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  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Insane was not the right choice of word. It wasn't driven insane in the Dark Phoenix Saga it was tainted by Jeans sordid fantasies. It was driven insane by some Sh'iar tech in Endsong.

    AvX makes a mess of things because the PF is not supposed to be able to act on the physical plane hence the need for a host. It gets confusing because there are like re-re-re-re-re retcons on every aspect of it. That's down to the editors fault and arguing between writers etc...
    AvX isn't making "a mess of things." The twenty plus years of contradictory information on the Phoenix Force from the X-Men books is making a mess of things. AvX is just simplifying things for the sake of the story, since most people seem to be just familiar with the Dark Phoenix saga anyway.

  2. #977
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    AvX isn't making "a mess of things." The twenty plus years of contradictory information on the Phoenix Force from the X-Men books is making a mess of things. AvX is just simplifying things for the sake of the story, since most people seem to be just familiar with the Dark Phoenix saga anyway.
    Yes, it messes everything up. It's one big "What If? the Phoenix Force was never anything but destructive and Rachel was never Phoenix". Because if Rachel was still Phoenix, then every statement in this event to the effect that the Phoenix is immediately destructive upon manifesting in a host (yes, we know the hostless firebird is currently wreaking havoc) is bull.

  3. #978
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronStarks View Post
    I feel like you guys are thinking alittle to hard for a comic book event. God I remember when these things were still for kids, the good old days.
    Are you still a kid? No? Then stop complaining about people asking more of comics. If they're geared towards adults, then they're subject to the same type of critique as any other literature for adults.

    Besides, if anything, while children's lit may often be simpler in order to be understood by its audience, by that same token the standards for quality and consistency when something is going to be read by kids ought to be higher, if anything.

    'Thinking too hard'. Pfeh. That kind of thinking is why so much entertainment is crap.

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Yes, it messes everything up. It's one big "What If? the Phoenix Force was never anything but destructive and Rachel was never Phoenix". Because if Rachel was still Phoenix, then every statement in this event to the effect that the Phoenix is immediately destructive upon manifesting in a host (yes, we know the hostless firebird is currently wreaking havoc) is bull.
    AvX isn't the first story to contradict the whole history with the Phoenix Force. Hell, practically every story that brought it up contradicted some previous part of it. Most writers only kept the broad strokes. Even the whole history with Rachel retconned the idea that Jean WAS the Phoenix, and Jean's return contradicted her previous interpretation by stating the Phoenix Force was a separate entity. And then there were the stories that implied that Jean WAS the Phoenix instead of the Phoenix merely thinking it was here, ect, ect, ect. You get the idea. The history is confusing.

    Just because the story doesn't reference EVERY story the Phoenix Force was in, or spend and endless amount of time focusing on Rachel's history, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    No they're not.
    If they're not, then they're deliberately having everything the Avengers say about the Phoenix be wrong. They say the Phoenix immediately destroys its environment upon taking a host; if Rachel and resurrected Jean's stories are intact, then they're lying or mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    No they weren't.
    Then they must not know that Rachel was ever Phoenix or that Jean retained the connection when she came back. Because their statements are wrong, wrong, wrong, the only two options are that they ignorant or lying.

    And since one of their members, Wolverine, has Rachel working at his school and knows all of this, ignorance is inexplicable. Either he and Hank are lying to the rest of the Avengers, or the Avengers are all lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    And strike three. Swing and a miss.

    Seriously, dude, they're just streamlining the story here in order to make it more comprehensible. Doesn't mean the characters are lying or they are ignorant. We've been through this several times now. Not sure why the idea that storytellers would be simplifying the facts to prevent bogging down the story is so incomprehensible.
    You seem to not understand the distinction between streamlined and contradictory/wrong.

    Either the Phoenix is immediately and invariably destructive to its environment upon taking a host, or Rachel was the Phoenix for ages without being such. Both cannot be true.

