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  1. #76
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    That's what makes this run so tired and stupid. These Amazons are just like all the other evil Amazons throughout antiquity. It's a story that's been told before, over and over again that requires no imagination or creativity. All Azzarello needed was a healthy dose of cynicism and a willingness to destroy instead of uplift.
    This.....

    Makes me laugh a little.

    For how many decades have the Amazons of DC been the near perfect culture, trying to lift us thick headed men out of our own mire? Six? Seven? Yes, Im sure keeping to that status quo would have required tons of creative effort.

    And why is it that the story of Diana learning about the flaws of her culture long hidden, rising above them, and being better than where she came from, is not uplifting? Seems to me that a lot of kids could do well to hear that message.

    How is it that people cant see this?

    The point is not to look at Diana and say "Aw, what a great girl. She came up from a really nice place!" It's closer to "Aw, what a great girl! She came up from a flawed place with some serious problems, but she overcame those limitations and rose beyond them!"

    How is that not uplifting? To know that you are not limited by the flaws of your family and neighborhood?

    If the Amazons do have such flaws, does it not make Diana more heroic because she did not succumb to the same?

    And why do people freak over this anyway? Its far from the first time DC's Amazons have been shown with a dark side.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    How is that not uplifting? ...
    If I may, when you read this story, as it is, do you find it uplifting? Most everything you describe feels (to me) like you reading into it, but I don't actually get that vibe from the comic itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    If the Amazons do have such flaws, does it not make Diana more heroic because she did not succumb to the same?
    Can she really be considered heroic for not succumbing to flaws she didn't know about?

    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    And why do people freak over this anyway? Its far from the first time DC's Amazons have been shown with a dark side.
    First you say the Amazons are perfect for 70 years, then you say this isn't the first time we've seen the dark side of the Amazons? Just because we've seen it before (as not creative), doesn't mean we are all going to like it now, does it?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  3. #78
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Can she really be considered heroic for not succumbing to flaws she didn't know about?
    Yet so many claim Wonder Woman has been destroyed because of them.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Yet so many claim Wonder Woman has been destroyed because of them.
    Maybe they mean the overall story, because the flaws did change a chunk of her supporting cast.
    I'm a bumblebee. I'm a bee and I need to get back to the hive.

  5. #80
    Senior Member chastmastr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coveredinbees View Post
    Maybe they mean the overall story, because the flaws did change a chunk of her supporting cast.
    Or the comic "Wonder Woman"--or the whole continuum of DC's universe which she is part of.

    I don't think people are trying to argue that she could not embrace goodness in spite of, rather than because of, her culture (again, this does strike me as being more like Big Barda than Wonder Woman!), but that that culture, as previously defined as at least somewhat utopian, is an integral part of the character and her premise.

  6. #81
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Yet so many claim Wonder Woman has been destroyed because of them.
    From Perez to #600, almost every new writer has been content to move Wonder Woman to a new city and introduce a new supporting cast. Only one thing was consistent these past 27 years: the Amazons and Paradise Island endured, despite multiple attempts to destroy them. Now they too are gone, and with them, Diana no longer has a place of her own. This is the problem.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Can she really be considered heroic for not succumbing to flaws she didn't know about?
    Well, for starters they didnīt exactly go out of their way to hide the rampant misandry.

  8. #83
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    And one could assume her journey in the present and moving forward will largely be based on the idea of rejecting her jacked up family values and stand taller than all of them.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    Well, for starters they didnīt exactly go out of their way to hide the rampant misandry.
    This is one reason I think this aspect of the story is poorly written. The Amazons (both female and male) are exaggeratedly one-dimentional (at best), and Diana (as far as we know) is so polar opposite that she seems more foreign at home than she does in our world. It doesn't feel like she grew up there at all. It's a disconnected paint by agenda that doesn't fit together coherently.

    eta:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And one could assume her journey in the present and moving forward will largely be based on the idea of rejecting her jacked up family values and stand taller than all of them.
    Over the years, I have bought some really crappy comics based on assumptions of where I thought the story was headed.

    For the purposure of discussion, I try to stick mainly to want's on the pages we have.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 04-13-2012 at 09:21 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  10. #85
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Well of course there's always the chance I'm wrong. Just that's what I believe the whole point in setting all this up is for. I can't claim to be in anyone's head though, so its just a theory, but a theory made based on what's been on the page thus far.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Well of course there's always the chance I'm wrong. Just that's what I believe the whole point in setting all this up is for. I can't claim to be in anyone's head though, so its just a theory, but a theory made based on what's been on the page thus far.
    It's fun to discuss and speculate, and I don't doubt the value to your hypothesis - if I had to bet, I'd say that's the general direction we are headed. But, I don't think the story itself has done a very good job setting that up, because Diana feels so different from these Amazon that she doesn't really feel a part of them. They share so little in common, it's hard for me to see this Diana growing up among these Amazons.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fused View Post
    Is this implying that the 2k drop was caused by the events that happened in issue 7? It can't be cause and effect in that case because the 2k that left wouldn't have read it to be enraged to drop it.
    That's not what I was implying at all. My only goal was to illustrate how drastically the numbers are falling, and they are falling.

  13. #88
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    That's not what I was implying at all. My only goal was to illustrate how drastically the numbers are falling, and they are falling.
    Aren't most of the NuDC books gradually falling to their pre-reboot numbers?
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  14. #89
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    Aren't most of the NuDC books gradually falling to their pre-reboot numbers?
    Actually a few of them have already hit the preboot numbers for books in that slot in the last two years (because comparing it to the low sales last year is kind of like taking a swipe at low hanging fruit) & still haven't stabilised yet. I predict that most of them will be below the preboot numbers by years end. An not just becuase i hate the reboot, but because the reboot hasn't lived up to its promises. Its not suprising really... I know that WW fans have been some of the more vocal complainants on this topic, but frankly all the rebooted characters are pretty extreme make-overs of much loved characters. I mean, sure WW need a reboot, but this wasn't the specific reboot it needed. Its kind of gone from one extreme to the other.

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    It's fun to discuss and speculate, and I don't doubt the value to your hypothesis - if I had to bet, I'd say that's the general direction we are headed. But, I don't think the story itself has done a very good job setting that up, because Diana feels so different from these Amazon that she doesn't really feel a part of them. They share so little in common, it's hard for me to see this Diana growing up among these Amazons.
    Maybe she used to be, but decided to embrace the ideals of man's world because the Amazons are bullies.
    I'm a bumblebee. I'm a bee and I need to get back to the hive.

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