Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 168
  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    But it was too powerful and too unpredictable a thing to create in the first place. They made a horrible monstrosity that they weren't fully in control of, I think they're responsible for anyone it kills. Hill is just a middleman, using a defective tool that Tony made. And it was Tony who took Thor's hair to make the clone, so he originated the scheme.
    I don't think Clor was THAT strong. He just shot lightning and was super-strong as far as I remember. Vostagg broke him in like 1 hit, right? His major thing was that he looked like Thor to scare people, not that he had Thor's power.

    Tony designed him not to kill, but the design had a flaw. AKA an accident. The Iron Man armor itself is more dangerous and versatile than Clor. It has had an AI, depending on the iteration. It has gone nuts and gotten violent... should he not have built it at all? The X-Men's danger room had weapons and a bit of AI to run simulations, and it ended up becoming sentient and killing a few people... should that never have been built?

    It's comics. If something looks like you could fit an AI in there, it's going to go nuts and kill people.
    The problem with Clor wasn't that he was powerful and his programming was flawed, it was that cloning your dead friends is in terrible taste.
    Last edited by Wren; 04-09-2012 at 08:32 PM.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,235

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    I don't think Clor was THAT strong. He just shot lightning and was super-strong as far as I remember. Vostagg broke him in like 1 hit, right? His major thing was that he looked like Thor to scare people, not that he had Thor's power.

    Tony designed him not to kill, but the design had a flaw. AKA an accident. The Iron Man armor itself is more dangerous and versatile than Clor. It has had an AI, depending on the iteration. It has gone nuts and gotten violent... should he not have built it at all? The X-Men's danger room had weapons and a bit of AI to run simulations, and it ended up becoming sentient and killing a few people... should that never have been built?

    It's comics. If something looks like you could fit an AI in there, it's going to go nuts and kill people.
    The problem with Clor wasn't that he was powerful and his programming was flawed, it was that cloning your dead friends is in terrible taste.
    It was powerful enough to kill most of the people on Cap's side if it went out of control, obviously. It was kicking their asses for a while. And it was dangerous because no one in that conflict was expecting deadly force. And Volstagg was losing to Ragnarok, although the real Thor easily wrecked it.

    I think the distinction that makes Ragnarok worse is that clone is different than an AI. An AI that slips your command could be considered an accident. A clone is going to have its own unpredictable thoughts and free will by default, so making one a weapon is much more reckless.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 04-09-2012 at 09:02 PM.

  3. #33
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    46,312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    But it was too powerful and too unpredictable a thing to create in the first place. They made a horrible monstrosity that they weren't fully in control of, I think they're responsible for anyone it kills. Hill is just a middleman, using a defective tool that Tony and the others made. And it was Tony who took Thor's hair to make the clone, so he originated the scheme.

    I think the Ultron thing is different. I don't think Hank intentionally built Ultron as a weapon to use against his friends, although of course that did happen. He was just trying to create a really neat thinking robot and he made the mistake of using his screwed up brain to give it life.
    oh wow. whatever man. Ultron is worse. Ragnarok had a killswitch installed. Reed shut him down with a whisper. Pym was 1000x more reckless.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  4. #34
    Senior Member Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,235

    Default

    Okay, yeah, I fully agree that Pym was reckless and stupid, but I still think intent matters here. IIRC Ultron was never meant to be a weapon the way Ragnarok was. He was just an AI experiment that went horribly, horribly wrong. And Ragnarok's killswitch was only useful after he went out of control and killed somebody, so I'm kind of thinking maybe not making unstable super-powered cyborg clones of your friends to beat up your friends is a better way to go.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 04-09-2012 at 09:09 PM.

  5. #35
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Orleans
    Posts
    14,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    doesn't matter Stark still put it al lin motion if he didn't send Hulk to the planet many of those deaths would have been averted, and the planet did eventually get destroyed which happened as a result of Tony sending Hulk there. In the end all roads lead back to Tony.
    That's totally stupid, and Tony didn't put anything in motion. You can't blame someone for something like that. There are too many other personal choices involved. There's one person to blame: Miek.

    If I buy you a new refrigerator and you somehow manage to turn the sucker over onto yourself and you die, I'm not responsible for it.
    Last edited by The Black Guardian; 04-09-2012 at 09:18 PM.
    COEXIST | NOEXIST

    ShadowcatMagikДаякѕтая Sto☈mDustMercury MonetRachelCipher
    MagnetoNightcrawlerColossusRockslideBeastXavier

  6. #36
    Senior Member Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,235

    Default

    What about M.O.D.O.G? Did that die? Tony threw it into space, so I assume it did. It was designed only for genocide, though, so it deserved it.

  7. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    It was powerful enough to kill most of the people on Cap's side if it went out of control, obviously. It was kicking their asses for a while. And it was dangerous because no one in that conflict was expecting deadly force. And Volstagg was losing to Ragnarok, although the real Thor easily wrecked it.

    I think the distinction that makes Ragnarok worse is that clone is different than an AI. An AI that slips your command could be considered an accident. A clone is going to have its own unpredictable thoughts and free will by default, so making one a weapon is much more reckless.
    Tony wasn't expecting deadly force either. It was an accident. I don't have the book in front of me so I'm not going to get into how powerful it was... as far as I remember it was built not to be "Thor" but to look like Thor to be scary.