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    AvX isn't the first story to contradict the whole history with the Phoenix Force. Hell, practically every story that brought it up contradicted some previous part of it. Most writers only kept the broad strokes. Even the whole history with Rachel retconned the idea that Jean WAS the Phoenix, and Jean's return contradicted her previous interpretation by stating the Phoenix Force was a separate entity. And then there were the stories that implied that Jean WAS the Phoenix instead of the Phoenix merely thinking it was here, ect, ect, ect. You get the idea. The history is confusing.

    Just because the story doesn't reference EVERY story the Phoenix Force was in, or spend and endless amount of time focusing on Rachel's history, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.
    Either the Phoenix is always destructive when it takes a host, or Rachel was Phoenix. Both cannot be true in the same universe.

  7. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronStarks View Post
    I feel like you guys are thinking alittle to hard for a comic book event. God I remember when these things were still for kids, the good old days.
    Well yeah, considering the first three pages of this comic show planetary genocide, I think it's fair to assume these are no longer aimed at kids unless the intent is to traumatise them immediately with freakish aliens that look like Outer Limits escapees and then total annihilation via cosmic napalm from above by massive flaming bird of prey. Might make taking them to an aviary a little more of a tense experience.
    Last edited by Superbeast; 04-07-2012 at 09:14 AM.

  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    If they're not, then they're deliberately having everything the Avengers say about the Phoenix be wrong. They say the Phoenix immediately destroys its environment upon taking a host; if Rachel and resurrected Jean's stories are intact, then they're lying or mistaken.
    No, they're not. They're not contradicting anything. Saying that the Phoenix is a destructive force when it takes a host is NOT contradictory.

    Then they must not know that Rachel was ever Phoenix or that Jean retained the connection when she came back. Because their statements are wrong, wrong, wrong, the only two options are that they ignorant or lying.
    No, they're not, and that's not the only two options. There was always a fear of destruction and losing control during the stories with Rachel and Jean.

    And just because the creators aren't anal retentive and trying to create a comprehensive history of ALL the various interpretations of the Phoenix Force over the years doesn't mean that the characters are lying or incompetent. If they are, they so are the X-Men because they're basically stating the exact same things as the Avengers are in regards to the Jean/ Phoenix connection.

    And since one of their members, Wolverine, has Rachel working at his school and knows all of this, ignorance is inexplicable. Either he and Hank are lying to the rest of the Avengers, or the Avengers are all lying.
    Or neither is happening and what we see is what we get.

    Like I've said before, you aren't writing the story. You don't get to decide who is or is not lying. You can point out discrepancies in the story, but that doesn't reflect on the motivations or personalities of the characters.

    You seem to not understand the distinction between streamlined and contradictory/wrong.
    I understand the distinction. I'm not sure why no one else can recognize it.

    Either the Phoenix is immediately and invariably destructive to its environment upon taking a host, or Rachel was the Phoenix for ages without being such. Both cannot be true.
    No, they can both be true because neither one of those is contradictory. Rachel was host to the Phoenix Force, true. But just because she didn't IMMEDIATELY destroy the environment doesn't mean she wasn't CAPABLE of destroying it. And her potential loss of control and following her mother's footsteps was always an underlying theme with her character.

  9. #984
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    I don't recall the Phoenix Force ever being stopped from carrying out it's Phoenix Work. Because to interfere with it's Phoenix Work would lead to the destruction of the entire universe.
    So, when Chuck calmed down Dark Phoenix and installed new psychic blocks towards the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga, the universe ended? Or when Jean's personality and/or soul chose to use the weapon in the Blue Area to temporarily do herself in? That would explain a lot.

    If for some reason the firebird manifestation of the Phoenix Force that's currently rampaging through space is following a straight line path towards Rachel (even though that's awfully strange given that the Holy Spirit, I mean Phoenix Force, is already with her), then taking her into space towards the firebird (not trying to avoid it) might actually be a decent idea - let the presumed union of the two take place in space far away from Earth. After all, the Phoenix has been successfully opposed, not just by the likes of Galactus but also by merely mortal opposition like the Claremont/Byrne X-Men roster, when in a host.

