Should Jean Grey's pedestal be smashed down like Xavier's was?

[Pixie_Solanas]

"Sorry, pal, it doesn't work"

God, as if that safety-headgear wasn't annoying enough....

[The Black Guardian]

Frankly, smashing pedestals is what creates crap.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Never underestimate the meaty, crackling interest in a redemptive storyline. Jean can work her way back into our good graces by nakedsitting on a chicken as part of her performance at a Barstow, California revival of Folies Bergère (when she comes back).

[wolvie616]

So when are people going to finally move on from Dark Phoenix Saga? Everyone moves on for any trashy character but with Jean, they're stuck on her case for ever.

Well, I personally don't know anyone who still is butthurt about the DPS, but since you asked.....

The Dark Phoenix Saga is not just one of the best stories ever written in Comics, but it's the most influential story written EVER in the X-Men mythos, the ramifications of which are still relevant today.

The Hellfire Club? Relevant.
Emma Frost and her moral status? Relevant
Dazzler and Kitty Pryde as X-Men? Relevant
The Dangers of the Phoenix Force? Just look at AvX
The character effects it had on Cyclops, Jean, and Wolverine? Still relevant and referenced

So I could see why people are still talking about it: It STILL MATTERS!

That being said, if you were talking about In universe, the majority of the MU doesn't even care. It's just the X-Men from Claremont's era, since they had to witness the horror and fight it firsthand. I don't think you would be left unscathed if you fought to the death against a planet-eating entity.

Again, this is a case of fans being testy, and not the comics themselves

[Aguja]

Does Jesus need to be knocked off his pedestal? I think not.

In her current state Jean works best as a martyr saint and goddess to the X-Men. Giving her faults like current characters would diminish that. You don't follow a god who's fallen prey to the same weakness you have. A flawed Jean can't be the shining beacon for the X-Men. If she comes back as human that is another story.

[ZNOP]

I have, and her past trangressions aren't even part of the discussion. In fact, it's really troublesome that a thread that is supposed to be about Jean's character is somehow derailed into Emma's past for no real reason than someone just mentioning the Dark Phoenix Arc.

Your surprised? I have pointed out on several occasions how the mere mention of "Jean Grey", derails threads. Truth is, this is nothing more than someone(s) testing the waters to see if the same can be done by invoking Emma Frost's name. Emma Frost has/had the ability to reform all along and become part of the greater good for mutantkind... But, she she didn't. Her character became part of the greater good to be the direct replacement for Jean Grey and even now that's questionable. Do I really need I point out all of the confrontations she's had with the Grey's ever since she was allowed to join the X-men right up until and directly after she seduced that milksop Scott Summers?

[xhx23x]

I'm not even touching that. So much stupidity in one post.

[Optic Rage]

Your surprised? I have pointed out on several occasions how the mere mention of "Jean Grey", derails threads. Truth is, this is nothing more than someone(s) testing the waters to see if the same can be done by invoking Emma Frost's name. Emma Frost has/had the ability to reform all along and become part of the greater good for mutantkind... But, she she didn't. Her character became part of the greater good to be the direct replacement for Jean Grey and even now that's questionable. Do I really need I point out all of the confrontations she's had with the Grey's ever since she was allowed to join the X-men right up until and directly after she seduced that milksop Scott Summers?

My head hurts.

[fortyseven]

Somewhere, Jean Grey is crying.

[Ingonyama]

I'm a Jean fan and I don't get it.

First of all: Emma was a counterpoint to Jean when she first joined the X-Men after Gen X was cancelled. She was the snarky "bad girl" telepath to Jean's "good girl," though she came to grow into a good guy again in her own right over the course of her time with the team. Even her relationship to Cyclops was very different from Jean's; she was more psychological, more able to get into his head (literally and figuratively). Jean was patient and understanding with Scott, though she had her limits; Emma was analytical and blunt, not afraid to manipulate him into doing what she wanted. (This isn't a bad thing, per se) Emma's only become the "patient and understanding girlfriend" over a long period of time under bad writers.

Secondly: Emma didn't even interact with any other Grey until after Jean died and Rachel came back to the X-Men. Her antagonistic relationship with them started after Scott was seduced. Beforehand, she and Jean weren't terribly fond of each other, but neither were they the arch-nemeses they were painted as after the mental affair.

Third: Emma reformed in the early 90s, after being a hardcore villain in her early appearances and a more shrewd, calculating foe in the decade afterward. She was recruited by Professor X to co-found Generation X with Banshee, and spent that entire time not only reformed, but actively interested in the welfare of her students. Even her most morally questionable actions from that time came from caring about the kids first. Morrison backslid her into a self-centered dilettante when he took the helm because he hadn't read the books, but she reformed quite a long time before newcomers to the X-Franchise think she did.

I'm not Emma Frost's biggest fan these days, I think she at least deserves to be evaluated on her whole history, not just one sleazy incident.

[xhx23x]

I'm a Jean fan and I don't get it.

First of all: Emma was a counterpoint to Jean when she first joined the X-Men after Gen X was cancelled. She was the snarky "bad girl" telepath to Jean's "good girl," though she came to grow into a good guy again in her own right over the course of her time with the team. Even her relationship to Cyclops was very different from Jean's; she was more psychological, more able to get into his head (literally and figuratively). Jean was patient and understanding with Scott, though she had her limits; Emma was analytical and blunt, not afraid to manipulate him into doing what she wanted. (This isn't a bad thing, per se) Emma's only become the "patient and understanding girlfriend" over a long period of time under bad writers.

Secondly: Emma didn't even interact with any other Grey until after Jean died and Rachel came back to the X-Men. Her antagonistic relationship with them started after Scott was seduced. Beforehand, she and Jean weren't terribly fond of each other, but neither were they the arch-nemeses they were painted as after the mental affair.

Third: Emma reformed in the early 90s, after being a hardcore villain in her early appearances and a more shrewd, calculating foe in the decade afterward. She was recruited by Professor X to co-found Generation X with Banshee, and spent that entire time not only reformed, but actively interested in the welfare of her students. Even her most morally questionable actions from that time came from caring about the kids first. Morrison backslid her into a self-centered dilettante when he took the helm because he hadn't read the books, but she reformed quite a long time before newcomers to the X-Franchise think she did.

I'm not Emma Frost's biggest fan these days, I think she at least deserves to be evaluated on her whole history, not just one sleazy incident.

You shouldn't try to reason. ZNOP just wanted a chance to remind all of us, in case we haven't read 95% of her or his post, that the morrison run was an awful evil thing in her or his opinion even if the already derailed topic we were discussing wasn't even about that the affair or Emma's relationship with... Rachel, I guess since the rest is dead.

[ZNOP]

I'm a Jean fan and I don't get it.

First of all: Emma was a counterpoint to Jean when she first joined the X-Men after Gen X was cancelled. She was the snarky "bad girl" telepath to Jean's "good girl," though she came to grow into a good guy again in her own right over the course of her time with the team. Even her relationship to Cyclops was very different from Jean's; she was more psychological, more able to get into his head (literally and figuratively). Jean was patient and understanding with Scott, though she had her limits; Emma was analytical and blunt, not afraid to manipulate him into doing what she wanted. (This isn't a bad thing, per se) Emma's only become the "patient and understanding girlfriend" over a long period of time under bad writers.

Secondly: Emma didn't even interact with any other Grey until after Jean died and Rachel came back to the X-Men. Her antagonistic relationship with them started after Scott was seduced. Beforehand, she and Jean weren't terribly fond of each other, but neither were they the arch-nemeses they were painted as after the mental affair.

Third: Emma reformed in the early 90s, after being a hardcore villain in her early appearances and a more shrewd, calculating foe in the decade afterward. She was recruited by Professor X to co-found Generation X with Banshee, and spent that entire time not only reformed, but actively interested in the welfare of her students. Even her most morally questionable actions from that time came from caring about the kids first. Morrison backslid her into a self-centered dilettante when he took the helm because he hadn't read the books, but she reformed quite a long time before newcomers to the X-Franchise think she did.

I'm not Emma Frost's biggest fan these days, I think she at least deserves to be evaluated on her whole history, not just one sleazy incident.

The trap has been sprung... And, the true detractors (Optic Rage, fortyseven, and I'm shocked... Et Tu, Ingonyama?) have been exsposed!

[Optic Rage]

And, the trap has been sprung... And, the true detractors (Optic Rage, fortyseven, and Ingonyama) have been exsposed!

Congratulations, i am literally at a loss for words.

[Jake V]

And, the trap has been sprung... And, the true detractors (Optic Rage, fortyseven, and Ingonyama) have been exsposed!

My favorite thing about you, ZNOP (besides all your posts being in comic sans) is that somehow, everything you just wrote makes complete sense to you and only you. It's like performance art.

[fortyseven]

I'm just so confused.