Hawkeye x Spider-Woman as Marvel's new Super Couple

[XPac]

Lol. I didn't bother to reply, because it's obvious that I'm not gonna convince him, but the exact same thoughts crossed my mind. Thanks, Tommyman.

As for the Scarlet letter, or the character's reputation, is being a hussy that likes to dryhump her current mainsqueeze any time he enters the room any better? It's all in the hanleing of things. Currently she is a much more unlikable character for me than if she was conflicted for her powers having run out of her control and having forced a teammate to "fall in love" and have sex with her. It could be a mature way of exploring the theme of what constitutes rape, and who would people deal with it. But of course, Bendis always knows best. Nothing beats a punchline.

Peace

Let me approach it from another perspective then... everyone is someone else's favorite character. Would you want your favorite character essentially being painted as a rapist?

I'm not saying comics absolutely cannot go there... but it's something in the least you want to be very very cautious of doing. Again, because of the real life stigma that hovers around the subject, it has the same potential to stick with the character as the Pym slap. And because Jessica isn't a character with her own on-going title, it could be the story that defines her as a character for this generation of readers. Because she frankly hasn't done anything else.

Characters like Iron Man and Spider-Man are rarely defined by a single story because they have so much story output. They can survive a Civil War or a One More Day and move on. A character like a Pym or a Jessica are more vulnerable to being weighed down by this sort of thing, because they do so much less. So you really need to think VERY carefully before you decide to have your super heroes start raping people... again, it's not something to take lightly at all.

[Nomads1]

From what I've read, Jess does have awareness when she's using her pheromones and it's something that she is extremely careful of and sensitive to. Even if no one else did see it as rape, she would. Having been manipulated/used by HYDRA and the Skrulls, her going that route with Clint would be devastating and detrimental to her character. It's similar to why people were so upset with Bendis for having Carol joke about Jess using her pheromones on some surfer dude to get laid, because having been through what Carol had with Marcus, the whole thing was out of character and inappropriate. I mean Jess is certainly no saint, and I wouldn't want her to be, but for her to go down that route, would push her character too far to the dark. There's so much else to explore with her- her rage, hurt and willingness to kill after the Skrull situation which was kind of left hanging with the end of the Spider-Woman S.W.O.R.D. series, her identity issues, her friendships with various characters, especially someone like Carol who was very close to VerankeJess and just the disconnect there in those relationships, that making her the rapist of a friend would be unnecessary and most likely a terrible idea.

Fair enough. I don't see it quite like that. Well handled, still think it might be an intresting move for all involved. But, that's just me. Everyone is free to feel differently.

Peace

[Nomads1]

Let me approach it from another perspective then... everyone is someone else's favorite character. Would you want your favorite character essentially being painted as a rapist?

For the sake of discussion. Hank Pym is a wife beater (at least, that how most see him), Tony Stark is an alcholic, Peter Parker is a mama's (or aunt's) boy who made a Deal with the Devil. Bobbi Morse is a pare victim. Carol Danvers is a rape victim and an alcoholic, etc... If you play it safe, if you're not gonna break the envelope, what's the point? Of course, as I've said, it's all in the hanling. Not all the stories I mentioned were, IMHO, good. Even if well handled, some people may still stgmatize Jessica as a rapist (look at the wife beater), however, it's stange that I, the classic Avengers fan, "who is so enamored with the stories of my childhood, who is always against change," is open to this, while you, the Bendis fan, "who pushed the Avengers into the New Millenium, who is telling new stories, yadda, yadda, yadda," is so catious about it.

I'm not saying comics absolutely cannot go there... but it's something in the least you want to be very very cautious of doing. Again, because of the real life stigma that hovers around the subject, it has the same potential to stick with the character as the Pym slap. And because Jessica isn't a character with her own on-going title, it could be the story that defines her as a character for this generation of readers. Because she frankly hasn't done anything else.

Here, we are in complete agreement. 100%

Characters like Iron Man and Spider-Man are rarely defined by a single story because they have so much story output. They can survive a Civil War or a One More Day and move on.

Not always. Read above.