    The way that Cap is handling it is really ham-fisted, though, given that he doesn't even mention that they propose to take Hope into space rather than depower or kill her or anything else that the X-Men might reasonably fear. Not that Cyclops seems likely to agree to the space proposal, either, the way he's being written here, but at least Cap's pleas to 'listen to reason' would have more resonance if he was actually attempting to reason with anybody as opposed to making bald demands for custody of Hope.

  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Either the Phoenix is always destructive when it takes a host, or Rachel was Phoenix. Both cannot be true in the same universe.
    Once again, yes both can be true because neither is contradictory.

  11. #986

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    So, I'm obviously not going to read through all of this because there is way too much.

    But am I the only one that thinks there is an ulterior motive on the part of Cyclops here?

    My first impression upon reading the issue is that this is all a smokescreen for Scott. He's playing the part of good soldier, of leader who does what he has to. But the issue sets up, via Wolverine and Cap, that Scott is bitter as HELL about the Phoenix Force, what he was forced to lose because of it (Jean), what Jean had to do because of it (kill herself).

    And then he's suddenly all worshippy of the Phoenix, happy and supportive, convinced that it's going to be the salvation of the mutant race?

    Nah, I don't buy it.

    I think he thinks it's going to be HIS salvation, in one of two ways. He says, remember "And rebirth. Always rebirth".

    My feeling is that he's either going to try to use the Phoenix Force to resurrect Jean Grey, or that the above is saying he's trying to find some way to either kill it or trap it, in revenge.

    These stories always come down to something deeply personal for the heroes. Big, heady concepts like saving a race aren't very relatable. But the grief you feel from losing a loved one, the need for revenge or the lengths one will go to to undo it...that's very relatable. Thats what House of M came down to, Avengers Disassembled, Flashpoint. It was always something very personal, individual.

    I don't know. We'll see.
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  12. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Either the Phoenix is always destructive when it takes a host, or Rachel was Phoenix. Both cannot be true in the same universe.
    The former was false to begin with even if the only case was Jean.

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    So, I'm obviously not going to read through all of this because there is way too much.

    But am I the only one that thinks there is an ulterior motive on the part of Cyclops here?

    My first impression upon reading the issue is that this is all a smokescreen for Scott. He's playing the part of good soldier, of leader who does what he has to. But the issue sets up, via Wolverine and Cap, that Scott is bitter as HELL about the Phoenix Force, what he was forced to lose because of it (Jean), what Jean had to do because of it (kill herself).

    And then he's suddenly all worshippy of the Phoenix, happy and supportive, convinced that it's going to be the salvation of the mutant race?

    Nah, I don't buy it.

    I think he thinks it's going to be HIS salvation, in one of two ways. He says, remember "And rebirth. Always rebirth".

    My feeling is that he's either going to try to use the Phoenix Force to resurrect Jean Grey, or that the above is saying he's trying to find some way to either kill it or trap it, in revenge.

    These stories always come down to something deeply personal for the heroes. Big, heady concepts like saving a race aren't very relatable. But the grief you feel from losing a loved one, the need for revenge or the lengths one will go to to undo it...that's very relatable. Thats what House of M came down to, Avengers Disassembled, Flashpoint. It was always something very personal, individual.

    I don't know. We'll see.
    You guys do realise Jean came back as the Phoenix when Wolverine killed her, right?

    Wolverine killed Jean during Morrison's run. So for all this talk about Jean killing herself, we're meant to overlookm Wolverine IMPALED JEAN ON HIS CLAWS AS THEY WERE FALLING INTO THE SUN.

    The Phoenix then saved Jeans life and then Jean, with the Phoenix, SAVED WOLVERINE FROM BEING GRILLED ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.

