how would you sync YJ superboy and nuDCU superboy?

[13th Superman]

Even if it's your opinion (which again goes without saying) I can still think you're wrong, and explain why.


So you agree that his personality is completely different and yet you're trying to argue that he's the same character.

Which of course means anyone can do the same towards your opinion. Honestly the back and forth will not go anywhere. We are all fans for different reasons and these reasons are no more valid than anyone else's. Despite the John's retcon, he's still the same guy. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, etc have gone through retcons were some of the changes didn't quite mesh with the established history (and yes fans complained)yet we still except them as the same individuals. Besides, people change, eras change, nothing stays the same. While I loved his old personality, he was becoming dated. That was a problem with many of the characters out of the 90's. His personality in Adventure Comics I think was a happy medium that reflected his old self and also displayed greater inner insight and maturity. That was his best portrayal to date.

[TomorrowTeen]

Even if it's your opinion (which again goes without saying) I can still think you're wrong, and explain why.

Same way I can still think you're wrong and explain why. Of course you can debate opinion here. I never said you couldn't. I just have a problem with some who blur the line between opinion and objective truth. Which does happen on these sites from time to time.

So you agree that his personality is completely different and yet you're trying to argue that he's the same character.

No, not completely different. I wanted him to be less emo(due to the woe is me Luthor's son bit), and smile a bit more like he used to. Adventure Comics under Geoff was heading towards that route. However part of the reason why I can say they are the same individual (at least in my eyes) was that I saw him as having grown more mature thanks in part to events like the death of Tana, Gaurdian (sort of), Impulse's scout, Cooper, the destruction of his apartment, meeting Black Zero, and so forth. Afterwards he stays with the Kents. So yeah, I figured he mellowed out after all that. It showed growth and that was fine with me.

[13th Superman]

his nudcu TTK is kinda like this,from sins of youth the young justice story from way back

increased....expanded

Man I miss this. You know its funny that the Kesel Superboy is the first version but it seems like the best middle ground between John's version and DCnu version. I did like how his tk field expanded, but I also liked how he had super hearing and heat vision in that same issue. He was made to be the closest genetic equivalent to Superman that advance science could create and it showed. Sigh nostalgia.

[Mr. Holmes]

Same way I can still think you're wrong and explain why. Of course you can debate opinion here. I never said you couldn't. I just have a problem with some who blur the line between opinion and objective truth. Which does happen on these sites from time to time.

The only one blurring the line between fact and opinion is you. 99% of things posted on a comic book message board are opinions. It goes without saying.

No, not completely different. I wanted him to be less emo(due to the woe is me Luthor's son bit), and smile a bit more like he used to. Adventure Comics under Geoff was heading towards that route. However part of the reason why I can say they are the same individual (at least in my eyes) was that I saw him as having grown more mature thanks in part to events like the death of Tana, Gaurdian (sort of), Impulse's scout, Cooper, the destruction of his apartment, meeting Black Zero, and so forth. Afterwards he stays with the Kents. So yeah, I figured he mellowed out after all that. It showed growth and that was fine with me.

Yes he did mature, and inspite of that his personality was still completely different from what Johns wrote. When he found out he was a clone of an asshole like Paul Westfield, he was disappointed, but got over. It's a complete contrast to how he kept moping about going evil when he found out he was half Lex.

[13th Superman]

This guy was awesome!

[13th Superman]

The only one blurring the line between fact and opinion is you. 99% of things posted on a comic book message board are opinions. It goes without saying.



Yes he did mature, and inspite of that his personality was still completely different from what Johns wrote. When he found out he was a clone of an asshole like Paul Westfield, he was disappointed, but got over. It's a complete contrast to how he kept moping about going evil when he found out he was half Lex.

However those opinions are based on certain set of facts. You can make your own opinions, but not your own facts unless of course you happen to be a writer of fiction /fantasy or a straight out liar. I've no problems with hypotheticals and speculation when it's stated. Someone could just come up here and tell me Superman is really from Queens or Daxam and be adamant about it so I would like to see some proof. Declarative statements like that can mislead people. I've seen plenty of misinformation spread by those either ignorant of information or those with the intent to mislead.