A character like a Pym or a Jessica are more vulnerable to being weighed down by this sort of thing, because they do so much less. So you really need to think VERY carefully before you decide to have your super heroes start raping people... again, it's not something to take lightly at all.

Once more, agreed. But I'm just suggesting a hypothetical story direction, always stressing that "if well-handled." However, imagine if people felt icky about making Batman and old guy who was possesed by a bat-like entity, and who made a girl his new Robin? Or if they thought making one of the original X-Men an evil plantet destroying bitch who then has to be put down? The groundbreaking stuff has to come from somewhere.

PS: Admitedly, I'm talking a good fight on this, but there are pleanty of places I'd rather not go also.

Peace

[XPac]

For the sake of discussion. Hank Pym is a wife beater (at least, that how most see him), Tony Stark is an alcholic, Peter Parker is a mama's (or aunt's) boy who made a Deal with the Devil. Bobbi Morse is a pare victim. Carol Danvers is a rape victim and an alcoholic, etc... If you play it safe, if you're not gonna break the envelope, what's the point? Of course, as I've said, it's all in the hanling. Not all the stories I mentioned were, IMHO, good. Even if well handled, some people may still stgmatize Jessica as a rapist (look at the wife beater), however, it's stange that I, the classic Avengers fan, "who is so enamored with the stories of my childhood, who is always against change," is open to this, while you, the Bendis fan, "who pushed the Avengers into the New Millenium, who is telling new stories, yadda, yadda, yadda," is so catious about it.



Here, we are in complete agreement. 100%



Not always. Read above.

Once more, agreed. But I'm just suggesting a hypothetical story direction, always stressing that "if well-handled." However, imagine if people felt icky about making Batman and old guy who was possesed by a bat-like entity, and who made a girl his new Robin? Or if they thought making one of the original X-Men an evil plantet destroying bitch who then has to be put down? The groundbreaking stuff has to come from somewhere.

PS: Admitedly, I'm talking a good fight on this, but there are pleanty of places I'd rather not go also.

Peace

I don't think it's strange that any fan, new or classic, is going to be a bit overly caution over the notion of turning a hero into a rapist.

[lilyinblue]

I don't think it's strange that any fan, new or classic, is going to be a bit overly caution over the notion of turning a hero into a rapist.

Agreed... I really don't think liking/hating change or "groundbreaking" stories is really the issue here... new or classic aside.

Unlike bat entities and phoenix forces... rape is something that happens in the real world and has destroyed the lives of real people that may or may not be close to us. It shouldn't be surprising that it's something that triggers a much more visceral response from people.

[tommyman]

I disagree. The Spider-Women aren't interchangable like the Phantom Riders essentially were.

For the Phantom Rider all it essentially meant was that the current one could be empowered by the first rather than the second. It's a very minimal change.

For Jessica, the current active Spider-Woman it means having to carry that baggage around. Rape is a pretty scarlet letter you're knitting on a character... that has the potential for staying with a character the same way the Pym slap did. It's not something you want to take lightly... if you go there you need to be sure it's really worth it.

I hope it was apparent that I was being a bit fatuous in my reply.
If such a story were done, (and I'm not sure it should be, mainly because it retreads some of the ground the very uncomfortable to read She-Hulk/Starfox story covered), I'd like somebody like Gage to do it, and it to be treated fairly seriously.
The Bendis Purple Man Alias stories made me queasy too, even though I thought it was some of his best work.
It's just such a difficult subject to get right, and not trivialize or sensationalize by dealing with in "entertainment".
And I'm sympathetic to not wanting a favoured character to be pretty much ruined for one story, particularly if it's not even an original story and some other character already got written off doing the same thing.
So as much as the current Spider Woman (Bendis version) bores and annoys me, I'd probably be against such a move, even if it has the added wrinkle of it being a woman abusing her powers not a man.