    But he's apparently forgetting that part of his own personal history regarding the Phoenix Force saving Jean as well as his own ass.

    But that wouldn't go with the story of the Phoenix being super destructive rather than generally benevolent if hard to understand due to it's nature. But just like they realised they can't kill Galactus without knocking the universe out of wack, surely they must realise the same about The Phoenix or Eternity or Death, these entities beyond human conception that are just part of the natural order of their universe.
    Last edited by Superbeast; 04-07-2012 at 09:39 AM.

  14. #989
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    No, they're not. They're not contradicting anything. Saying that the Phoenix is a destructive force when it takes a host is NOT contradictory.
    So, you're saying Rachel was a destructive force for the entirety of her career as Phoenix? Not in my comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    No, they're not, and that's not the only two options. There was always a fear of destruction and losing control during the stories with Rachel and Jean.

    And just because the creators aren't anal retentive and trying to create a comprehensive history of ALL the various interpretations of the Phoenix Force over the years doesn't mean that the characters are lying or incompetent. If they are, they so are the X-Men because they're basically stating the exact same things as the Avengers are in regards to the Jean/ Phoenix connection.
    Fear and potential, sure... but that's NOT the statement the Avengers are making. They're not saying that when the Phoenix takes a host, there's some potential for the host to lose control and destruction to ensue. They're saying when it takes a host, it DOES destroy its environment. Since that is not the case, we're back to wrong or lying.

    That's the crux of my argument. It's true enough that the details as to whether Jean IS the Phoenix or it's a preexisting cosmic force, whether the original Dark Phoenix was a duplicate or was Jean's personality and soul, get kind of obscure, so are up for grabs in this story.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Or neither is happening and what we see is what we get.

    Like I've said before, you aren't writing the story. You don't get to decide who is or is not lying. You can point out discrepancies in the story, but that doesn't reflect on the motivations or personalities of the characters.
    I'm the reader, who's also read the earlier stories set in the same world. Therefore I CAN AND WILL point out when things are contradictory. If Rachel was Phoenix and Logan knows that, which he certainly does according to the earlier stories, then he knows that the original Dark Phoenix Saga was NOT the last time the Phoenix was present on Earth. If Logan was present when Jean was taken away from Scott by Xorneto, which he was, since he's the one who cut off Xorneto's head, then he knows he's misstating things when he says it was the Phoenix that took her away. Yes, if a character is in a position to know certain things, and then states something different or contradictory, we as readers CAN conclude that either the character is lying or something has happened to their memory. That's true whether the event and the inaccurate statement are panels, issues, or decades apart.

    In fact, that's pretty much the only way writers ever show somebody to be lying, apart from some other character calling them on it. You pretty much never get a caption or thought balloon saying a statement is a lie, the reader is expected to know that if a character sees one thing and reports another, that's a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    I understand the distinction. I'm not sure why no one else can recognize it.



    No, they can both be true because neither one of those is contradictory. Rachel was host to the Phoenix Force, true. But just because she didn't IMMEDIATELY destroy the environment doesn't mean she wasn't CAPABLE of destroying it. And her potential loss of control and following her mother's footsteps was always an underlying theme with her character.
    The Avengers are not making statements about potential.

  15. #990

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbeast View Post
    You guys do realise Jean came back as the Phoenix when Wolverine killed her, right?

    Wolverine killed Jean during Morrison's run. So for all this talk about Jean killing herself, we're meant to overlookm Wolverine IMPALED JEAN ON HIS CLAWS AS THEY WERE FALLING INTO THE SUN.

    The Phoenix then saved Jeans life and then Jean, with the Phoenix, SAVED WOLVERINE FROM BEING GRILLED ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN.

    But he's apparently forgetting that part of his own personal history regarding the Phoenix Force saving Jean as well as his own ass.
    Yeah, I'm going more with what is presented in the issue than the whole convoluted history of the X Men and Jean Grey.
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