[13th Superman]

To your second quote, I perfectly agree with you. It was redundant. I glossed over it because at that time there was a transition going on in the Super books. Kara Zor El came back (and we lost Linda Danvers)and Superman was going through a retcon with Mark Waid's Superman:Birthright. When all that happened, all the things in the 90's changed or disappeared. Look at John Byrne's Cassandra Sandsmark versus what happened to her in the later Wonder Woman books. Everyone seemed to be getting updated and Superboy was no exception. With these "updates/retcons" came retelling of similar stories told in the past to reach out to newer readers or to give added dimensions. Did some of them need to happen? Yes and no. I'll admit that some characters may not have survived without the changes. I lost Matrix and then came to absolutely love Linda Danvers. When the no extra Kryptonian mandate was lifted Kara came back and I think that's when it was ok to make Superboy half kryptonian. I have to admit that without that change, I believe Superboy may have disappeared like Matrix/Linda or at least faded into obscurity.

[13th Superman]

Last post, it would actually be cool if Clara Kendall aka Tomorrow Woman was Superboy's mom. She was a an android created by Prof Ivo and TO Morrow but was later turned to a human with her powers in tact. It would help explain much.

[stephens2177]

damn how the heck can anybody even remotley start to talk about how to sync the show and comic version when we cant even agree on different comiv versions.

i have been a non wavering fan of SB since the Reign of the supermen,and i have alwaysenjoyed every version so far.yes they are very different,you could even say not the same character,but i always find that they all are superboy.

because there was no definitve SB the flashpoint reboot really was DCs chance to straighten out all of it,keep what was important,and throw out every lil bit of the rest.i think scott did a pretty good job of that,he has certain things that make you think of the kesel version,and certain things that make you think of the geoff version,then brand new everything else,to make one cohesive SB going forward.

i think scott went with geoffs clone of kal and lex,but with kesels TTK as his main power.personality wise i think its a lil closer to geoffs,but the cockiness of kesels.lookwise gave him a supersuit kinda like his second kesel suit,with fingerless gloves to boot,but had the S shield the black and red from geoffs version.the rest i think is scott,and im happy with this.

[C-Dot]

He did have a form of TTK (the aura) that's where they even got the idea for Superboy from. The aura was used to hold things in place while he lifted them and it was used to fly as well if im not mistaken. Though I will give you that Superboy's was more malleable but the base for it came from Superman's aura which you don't have to call TTK if you like. But my point is that their powers (Superman silver age and Superman 8os) may have worked differently but they still achieved the same goals and were look at the same.

That is part of the argument I make for the YJ Superboy's powers.

Where did it ever say in the book that Superman had tactile telekinesis? His powers actually being tactile telekinesis? Never stated. Last time that I checked, there was a mention of flying via a form of self-telekinesis and mention of invulnerability. But the aura was not tactile telekinesis because A: If Superman had it, the comics would have emphatically said so, B: The aura is not a telekinetic field because a telekinetic field was the end result of translating the aura for a human clone (Adventures of Superman #506). Tactile telekinesis was unique to one and the aura was unique to another. Apple and orange.

[C-Dot]

No need to give me the history lesson. I already know all of it. But again, I loved his personality and what his presence added to the Superman mythos but I wasn't hung up on the powers like some of the other fans. So yeah it was superficial to me. As long as he flew, could lift tremendous weights, and be invulnerable (hence kind of living up to the name so to speak) I didn't care how he did it. Same way I wasn't hung up on Matrix's powers either. With the exception of the emo thing I actually preferred the Geoff Johns retcon. Was never too crazy about Paul Westfield who I thought was pretty forgettable. I just wish Conner still behaved like his old self. Same case with Bart. He could still be Kid Flash (though I wouldn't have minded him staying as impulse) but at least keep his old lovable personality. But at the end of it all, we're just gonna have to disagree and leave it at that.

This is not about "history lessons". It's not even about being "hung up" on powers. This character isn't Clark. He's not even a Clark who wasn't raised by Kents or an everyday Superman. He was a character who was unique, his own person via his established personality and his powers that made him not a "Superman clone". You gush about the past series yet fail to realize that to a HUGE majority of people, his powers were a part of his popularity (and it wasn't "after" like you stated). He did more than "flew, could lift tremendous weights, and be invulnerable". He did so much more than that. That wrinkle to him and other wrinkles to the character made him stand out and many people loved the kid for that and what Kesel did. You said you like him for being a Superboy no matter the powers. But the powers in Kon-El the character was important and not superficial because it was a PART of who he was. He was more than just "Superboy". Same as Mae/Matrix (and later Linda) was more than just "Supergirl". These characters were more than their names and type....not reducing them to just being about their namesakes.

