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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    They'd have more reason to for sure.
    Naw, noone outside of comic fans like comics. If it weren't for the cartoons and movies, Batman would be forgotten, or just remembered for West/Keaton. Like the Nostalgia Critic said 'people still read comic books...?'

  2. #47
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRodriguez12 View Post
    Naw, noone outside of comic fans like comics. If it weren't for the cartoons and movies, Batman would be forgotten, or just remembered for West/Keaton. Like the Nostalgia Critic said 'people still read comic books...?'
    Please don't lump the Adam West and Michael Keaton portrayals together.

    Adam West was embarassing, it was so over-the-top campy.

    Keaton at least gave some dignity to the character.

  3. #48
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    Adam West's Batman was wildely popular at the time. I grew up on it. I enjoyed it immensely

  4. #49
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    Adam West's Batman was wildely popular at the time. I grew up on it. I enjoyed it immensely
    Oh, I loved it . . . when it was first on and I was in elementary school. (Was even Batman for Halloween when I was in first grade.)

    But as I got older, . . . not so much.

  5. #50
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    Yes, Batman has only ever been popular to the public in less violent forms like the cartoons and movies. Batman needs to be toned down a little. Modern people like shows like MLP and I suggest Batman follows suit.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Oh, I loved it . . . when it was first on and I was in elementary school. (Was even Batman for Halloween when I was in first grade.)

    But as I got older, . . . not so much.
    Definitely, but I like a little fun here and there.

    Honestly, I've always said the comics would be best off taking the formula from Batman: TAS but growing it up a little.

  7. #52
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    Definitely, but I like a little fun here and there.

    Honestly, I've always said the comics would be best off taking the formula from Batman: TAS but growing it up a little.
    Batman: The Animated Series definitely rocked . . . good feel, great retro artwork.

    Dark, but not terribly gloomy.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Theozilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    Definitely, but I like a little fun here and there.

    Honestly, I've always said the comics would be best off taking the formula from Batman: TAS but growing it up a little.
    Well I think that is what most writers do try to emulate, the major difference is that comic writers/artists don't have any TV censors forcing them to tone down any violent imagery.
    And let's not forget Paul Dini, one of the main minds behind Batman: TAS, did write the plot to both the Arkham Asylum & City video-games and outside the current live-action films those are most popular representations of Batman and both of those video-games has Batman at his most violent; he's constantly serving out severally damaging wounds to enemies in the games as well. IMO the Arkham games were basically the equivalent of TAS episodes without TV censors (and a more realistic art style).
    Last edited by Theozilla; 04-08-2012 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #54
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    Yeah, I think when I get concerned that Batman's becoming too much of a jerk or the current Bat-writers are losing sight of keeping the character heroic enough, TAS is a big part of that. It's perhaps the number 1 reason Batman became my favorite superhero and it was one of my favorite cartoons growing up, TAS/New Adventures/Beyond all. I think it did one of the best jobs of distilling the Batverse down to most of it's best elements and I think it really did show Bruce as a layered, compelling character instead of just heartless maniac. Just a great way of representing the entire Batverse, I think.

    EDIT: Oh, except Barbara and Bruce dating. That was just...ugh.
    Last edited by TZDEKA; 04-08-2012 at 08:16 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZDEKA View Post
    Yeah, I think when I get concerned that Batman's becoming too much of a jerk or the current Bat-writers are losing sight of keeping the character heroic enough, TAS is a big part of that. It's perhaps the number 1 reason Batman became my favorite superhero and it was one of my favorite cartoons growing up, TAS/New Adventures/Beyond all. I think it did one of the best jobs of distilling the Batverse down to most of it's best elements and I think it really did show Bruce as a layered, compelling character instead of just heartless maniac. Just a great way of representing the entire Batverse, I think.

    EDIT: Oh, except Barbara and Bruce dating. That was just...ALRIGHT!
    I edited your comment to make it correct

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide Kid View Post
    I stopped reading Batman and Robin for this exact reason.
    I don't take any pleasure on seeing little boys bathed in gore or killing someone. It is unecessary and it is too easy to write this kind of thing.
    The big panels with gritting teeth became tedious very quickly.
    It is the anti-fun equation and I don't enjoy it.
    Or I'm getting old, I can't say...
    (I really miss the days of Grayson's Batman with a lot of fun and weirdness)
    Yup, this. And BandR Batman goes out of his way to deliberately try to verbally insult the vallain and makes threats to kill him, meaning saying it out right. Atleast before he'd be like "Its a 200 story drop to the ground" and not be like "I"M GONNA KILL YOU FOR TOUCHING MY SON" and being outright just a douche with it. Batman always keeps his emotions under control and his cool.