    As for AI vs Clone, first I think it was a cyborg, (partially?) programmed. It had mechanical parts and Tony/Reed aren't biologists so I assume they engineered something rather than bio-engineering. Secondly, AIs are not predictable. Even simple AIs that we make today "learn", they're not "built" in the "do X if Y" sense, they do a lot of guessing. Having a clone you can cut open and train is the same as having an AI, but the clone has electric impulse levels and the AI has probabilities. Either way calculating what it's thinking is really hard.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Shawn Hopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,235

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    Tony wasn't expecting deadly force either. It was an accident. I don't have the book in front of me so I'm not going to get into how powerful it was... as far as I remember it was built not to be "Thor" but to look like Thor to be scary.

    As for AI vs Clone, first I think it was a cyborg, (partially?) programmed. It had mechanical parts and Tony/Reed aren't biologists so I assume they engineered something rather than bio-engineering. Secondly, AIs are not predictable. Even simple AIs that we make today "learn", they're not "built" in the "do X if Y" sense, they do a lot of guessing. Having a clone you can cut open and train is the same as having an AI, but the clone has electric impulse levels and the AI has probabilities. Either way calculating what it's thinking is really hard.
    It was a clone created from a lock of Thor's hair upgraded with cybernetics. But my thought on this is that it was alive, that's the main thing. An AI might develop free will under certain random circumstances, but a clone is a living thing that should have it by default and then you're into the trickier and more reckless area of suppressing existing free will. So they took this barely controlled monster, let it go at their pals, and then acted surprised when it got out of hand.

    The death wasn't really an accident. It was stone cold murder on Ragnarok's part. And that was the Illuminati's fault for being so arrogant they thought they could control something so inherently wrong. It's their big moment of hubris in the book.
    Last edited by Shawn Hopkins; 04-09-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  9. #39
    Avengers Assemble! Telos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    2,113

    Default

    The Ragnarok thing is a bit grey, but I stand by my assertation that Tony Stark did not kill Bill Foster. The Ragnarok cyborg - which was not as powerful as Thor - was designed to fight the anti-registration Avengers team, but was never given commands to use lethal force. That was an accident.

    Blaming Tony Stark for the shuttle explosion is just stupid. It wasn't his fault at all. He sent the Hulk away in a shuttle, and somebody else's tampering with the shuttle caused it to explode.

  10. #40
    Elder Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    12,670

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    oh wow. whatever man. Ultron is worse. Ragnarok had a killswitch installed. Reed shut him down with a whisper. Pym was 1000x more reckless.
    So cloning a God as a weapon is worse than running some AI tests on your own brainwaves?

    Ragnarok, frankly, is easily the worse of the two. Tony knew he was creating a weapon. He created said slave weapon out of a living being. More than that, he created a weapon out of the flesh and blood of one of his best friends, and pointed it at other super heroes.

    Frankly, I'm still amazed that they haven't reconned it away as mind-control by some villain.

  11. #41
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro/Brazil
    Posts
    7,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    He also killed the Carnellian Ambassador. But dude had it coming.
    Beat me to it.

    On to the topic at hand: Being a deeply pratical and pragmatic person, Tony is not as averse to using deadly force as someone like Cap or Hawkeye are (or, at least, useds to be, prior the Quesada/Bendis years). However, seeing that Iron Man was born out of the sacrifice of someone else's life, Tony also used to put life in a much higher regard then he is shown nowadays. Deadly force, for him, was always a last resort, however, it was not also something that, when absolutely necessary, he would hesitate in using.

    Peace
    Last edited by Nomads1; 04-10-2012 at 05:34 AM.

  12. #42
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro/Brazil
    Posts
    7,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyStark1012 View Post
    Don't forget that they were holding Bethany Cabe hostage as to why Iron Man went there.
    Wrong story. Gremlin died during Armour Wars I, when Tony, unprovokedly, invaded Russia to disable the Crimson Dynamo and the Titanium Man's armours. Bethany Cabe had nothing to do with that story.

    Peace

  13. #43
    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    16,494

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    doesn't matter Stark still put it al lin motion if he didn't send Hulk to the planet many of those deaths would have been averted, and the planet did eventually get destroyed which happened as a result of Tony sending Hulk there. In the end all roads lead back to Tony.
    Tony didn't send Hulk to Sakaar. He sent Hulk to an uninhabited garden planet. Hulk woke up early and knocked the ship off course, through a wormhole.
    Expletive Deleted

  14. #44
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    23,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by destro View Post
    Not really, it was an accident. Also he was a wanted spy and criminal. I'm not really defending Iron Man, but I would not consider it murder. More like manslaughter.
    Felony Murder is when you kill someone in the commission of a felony or in most states if someone dies as a result of that felony, even if that was not your intent.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  15. #45
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Delaware
    Posts
    23,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    hardly. Maria Hill gave the order to deploy Ragnarok. and there's no proof whatsoever that Stark knew the secret command to deactivate him. that was on Reed. he didn't act quickly enough.
    Who gave the Slave to the psychopath?
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •