SHE HAS NO HEAD: Is the Destruction of the Amazons the Destruction of Feminism at DC

[Mr. Holmes]

I've been here since the beginning of this run enjoying this but but I agree with the article. Before this point the Amazon's were given much needed complexity, but the whole murderous mating ritual is simply a step too far for my comfort. It just feels unnecessary and especially unbalanced. At what point could making the Amazons literal man haters be a good thing?

Who said it's supposed to be a "good thing?" I think the idea is that the Amazons have been manipulated horribly misguided by the goddesses to do these kind of things.

Did you read the annual where WW explained how the amazons struggled to build homes on the island for long years, and for thousands of years were keeping the creatures of doom's doorway at bay? you know, the ones that killed many of them over the years? I would hardly call that sitting around. They build their houses with their own hand, and were ready to sacrifice their lives as a penance. Yeah, what a bunch of lousy girls.

I don't think building houses addresses the problem 52 is pointing out.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

It was convenient to have them isolated, for Diana was supposed to come to to our world as a total newcomer without having suffered the prejudice against women, as it is part of the concept.

But within the concept that's not a decision the Amazons would have made had someone from the outside world not made contact. They were content living isolated from everyone else for millenia. And Diana wasn't supposed to do anything. She had to trick her mother and her people to get off the island.

[psyshot]

My grandmother could do that too, but she still used a modern stove.
The Amazons can't preach equality when they, themselves, don't practice it. They can't preach peace when even Paradise fell to war.

On this point I agree. The whole segregation/war with the banas was bad writing as it was totally forcing the amazons in a no-win situation and turned them into hysterical viragos. I liked the outcome though, as the island became more interesting after that (I'm not talking about the floating rocks, but the idea to have it open to all scholars and diplomates in the universe). Too bad it was abandoned after Jimenez left. It was a true progression of the mythos that should have stayed.

[psyshot]

Very true. The handful here who complain about this run have been doing so since the third issue, which they swore was the travesty of all travesties. Yet, they're still here with issue #7 and have found something new to clutch their pearls and smelling salts about. And they'll still be here in 4 months with more wailing and gnashing of teeth.

May I assume they're not paying to read this book?

I stopped reading with issue 6. But I'm still interested in the old WW, so that's why I'm still talking about it.

[Mecegirl]

Who said it's supposed to be a "good thing?" I think the idea is that the Amazons have been manipulated horribly misguided by the goddesses to do these kind of things.

I'm specifically talking about the representation of female characters and the impact this change has on female characters within this genre. If there were more female superheros with predominately female mentors then it would be possible to look at this as just another development in a story. That is unfortunately not the case.

[psyshot]

I don't think building houses addresses the problem 52 is pointing out.

I'm only pointing to the fact that nothing was really handed to them.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

Did you read the annual where WW explained how the amazons struggled to build homes on the island for long years, and for thousands of years were keeping the creatures of doom's doorway at bay? you know, the ones that killed many of them over the years? I would hardly call that sitting around. They build their houses with their own hand, and were ready to sacrifice their lives as a penance. Yeah, what a bunch of lousy girls.

Maybe you don't get it, but within the DCU, modern women found their power without any influence from the Amazons. They fought, bled, protested, cried, yelled, screamed, and died for it. They became mothers and passed their hopes and legacies on to their daughters, all while the Amazons were busy building houses. And now we've seen that women in the DCU have basically called out the Amazons and said "Where the hell were you when we were getting our asses kicked all these years?"

Perez knew this, and that's why he put Doom's Doorway beneath the island. But frankly I don't get why they couldn't reach out to the world around them and defend the Doorway. They can't walk and chew gum?

[Mecegirl]

Of course they couldn't leave doom's doorway. It was doom's doorway the entry way to Hades. Why would they leave such a threat with out the full protection of the Amazonian army? It was also a punishment they were not allowed to just flit off.

[psyshot]

Maybe you don't get it, but within the DCU, modern women found their power without any influence from the Amazons. The fought, bled, protested, cried, yelled, screamed, and died for it. They became mothers and passed their hopes and legacies on to their daughters, all while the Amazons were busy building houses. And now we've seen that women in the DCU have basically called out the Amazons and said "Where the hell were you when we were getting our asses kicked all these years?"

Perez knew this, and that's why he put Doom's Doorway beneath the island. But frankly I don't get why the couldn't reach out the world around them and defend the Doorway. They can't walk and chew gum?

