Two Practical Questions About the Amazons' Murderous Villainy

[Fate's Faith]

I'm curious to know just what you think the title is promising?

Just the Amazons alone. I've already stated I'd like to see something similiar to the Atlantis Chronicles that detailed that fabled city's history for Aquaman. And with the Amazons being immortal, its a story where the characters stay the same but the world around them that changes. Then you move to the gods and their relationships between each other. Since some seem to take delight in referring to Diana as sister and such, I'm curious how many demi-gods there are and what have they been up to in the world before Diana left Paradise Island. I want to know more about Diana's origin. Not where she came from but how and why she left Paradise Island. That's just a few questions I look forward to see answered. And didn't even touch on what's to become of the child Zola is carrying.

[chastmastr]

A chunk of society goes "missing" for at least nine months and Diana isn't going to notice? Do you hide the kids until they are fully grown?

Maybe they implant their fertilized eggs into the men, who--drained of life at the bottom of the sea--become food for the hatching larval versions of the Amazons in some ghastly Lovecraftian way. The Amazons are the Trench!! The Amazons are the Trench!! Tell everyone before it's too---URK!!!

(Okay, that last one sounds rather dubious.)

[SteveGus]

It's clear he's writing WW as a suspense thriller in some sense; and on the strength of 100 Bullets, which I haven't read but everyone praises, he knows how to manage a complex suspense plot. So I have a basic confidence it'll all work out.

Even so, comics writers seem to have a lunatic belief that they can drop an enigmatic hint in issue #1 and expect their readers will still be interested when they wrap it up for the trade paperback in issue #6. Don't count on that, guys, especially when you're selling around 25,000.

In this case, Brian and Cliff have sold me on the deal that this is the story of Zola, mother of the next monarch of Olympus, as revealed via Wonder Woman as viewpoint character. I need to see more of Zola, and fast. She needs to be a fully developed character by the time she has to make the critical decisions.

This comes down to one of my problems with the book purely as literature. If Azzarello has been entrusted with the job of constructing a supporting cast and a world for Wonder Woman, he's done a poor job.

It isn't that I am adamantly opposed to change. I was prepared to accept Diana as the daughter of Zeus. If anything, she's moved up in the world. The malevolence of the gods is well played, if unoriginal: since Perez, divine intrigue has always been present in the book, and was especially prominent in the Luke and Rucka runs.

But we've seen her Gotham, her Metropolis ruined, her people revealed as barbarous pirates. Two thirds of her reliable supporting cast has been erased --- the only reliable supporting cast she's had since Perez took Steve and Etta mostly out of the picture, establishing one of his worse precedents. I might have taken this better if they'd been replaced with something new and interesting. Zola and Lennox, as characters, are not that; and in fact they seem mostly ciphers at this point. I don't like what he did to the Amazons. If you think they were lame characters, do you really think Zola or Lennox or any of the gods are improvements?

[americanwonder]

Maybe they implant their fertilized eggs into the men, who--drained of life at the bottom of the sea--become food for the hatching larval versions of the Amazons in some ghastly Lovecraftian way. The Amazons are the Trench!! The Amazons are the Trench!! Tell everyone before it's too---URK!!!

(Okay, that last one sounds rather dubious.)

lol. I feel bad for liking your story. :(

[Fate's Faith]

Well you missed out on a lot and it invalidates your argument because you haven't read enough to know whether or not thought was needed.

I searched and the last issue I bought regularly was issue #72. I, of course, was reading Wonder Woman years before Crisis (its where I first encountered the Huntress in backups of the issues) Issue #223 may have been the one where I started picking it regularly but I do remember her depowered era (and the title ran till issue #329). Of course, I didn't get each comic every single month, I was still a kid (and the fact many years she was published bi-monthly). I'm still confused why the third series jumped to the 600s when no run reached close to that. Rucka didn't start on the title till #195 btw. Not sure I could have read 100+ issues to get to the 'good' stuff. I don't think I need to justify my views because I'm unfamiliar with the character. I think its interesting in the discussion that Wonder Woman became a feminist icon back during the 70s (during her unpowered years I believe) well before Perez which people seem to keep pointing to as imporant to keep around for that status. Back when Hippolyte was a habitual liar to Diana and all Amazons would lose their powers if a man ever step foot on Paradise Island. When you had a more advanced Amazon culture and in which Marston's ideas had long ago fell by the wayside. In which a new contest was held and Diana lost her status as Wonder Woman long before this Artemis person for two issues.

[Maximum Impact]

Just the Amazons alone. I've already stated I'd like to see something similiar to the Atlantis Chronicles that detailed that fabled city's history for Aquaman. And with the Amazons being immortal, its a story where the characters stay the same but the world around them that changes. Then you move to the gods and their relationships between each other. Since some seem to take delight in referring to Diana as sister and such, I'm curious how many demi-gods there are and what have they been up to in the world before Diana left Paradise Island. I want to know more about Diana's origin. Not where she came from but how and why she left Paradise Island. That's just a few questions I look forward to see answered. And didn't even touch on what's to become of the child Zola is carrying.

