Besides, if anything, while children's lit may often be simpler in order to be understood by its audience, by that same token the standards for quality and consistency when something is going to be read by kids ought to be higher, if anything.
'Thinking too hard'. Pfeh. That kind of thinking is why so much entertainment is crap.
Just because the story doesn't reference EVERY story the Phoenix Force was in, or spend and endless amount of time focusing on Rachel's history, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.
And since one of their members, Wolverine, has Rachel working at his school and knows all of this, ignorance is inexplicable. Either he and Hank are lying to the rest of the Avengers, or the Avengers are all lying.
Either the Phoenix is immediately and invariably destructive to its environment upon taking a host, or Rachel was the Phoenix for ages without being such. Both cannot be true.
Last edited by Superbeast; 04-07-2012 at 10:14 AM.
No, they're not, and that's not the only two options. There was always a fear of destruction and losing control during the stories with Rachel and Jean.Then they must not know that Rachel was ever Phoenix or that Jean retained the connection when she came back. Because their statements are wrong, wrong, wrong, the only two options are that they ignorant or lying.
And just because the creators aren't anal retentive and trying to create a comprehensive history of ALL the various interpretations of the Phoenix Force over the years doesn't mean that the characters are lying or incompetent. If they are, they so are the X-Men because they're basically stating the exact same things as the Avengers are in regards to the Jean/ Phoenix connection.
Or neither is happening and what we see is what we get.And since one of their members, Wolverine, has Rachel working at his school and knows all of this, ignorance is inexplicable. Either he and Hank are lying to the rest of the Avengers, or the Avengers are all lying.
Like I've said before, you aren't writing the story. You don't get to decide who is or is not lying. You can point out discrepancies in the story, but that doesn't reflect on the motivations or personalities of the characters.
I understand the distinction. I'm not sure why no one else can recognize it.You seem to not understand the distinction between streamlined and contradictory/wrong.
No, they can both be true because neither one of those is contradictory. Rachel was host to the Phoenix Force, true. But just because she didn't IMMEDIATELY destroy the environment doesn't mean she wasn't CAPABLE of destroying it. And her potential loss of control and following her mother's footsteps was always an underlying theme with her character.Either the Phoenix is immediately and invariably destructive to its environment upon taking a host, or Rachel was the Phoenix for ages without being such. Both cannot be true.
If for some reason the firebird manifestation of the Phoenix Force that's currently rampaging through space is following a straight line path towards Rachel (even though that's awfully strange given that the Holy Spirit, I mean Phoenix Force, is already with her), then taking her into space towards the firebird (not trying to avoid it) might actually be a decent idea - let the presumed union of the two take place in space far away from Earth. After all, the Phoenix has been successfully opposed, not just by the likes of Galactus but also by merely mortal opposition like the Claremont/Byrne X-Men roster, when in a host.
The way that Cap is handling it is really ham-fisted, though, given that he doesn't even mention that they propose to take Hope into space rather than depower or kill her or anything else that the X-Men might reasonably fear. Not that Cyclops seems likely to agree to the space proposal, either, the way he's being written here, but at least Cap's pleas to 'listen to reason' would have more resonance if he was actually attempting to reason with anybody as opposed to making bald demands for custody of Hope.
So, I'm obviously not going to read through all of this because there is way too much.
But am I the only one that thinks there is an ulterior motive on the part of Cyclops here?
My first impression upon reading the issue is that this is all a smokescreen for Scott. He's playing the part of good soldier, of leader who does what he has to. But the issue sets up, via Wolverine and Cap, that Scott is bitter as HELL about the Phoenix Force, what he was forced to lose because of it (Jean), what Jean had to do because of it (kill herself).
And then he's suddenly all worshippy of the Phoenix, happy and supportive, convinced that it's going to be the salvation of the mutant race?
Nah, I don't buy it.
I think he thinks it's going to be HIS salvation, in one of two ways. He says, remember "And rebirth. Always rebirth".
My feeling is that he's either going to try to use the Phoenix Force to resurrect Jean Grey, or that the above is saying he's trying to find some way to either kill it or trap it, in revenge.
These stories always come down to something deeply personal for the heroes. Big, heady concepts like saving a race aren't very relatable. But the grief you feel from losing a loved one, the need for revenge or the lengths one will go to to undo it...that's very relatable. Thats what House of M came down to, Avengers Disassembled, Flashpoint. It was always something very personal, individual.
I don't know. We'll see.
Wolverine killed Jean during Morrison's run. So for all this talk about Jean killing herself, we're meant to overlookm Wolverine IMPALED JEAN ON HIS CLAWS AS THEY WERE FALLING INTO THE SUN.
The Phoenix then saved Jeans life and then Jean, with the Phoenix, SAVED WOLVERINE FROM BEING GRILLED ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.
But he's apparently forgetting that part of his own personal history regarding the Phoenix Force saving Jean as well as his own ass.
But that wouldn't go with the story of the Phoenix being super destructive rather than generally benevolent if hard to understand due to it's nature. But just like they realised they can't kill Galactus without knocking the universe out of wack, surely they must realise the same about The Phoenix or Eternity or Death, these entities beyond human conception that are just part of the natural order of their universe.
Last edited by Superbeast; 04-07-2012 at 10:39 AM.
That's the crux of my argument. It's true enough that the details as to whether Jean IS the Phoenix or it's a preexisting cosmic force, whether the original Dark Phoenix was a duplicate or was Jean's personality and soul, get kind of obscure, so are up for grabs in this story.
In fact, that's pretty much the only way writers ever show somebody to be lying, apart from some other character calling them on it. You pretty much never get a caption or thought balloon saying a statement is a lie, the reader is expected to know that if a character sees one thing and reports another, that's a lie.