I understand your point of view, but to get to the origin of the classic WW, the amazons had to be isolated and Steve Trevor had to be the first man to come to the island. That is the basic story. Like the kryptonians had to be contained to Krypton in order for Superman to be the last survivor of his race and raised by the Kents.

So Perez had Athena told the amazons not to leave the islands if they want to stay immortals and pure: "My daughters -- you have failed us! You have forgotten the source of your power -- forgotten the trust placed in you! For these failures, you must do a penance! one in which there is new honor -- new responsibility! We shall send you to an island -- beneath which lies an unspeakable evil! You shall be the jailers of that evil for all eternity! As long as you remain there and shirk not your new charge -- you shall live as immortals and your souls shall again become pure."

[psyshot]

Of course they couldn't leave doom's doorway. It was doom's doorway the entry way to Hades. Why would they leave such a threat with out the full protection of the Amazonian army? It was also a punishment they were not allowed to just flit off.

Thank you.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

Of course they couldn't leave doom's doorway. It was doom's doorway the entry way to Hades. Why would they leave such a threat with out the full protection of the Amazonian army? It was also a punishment they were not allowed to just flit off.

Yeah, but they weren't all guarding Doom's Doorway at the same time. The queen managed to have and raise a child during that time. There's no reason the DCU Amazons couldn't have played a role in the advancement of female causes throughout the world. They waited for the outside world to come to them, and by then women had already bore many a cross.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

I understand your point of view, but to get to the origin of the classic WW, the amazons had to be isolated and Steve Trevor had to be the first man to come to the island. That is the basic story. Like the kryptonians had to be contained to Krypton in order for Superman to be the last survivor of his race and raised by the Kents.

And what's changed, besides what you've learned about the Amazons via Hephaestus? Steve Trevor still landed on their island (now back in the Bermuda Triangle) and WW escorted him back.

So Perez had Athena told the amazons not to leave the islands if they want to stay immortals and pure: "My daughters -- you have failed us! You have forgotten the source of your power -- forgotten the trust placed in you! For these failures, you must do a penance! one in which there is new honor -- new responsibility! We shall send you to an island -- beneath which lies an unspeakable evil! You shall be the jailers of that evil for all eternity! As long as you remain there and shirk not your new charge -- you shall live as immortals and your souls shall again become pure."

So, the Amazons aren't about female empowerment, but stand as a cautionary tale of what happens when you defy authority. You become an example of loving submission due to your weakness and failure.

[EricAD]

I've been here since the beginning of this run enjoying this run and defending it but I agree with the article. Before this point the Amazon's were given much needed complexity, but the whole murderous mating ritual is simply a step too far for my comfort. It just feels unnecessary and especially unbalanced. At what point could making the Amazons literal man haters be a good thing? Even when they were simply an isolationist culture some people considered them man haters but now they are killing men after mating with them... It's just not a good look regardless of the future explanation.

They just took a superheroine who actually had a positive female centric origin and completely warped it with this revelation. If you put the story it a little bubble it wouldn't be a big deal but nothing happens in a vacuum. It would be nice to pretend that representation for the genders are equal for this genre ,but the fact is cape comics that focus on women cooperating with other women are rare. Cape comics that have female characters that are inspired by or trained by other women are rare.

The women involved don't need to be perfect to be empowering they need to be complex but heroic characters. I doubt that anyone would consider mass murder heroic. That only works if the character(s) are in the middle of a story about redemption and seeing as they have all been turned to snakes/stone that's not at all possible.

Mecegirl for President? You got my vote.

[psyshot]

Yeah, but they weren't all guarding Doom's Doorway at the same time. The queen managed to have and raise a child during that time. There's no reason the DCU Amazons couldn't have played a role in the advancement of female causes throughout the world. They waited for the outside world to come to them, and by then women had already bore many a cross.

You missed the part where they are given the choice: stay on the island with your responsibility and you'll be immortal and pure; I guess it bets avoiding responsibility, mortality and impurity. You also missed the part where they began interacting again with man's world after Doom's doorway was destroyed.
And you missed the part where they are supposed to stay isolated in order for WW to come into the modern world. Otherwise, why not have the series take place during 100 BC?

[Mecegirl]

Yeah, but they weren't all guarding Doom's Doorway at the same time. The queen managed to have and raise a child during that time. There's no reason the DCU Amazons couldn't have played a role in the advancement of female causes throughout the world. They waited for the outside world to come to them, and by then women had already bore many a cross.

Did you expect them to do nothing but sit in front of the gate?There is also the fact that in that run they were forbidden to leave the island while the guarded the gate.