And I'm sorry, but Paul Westfield actually HAD a place in Superboy's story and origin like Tana, Dubbilex, etc. Luthor did not. Westfield ran the organization that created Superboy. Luthor did not. Westfield had motive and reason. Luthor did not. Westfield WANTED Superman resurrected. Luthor did not. So it's not even a comparison as to who made sense in the origin. You may think Westfield is this and that, but actual text in the story > opinion. He wasn't Luthor or trying to be Luthor. He wasn't a "wacked out scientist" either (Johns didn't even know that Westfield wasn't a scientist which showed me he didn't read much of it). He was in control of an organization and used his pull to create a Superman to replace the fallen one. And it made sense. A character who is actually in a story makes sense than one who was far away from it. Lex Luthor had no business in that origin and it totally contradicted his stance of wanting Superman to stay dead while Lex was in control of Metropolis again. And everything he did from stopping Cadmus in the first place to cloning Supergirl made no sense. And his reasoning? To create a clone to get close to a DEAD character? I mean come on. You mean to tell me you or whoever else can't see just how off that was in that Insiders arc (especially when Superboy had no mental codewords in him)?

All Johns retcon did was bulldoze a big chunk of Superboy's stories and shoehorned him into "Good because of Superman and evil because of Lex" with the character acting a complete 180 and becoming a different version. Reading the past series, Superboy was never about his genes or being Superman. At all. And it wasn't just him. Match and Project Cadmus were changed into something they were not. (In the latter's case, lackeys to Luthor when they were Luthor's enemies....because he personally stopped them for doing the very thing they ended up doing and that was making a clone of Superman.).

[stephens2177]

3.If Superboy gets his powers from Earth's yellow sun does that mean he'll developSupermans other powers like heat vision and flight?

Greg responds...

*He won't, but that's because of his human DNA.

greg weisman on his gargoyle page,where he answers all the YJ questions by the truckload.

so we have two options- stay as he is,or my opinion TTK.

[C-Dot]

Well the whole point of the tactile telekinesis power was that he wasn't just lifting tremendous weights. It was all about his mental power. So you may not care about it, but it gives a fundamentally different approach to how his powers function. It's not superficial at all.

His core personality was 100% different from before. By definition, he is not the same character.

Exactly.

He seemingly had similar abilities to Superman on the surface, but it ended up being radically different. He did things with his powers that Superman couldn't do and it was unique to him (until someone thought Chris Kent should rip him off). They could have just given him all of Superman's abilities and made him Clark Jr., but Kesel did it in an original way with extra thrown in. He was different and stood out just like the other Team Superman members.

And yes, "Kon-El" and "Conner Kent" are two different characters in species, character, powers, and core personality. When I first read Teen Titans #1, it wasn't just the "cloned from Superman" blurb that took me off guard (Me: "Since when is Superboy a clone of Superman and a scientist? They couldn't even clone Superman and who is the scientist?!") or the Lex mess (Me: "Did the writer even read Reign? Lex didn't even know about Superboy and tried to stop Cadmus from cloning Superman."). It was Superboy accrediting his character and who he was to Superman's genes overpowering a "whacked out scientist" instead of his own person.

Superboy was never about being who he was cloned from (because he sure wasn't Paul Westfield) or his genes (that had no "evil" in them plus they were radically changed). He was about the connection he had with the "S" and being Superboy, his own man, in his own unique way. Same as Steel, who wasn't Kryptonian as well, but was about the "S". It was "The adventures of Kon-El as a boy" and not Clark/Kal-El. This was the kid who was the cocky, trashtalking Superboy and didn't take crap from anyone (even Batman)....yet he was fun-loving, earnest, opinionated, strong willed, loyal to his friends and enjoyed being a hero and being alive. And we saw the kid grow under Kesel's pen to Marz to Kelly onward. He was still the same character to the core even when his world was rocked by death or when things changed or etc. Teen Titans was not that kid. Or even a matured version. He was a new take under a writer's pen that didn't match anything. Johns described him as a "hometown jock" and that was never his personality in any Superboy book whatsoever.

When he later questioned about having a soul and acting angst filled, that was it for me. This was supposed to be the same kid who said he had a soul because he existed blubbering about that based on that retcon? And it only got worse when it came to more angst and right back to the Luthor mess with a checklist about what Luthor or Clark would do instead of what Kon would do. Or before Blackest Night when he said he didn't use tactile telekinesis so he could be "like Superman" or no meaning reaction to Dubbilex's death or anything? But it was that first Teen Titans book that made me go "that's not Kon". And from what I read from other readers, I wasn't alone in that.