Okay, cool. That sounds more like a team book than Wonder Woman to me though. The part about "the characters stay the same but the world around them that changes" makes me want to suggest that you read "the Shade". His immortality is for me one of the main draws to his series, plus it's much better written than Azzarello's WW and every bit as dark. Unlike this however the darkness doesn't cling to you and make you want to take a shower after reading an issue. What I mean by that is there's a hopefulness in the Shade that balances it out, but Wonder Woman is drowning in a sea of negativity that's cloying and leaves me with a bad aftertaste.

[Hamdinger]

It's a giant plot hole, be careful that you don't fall in or you could tear the fabric of the space/time continuum.

Ohhhh its so hypnotic... and true too!

[Maximum Impact]

I searched and the last issue I bought regularly was issue #72. I, of course, was reading Wonder Woman years before Crisis (its where I first encountered the Huntress in backups of the issues) Issue #223 may have been the one where I started picking it regularly but I do remember her depowered era (and the title ran till issue #329). Of course, I didn't get each comic every single month, I was still a kid (and the fact many years she was published bi-monthly). I'm still confused why the third series jumped to the 600s when no run reached close to that. Rucka didn't start on the title till #195 btw. Not sure I could have read 100+ issues to get to the 'good' stuff. I don't think I need to justify my views because I'm unfamiliar with the character. I think its interesting in the discussion that Wonder Woman became a feminist icon back during the 70s (during her unpowered years I believe) well before Perez which people seem to keep pointing to as imporant to keep around for that status. Back when Hippolyte was a habitual liar to Diana and all Amazons would lose their powers if a man ever step foot on Paradise Island. When you had a more advanced Amazon culture and in which Marston's ideas had long ago fell by the wayside. In which a new contest was held and Diana lost her status as Wonder Woman long before this Artemis person for two issues.

Yes, you're speaking of Orana. See to me the possible connection of Orana to Artemis is fascinating. I want a Wonder Woman series that respects past continuity and explores it. Azzarello's version throws everything out -including my favorite supporting characters- in exchange for repulsive gods I don't care about.

The series jumped to 600 due to a write in campaign that suggested the numbering be changed to more accurately reflect Wonder Woman's vast history. If you add volumes 1 (pre-Crisis), to volumes 2 (the Perez post-Crisis reboot) and 3 (the post-Crisis Heinberg reboot) you have around 600 issues.

[Fate's Faith]

You don't think that somewhere, sometime, the daughters are going to find out?

Keep in mind, its every 33 years. Not a nightly ritual but in that time, who knows how its handled. The originals may have several they participate in and they disappearing one night isn't that strange. I'm not in favor of the idea, just its possible.

I don't see any indication that Diana doesn't know that men existed. And because she'd never seen one, that seems all the more reason she (and other daughters) would be asking more and more questions.

I think the inclusion of Steve Trevor (assuming the origin follows he crashed on the island and Diana ended up returning him to his home) still fits that he's the first man she's ever encountered. And very likely something new to her. Going with the original (since nothing has been provided to say different) I think the television show handled this when Diana and another Amazon found Steve, the other Amazon didn't know what he was.

A chunk of society goes "missing" for at least nine months and Diana isn't going to notice? Do you hide the kids until they are fully grown?

Again, we don't know the workings of their society but keep in mind this is every 33 years (is this not getting through or something). If she's only in her twenties, then there isn't a need to separate the mothers from the rest during her lifetime unless she was born in the middle of the cycle. I've no idea if they do keep the children separate from the rest of the society. I was just putting it forward that until more is known that could be a possiblility. Its not that outlandish idea as there have been many stories in which children were separated from their parents for instruction. The mothering instinct may be discouraged here. Which might explain the use of the robe figures removing the male children. But we've no idea since all we've seen of Paradise Island still seems to be an island without children.

[americanwonder]

Keep in mind, its every 33 years...

Yes, I get that. I got it the first time I read the comic. But, to me, it means the "lie" has a shelf-life of 33 yrs at best.

Socialization is the gradual education of children into what that society hopes they will become. In my experience, most (if not all) societies gradually introduce key elements of what it means to be a member of that society (eg, what that society thinks is "good" and "bad," what rituals you are expected to participate in, etc). Yet, for Diana to be so "shocked," it seems that she had no indication.

Moreover, Diana isn't just any daughter - she's the daughter of the queen. There are responsibilies and expectations of her. At some point mom's going to have to have a chat with her. If this is such a big part of Amazon society, I would think that mom wouldn't wait for the 33 b-day to dump it all on her. Just doesn't ring true.

[Fate's Faith]

Okay, cool. That sounds more like a team book than Wonder Woman to me though. The part about "the characters stay the same but the world around them that changes" makes me want to suggest that you read "the Shade". His immortality is for me one of the main draws to his series, plus it's much better written than Azzarello's WW and every bit as dark. Unlike this however the darkness doesn't cling to you and make you want to take a shower after reading an issue. What I mean by that is there's a hopefulness in the Shade that balances it out, but Wonder Woman is drowning in a sea of negativity that's cloying and leaves me with a bad aftertaste.