    I dont enjoy Detective. In both books its a bastardization of the character, turning Batman into a derogatory who has the urge to hurt just to hurt. And seems he goes out of his way to be a dick. It really has ruined the character, in the 90's Batman was grimdark but he still behaved like Batman, having self restraint and not acting like an ass and not being derogotory.

    Atleast when Frank Miller did it he was funny and didnt go over board with it, Millers Batman STILL had self restraint even if he was half nut job, but he only took it as far as needed. What I'm saying is that although he was hardcore he wasnt a nasty person, as hes being portrayed in Detective and BandR (not as much in BandR). But people will eat this up and buy it, so thats why its being published. A lot of it like sated is easy to do and is uncreative, but people will buy.

  12. #57
    Scientist and Saint pedestriancrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reginleif View Post
    Modern people like shows like MLP and I suggest Batman follows suit.
    I totally agree.

    I don't think Batman can be too dark or violent (assuming that violent isn't synonymous with murderous), but "Batman" is an act. There should always be, at the very least, a faintly discernable line between Bruce and his vigilante persona. Despite Bruce's drive and focus, we're still looking at a guy who more or less raised three kids (though with varying levels of success) and is working on his fourth. I'd like to see him mellow out around the family in the cave, but on the street, the Batman needs to be a scary, violent jerk, and people need to think that he might kill them if it comes to that. So, no problems here with the example posted by the OP. And I'm pleasantly surprised to find that I quite liked Tony's work, there.
    Reading: Action; Batgirl; Batman; B&R; BoP; Catwoman; DCU Presents; JL; Nightwing; Red Hood & the Outlaws; Supergirl; Teen Titans; Uncanny X-Force; Uncanny X-Men; Wolverine & the X-Men; X-Factor

  13. #58
    Senior Member Brannon's Avatar
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    I'd say that the scene in the OP's original post is a bit over the top. I'm not averse to a bit of well placed violence if it truly serves the story, and the characters, but the scene as depicted seems more like something the Punisher would be involved in, not Batman. The worst part of it is "Help yourself." That, to me, is bad characterization. Batman is not going to let someone bleed out when he can prevent it, regardless of who he is.

    I'm more a fan of Batman TAS, Neal Adams, Jim Aparo 70-early 90's Batman, so that's the camp that I'm firmly on the side of when it comes to how I think Batman should be portrayed.
    "I was handed a chocolate bar and an M-1 rifle and told to go kill Hitler."--Jack "King" Kirby

  14. #59
    Senior Member CrazyOldHermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    The problem with making Batman too dark is that he's a children's superhero, and it just reinforces the idea that comics books are for the immature manchild.
    I don't think Batman is a children's superhero. Or at least, I think casting him as such is terribly unfitting of the character and his world. They can make him suitable for children by making the violence and horror less explicit (TAS) or they can play the character for laughs and pretty much remove most of the darkness (Adam West, Brave and the Bold), but the core concept of the character is too dark to be a "children's" superhero when its played to its natural conclusion.

    All that matters to me is good, mature storytelling. And I don't mean the "blood and guts hurrah we're legitimate!" phony maturity that manbabies seem to crave, I mean intelligent storytelling that takes the material seriously and makes sense. When you get down to it Batman is a man who saw his parents brutally murdered as a child and swore to devote his life to dressing up in a costume and beating the crap out of people. Not only is that nutty behaviour, its violently nutty behaviour. You can ignore that nuttiness and be shrouded in self-denial, make a joke out of that nuttiness and play it for laughs or accept it and acknowledge it. I vastly prefer the third option and I think a writer or producer has gotta be really smart to play that for kids.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Brannon's Avatar
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    Superheroes walk a fine line between true pulpish noir and all-age entertainment. Even Spider-Man, a favorite of kids, has an origin where his uncle was murdered by a thug. He also dresses in a "nutty" costume. Wearing a costume is just too "accepted" as a conceit in superhero universes to point it out as a clear indication of insanity. I do agree that it typically takes more talent to balance those seemingly diametrically opposed themes and make them palatable for a broad audience. This is why Batman TAS is such a classic.

    There is a really interesting write up in a DC Heroes Batman sourcebook from the 80's (of all places) that points out that someone like Batman would actually have to be "hyper-sane" to undertake what he does. I side with this thinking.
    "I was handed a chocolate bar and an M-1 rifle and told to go kill Hitler."--Jack "King" Kirby

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