[C-Dot]

Which of course means anyone can do the same towards your opinion. Honestly the back and forth will not go anywhere. We are all fans for different reasons and these reasons are no more valid than anyone else's. Despite the John's retcon, he's still the same guy. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, etc have gone through retcons were some of the changes didn't quite mesh with the established history (and yes fans complained)yet we still except them as the same individuals. Besides, people change, eras change, nothing stays the same. While I loved his old personality, he was becoming dated. That was a problem with many of the characters out of the 90's. His personality in Adventure Comics I think was a happy medium that reflected his old self and also displayed greater inner insight and maturity. That was his best portrayal to date.

“Dated”? What?

His established personality was not dated by any means. As someone else stated here, the character grew before Titans and kept his core just like other characters did. Nightwing? Gar Logan? Wally West? Ditto. The list goes on of characters that grew and still kept their personalities. And being a “90’s character” had nothing to do with his core personality. You say that as if he was the same character in tone for years with no progression whatsoever and that's an untruth. Adventure Comics was still the same tune as Teen Titans. Still obsessing over his “heritage”, still “good because of Superman, evil because of Luthor”, still trying to be Superman/Clark, etc. It was not like the original version at all and the only single thing even reflected was a one page throwaway cameo of villains from Superboy’s old series. It was a continuation of Johns’ Superboy as expected and he acted as such.

And you’re wrong about “things change and eras change” because while things change, some things are still kept in regards to established characters in comics. There is a big difference between Superman being a Kryptonian with a retconned Krypton still exploding vs. Superman being the son of human Jonathan Kent and Kryptonian Lara Lor Van with a different origin and acting like a jerk ala Supreme with new powers. Or Carter Hall vs. Katar Hol. Not the same character despite name. And that is what happened with Kon-El (Kesel) and Conner Kent (Johns). They are not the same (one wasn't "made as a weapon", could actually date a relative of Superman, 100% human, didn't have redundant powers, etc.) and actually reading the comics and seeing where the differences lie shows that.

[13th Superman]

“Dated”? What?

His established personality was not dated by any means. As someone else stated here, the character grew before Titans and kept his core just like other characters did. Nightwing? Gar Logan? Wally West? Ditto. The list goes on of characters that grew and still kept their personalities. And being a “90’s character” had nothing to do with his core personality. You say that as if he was the same character in tone for years with no progression whatsoever and that's an untruth. Adventure Comics was still the same tune as Teen Titans. Still obsessing over his “heritage”, still “good because of Superman, evil because of Luthor”, still trying to be Superman/Clark, etc. It was not like the original version at all and the only single thing even reflected was a one page throwaway cameo of villains from Superboy’s old series. It was a continuation of Johns’ Superboy as expected and he acted as such.

And you’re wrong about “things change and eras change” because while things change, some things are still kept in regards to established characters in comics. There is a big difference between Superman being a Kryptonian with a retconned Krypton still exploding vs. Superman being the son of human Jonathan Kent and Kryptonian Lara Lor Van with a different origin and acting like a jerk ala Supreme with new powers. Or Carter Hall vs. Katar Hol. Not the same character despite name. And that is what happened with Kon-El (Kesel) and Conner Kent (Johns). They are not the same (one wasn't "made as a weapon", could actually date a relative of Superman, 100% human, didn't have redundant powers, etc.) and actually reading the comics and seeing where the differences lie shows that.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. You're happy to think I'm wrong and I respect you're opinion, but that's what I believe how he was looked at by others who didn't read about him or who just had a caricaturized view of him. Look I personally liked his old personality. I know full well how he progressed. I have every appearance of his since Adventure of Superman 500. I know full well about his life. Like the time he accidentally got Lois' pilot killed, learning from his mistakes with the BEM and Knockout, the discovery of Paul Westfield being his DNA donor, to Tana's death and so on. Arguably Joe Kelly's run regressed his development a bit like when he was practicing with Guardian and his relationship with Serling. But that's me being nitpicky. For many people who never knew much about him before when he first appeared and before John's retcon, he was still looked at as a clone of Superman. Yes Superman is from Krypton, but for Superboy, the public at large see him as a teenage clone of Superman who hasn't had Clark's upbringing. Again, for many people, that is the basic premise of Superboy. When you get into details about his creation and powers, that's when the confusion starts. As fans, we are in the know. We nitpick about details you just discussed, but I'm looking at the broader picture. You'll probably disagree with that too. That's fine by me.