I take it you haven't read Atlantis Chronicles. Written by Peter David. While I can't say its an engrossing story, I did enjoy how it managed to weave a clearer picture of Atlantis from Arion to Arthur. And in the end it probably didn't play any part in stories afterwards. I am reading the Shade but its not what Atlantis Chronicles was. I would just be interested in seeing the Amazons through their history from the beginnings, coming to the island, everything we've seen till Diana was born. While I appreciate you don't care for the title, I don't understand this 'sea of negativity' comment. So far, I wouldn't say its a standard comic. There's no single foe she needs to vanquish for this arc till she gets to the next. I think that's a good thing. She has obsticales in her path and none are easily pushed aside so she has to forge her way through and I expect she will do so displaying all the qualities we've come to expect from Diana. But I do look forward to a few standard foes. In this setting they should be far more interesting than before. I think the Cheetah would fit easily in this as she already has (the current one) a somewhat mystical quality.

[Fate's Faith]

Yes, I get that. I got it the first time I read the comic. But, to me, it means the "lie" has a shelf-life of 33 yrs at best.

Socialization is the gradual education of children into what that society hopes they will become. In my experience, most (if not all) societies gradually introduce key elements of what it means to be a member of that society (eg, what that society thinks is "good" and "bad," what rituals you are expected to participate in, etc). Yet, for Diana to be so "shocked," it seems that she had no indication.

Moreover, Diana isn't just any daughter - she's the daughter of the queen. There are responsibilies and expectations of her. At some point mom's going to have to have a chat with her. If this is such a big part of Amazon society, I would think that mom wouldn't wait for the 33 b-day to dump it all on her. Just doesn't ring true.

I could agree the lie only has a 33 year shelve life at best. But you might find the answer to your first point that Diana is shocked to learn this information in your second. Again, I have to point out where are the children of Paradise Island? We know they go on these raids every 33 years to bear children yet have we seen any? Why not? I've put forth my ideas of why we aren't seeing them present (they are secluded or grown). If they are grown, it seems they do participate with normal Amazon ideas (given the Amazons 'greeting' of Hermes) so perhaps Diana was sheltered from this information. I got the feeling that those calling her Clay were most likely raised with her. Obviously, she wasn't part of the 'group' since the nickname didn't seem like a playful one. I suppose we can add that to their atrocities, they engage in bullying. We haven't even answered the question if Diana's being raised as a potential queen or does Hippolyte plan for her to fully take her place beside her father. Or is she just meant to be a princess forever.

[jelebino]

I might have taken this better if they'd been replaced with something new and interesting. Zola and Lennox, as characters, are not that; and in fact they seem mostly ciphers at this point. I don't like what he did to the Amazons. If you think they were lame characters, do you really think Zola or Lennox or any of the gods are improvements?

Fair question. Well ...

Zola is credible as a tough-minded young woman who's way out of her depth and knows it. But she isn't panicking or making stupid demands; she's just feeling her way among the formidable entities with whom she's forced to interact. I want to know more of her background, for instance whether she was in charge of that farmhouse. I'd prefer to see her in her own element, driving down Virginia backroads with Diana, dodging thunderbolts. Zola's okay.

Hermes is appealing, but he's a bit of an android. I assume he knows more than he's saying, else how would he know where Zola even was? If Diana weren't dependent on his cooperation she should have sat him down for a full interrogation.

Lennox I can take or leave. I know he's Diana's more experienced brother, maybe if I knew more about his long game I'd appreciate him, but for now he's just a smug git with a couple of good tricks.

I badly want Diana to drop Apollo into a sunspot, and somebody turn Hera into a horse, so that's some kind of character value. They're scarcely deep, though. Strife is such a Strife, I kind of want to keep her around. As for Great Big Fish and Happy Birthday, well I've been reading The Wonderful Wizard of Oz et. seq. lately, and I can tell you Frank L. Baum did them way better. They're one-dimensional pantomine nobles.

Hippolyta was good when she was being shrewd and strategically on top of things. Then she became a tragic, tragic woman who could provide a Milan prima donna with a resounding aria and death scene.

About missing the old supporting cast, at present I'm missing the whole DC Universe I'd come to love, excepting a few bright spots. I can't even speculate how Diana should develop until I see how the DCNu is going to develop.

Okay, I'm sounding jaded, but really I'm impatient. Brian, can't we skip half of this languid banter and get to the showdown?

[SteveGus]

Zola is credible as a tough-minded young woman who's way out of her depth and knows it. But she isn't panicking or making stupid demands; she's just feeling her way among the formidable entities with whom she's forced to interact. I want to know more of her background, for instance whether she was in charge of that farmhouse. I'd prefer to see her in her own element, driving down Virginia backroads with Diana, dodging thunderbolts. Zola's okay.

Zola is Pauline, a perennial damsel in distress.

[jelebino]

Zola is Pauline, a perennial damsel in distress.

Slightly more than that, she's got the "#@%*! the cosmic implications, I'm a MOM!" thing going.

But certainly, Wonder Woman should always have a few damsels in distress around.