchmen start to finish). Then, you are left with the shattered rainbow donkey, frills of paper and all, but still finished. Then some guy comes and sprinkles a bunch of glitter on this shattered pinata, and tries to convince you it's worth paying attention to again (Before Watchmen is a pinata cadaver with glitter on it). You have the fond memories of the candy and the whacking stick, you don't need sparkly pieces of cardboard; you want to move on to another pinata, just waiting to be burst open.

But Jae Lee's art is really cool.

My longest post ever. Hope it doesn't go to waste.

[Deep_Sleeper]

Mr. Rice...let me open by saying I appreciate your opinions in this thread. Even if we are in disagreement over anything, I feel you will look at things with thought and consideration.

Now that I am done blowing you, how's your girlfriend? :)

On the topic of your brushes with JMS...please, please try Supreme Power and Thor. Yes, Supreme Power may represent everything you find wrong about Before Wathman (re-tread/re-imagining of the Squadron Supreme), but I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I'd say give the first trade a try. As for Thor...Thor is a character I really, really do not know much about nor really cared about. However, I read the first two trades on the basis that Olivier Coipel was drawing it and loving it. I have a bunch of things that I got today that I will be reading, but suffice to say that I read all the Supreme Power issues a month ago and look forward to reading through the first two trades of Thor again once I'm done with the new stuff. JMS's writing seems to have that effect on me.

BTW, I read his Spider-Man books and while it was good, it wasn't that memorable.

Glad you like Jae Lee art. How cool will it be to see him doing interiors after a seemingly long absence? I think his last interior work was during the Dark Tower stuff, right?

New opinion:

Anyone else tired of idiots? I know I am.

I was just looking through some stuff online (big surprise that you find idiots online) and ran into some jerk-off talking about how Resident Evil 6 was going to kill the RE franchise. I think his comment was "Bye bye, Resident Evil. Hello Gears of War!"

Reading stuff like that, you just know that this guy probably doesn't even play any more RE games and is just a back-seat driver/arm-chair director.

Same type of idiots plague this board. The most common ones are the ones that want the good old days of comic books back, when the Avengers or Justice League were being written "right" and the current people in charge of publishing have lost their way. They talk about how they'd read about so-and-so character, if they only released a new book of that character or if so-and-so creators left the books, they'd be ready to come back.

You just know that these are the same people that are either not going to ever buy the books, no matter what changes occur or are secretly buying the books and just complaining about it. These are also the same idiots that are fuming and frothing for new and different, but wants it from the old-guards that have been publishing the same type of content based on the same characters for 50+ years.

Yes, this rant is spurred by people who are constantly bitching about Brian Michael Bendis on Avengers, Matt Fraction on anything, Hawkeye on 17 different books, whatever!

These are the same people who will refuse to try books like Saga or the Walking Dead or Invincible or Thunderbolts...or any number of great books that are being published that will soon be cancelled due to lack of support.

Stop being idiots! Please. It's gone on long enough.

[coveredinbees]

lol, nice. I read Saga and Thunderbolts, and I hate BMB's Avengers, Fraction on anything and Hawkeye.

[Mr. Rice]

Thanks. Disagreement is the spice of life.

She's okay. We think it was food poisoning.

I'v wanted to try his Thor, but I can't get over the issue where he hands Iron Man his ass. Not because Iron Man should've won, but why didn't he go kick the crap out of Mister Fantastic too? Just seemed like JMS has a grudge against Tony, but who didn't around Civil War (Me.)? I'll look into Supreme Power. Never got into Squadron Supreme, so it wouldn't be personal.

The only Jae Lee interiors I've seen were his in Executioner's Song, and they were marvelous. His covers during Utopia were the thing that caught my attention though.

I don't have TOO much to say on the new topic, except that I want comics to constantly be moving forward. All the great old stuff is still there, and it's still respected and enjoyed today, but the new stuff shouldn't emulate the past, it should create a future. Not saying I don't enjoy the occasional throwbacks, or creators imitating classic comics, but they should do it in reverence to the past, not in lust of it.

Coming from a huge fan of Fraction, ignorant hater of Bendis, lover of Remender (Hawkeye in Secret Avengers? Whatever you want Mr. Rick!), and a huge fan of Thunderbolts, thanks to Parker

[Spike-X]

Chiming in on Before Watchmen -

Creatively, it's completely unnecessary. Everything we need to know about those characters is between the front and back covers of the book. The rest is fanfic.

I'd expect nothing less from DC, who seem unable to resist, scorpion-and-the-snake-like, from fucking Alan Moore over at every turn.

I'm very disappointed in the creators choosing to take part in this, many of whom I had a great deal of respect for.

[Mr. Rice]

Chiming in on Before Watchmen -

Creatively, it's completely unnecessary. Everything we need to know about those characters is between the front and back covers of the book. The rest is fanfic.

I'd expect nothing less from DC, who seem unable to resist, scorpion-and-the-snake-like, from fucking Alan Moore over at every turn.

I'm very disappointed in the creators choosing to take part in this, many of whom I had a great deal of respect for.

There has to be a ton of money in it for them, though. I don't think many of them really agree with the project, but the money and publicity that will come with this would be hard for any creator to turn down.

[Spike-X]

There has to be a ton of money in it for them, though. I don't think many of them really agree with the project, but the money and publicity that will come with this would be hard for any creator to turn down.

I do understand that part. Comicbook creators gotta eat, just like the rest of us.

[Mr. Rice]

I do understand that part. Comicbook creators gotta eat, just like the rest of us.

To me though, it's not "gotta eat." They're all well paid creators. This is more like "gotta buy a new golden bathtub for my dime baths" kinda money.