[Nomads1]

I hope it was apparent that I was being a bit fatuous in my reply.
If such a story were done, (and I'm not sure it should be, mainly because it retreads some of the ground the very uncomfortable to read She-Hulk/Starfox story covered), I'd like somebody like Gage to do it, and it to be treated fairly seriously.
The Bendis Purple Man Alias stories made me queasy too, even though I thought it was some of his best work.
It's just such a difficult subject to get right, and not trivialize or sensationalize by dealing with in "entertainment".
And I'm sympathetic to not wanting a favoured character to be pretty much ruined for one story, particularly if it's not even an original story and some other character already got written off doing the same thing.
So as much as the current Spider Woman (Bendis version) bores and annoys me, I'd probably be against such a move, even if it has the added wrinkle of it being a woman abusing her powers not a man.

Forgot about that one. Even though I like Slott, it did leave a bad taste in the mouth. Not what I was suggesting though, but similar enough.

Peace

[Hrist]

Lol. I didn't bother to reply, because it's obvious that I'm not gonna convince him, but the exact same thoughts crossed my mind. Thanks, Tommyman.

As for the Scarlet letter, or the character's reputation, is being a hussy that likes to dryhump her current mainsqueeze any time he enters the room any better? It's all in the handleing of things. Currently she is a much more unlikable character for me than if she was conflicted for her powers having run out of her control and having forced a teammate to "fall in love" and have sex with her. It could be a mature way of exploring the theme of what constitutes rape, and who would people deal with it. But of course, Bendis always knows best. Nothing beats a punchline.

Peace

Oh my god, of course being a rapist is worse than being a "a hussy that likes to dryhump" — there's nothing really wrong with acting like a teenager, there is everything wrong with rape. One of those is Bendis's momentary bad writing, one is evil. And really, this doesn't sound like a mature way of exploring rape, it sounds like edge for the sake of edge.

Really though, equating being a rapist with being promiscuous (which Jess really isn't— she makes out with Clint a bunch, but they aren't being obscene) is such a horrendously offensive thing. I'm actually pretty angry about it, as someone who has been sexually assaulted.

[Nomads1]

Oh my god, of course being a rapist is worse than being a "a hussy that likes to dryhump" — there's nothing really wrong with acting like a teenager, there is everything wrong with rape. One of those is Bendis's momentary bad writing, one is evil. And really, this doesn't sound like a mature way of exploring rape, it sounds like edge for the sake of edge.

Really though, equating being a rapist with being promiscuous (which Jess really isn't— she makes out with Clint a bunch, but they aren't being obscene) is such a horrendously offensive thing. I'm actually pretty angry about it, as someone who has been sexually assaulted.

I apologize if my comments have offended you. It was not my intent. Though certainly not as deeply as you, I've had my life affected by sexual assult. I was merley talking about possibilities of storylines for a fictional character. I actually posted that there would be doubts if the unconscious use of her powers, which was my suggestion, would actually make her a rapist. Never wanted to go the way of her an Carol joking about it, like Bendis did, which I thought was tasteless, considering who was doing the joking. Not here to dig up unpleasent memories for anyone. Consider the subject dropped in my part.

Peace

[Darthfury78]

Brian Bradley’s quote on his preview on The New Avengers, vol. 2 #28:

“Spider-Woman’s moment is tarnished when Bendis uses this as another opportunity to reference her romantic involvement with Hawkeye. This lovers’ interaction was probably the only reason Hawkeye and Spider-Woman are in this New Avengers’ book to begin with. The reference to Spider-Woman’s killer rack and the “thing” on Hawkeye’s butt were the only downside that brought me out of this Avengers’ Great Escape-like story.”

I feel that Brian Bendis view on Hawkeye x Spider-Woman is blatantly forced down the readers throats. There is really no interesting dialog between them other than making out with each other, whereas Spider-Man x Ms. Marvel’s relationship is talking its time. The problem is that I just don’t feel that the relationship between Hawkeye x Spider-Woman is going to last very long once Bendis leaves the Avengers. I am biases on the interaction between Spider-Man x Spider-Woman, it seems like Marvel wants to promote Hawkeye x Spider-Woman to promote their love for each other since they feel that Spider-Man x Spider-Woman is too obvious.

[Exo]

Yes, they were born for each other!

[baltiroo]

I don't think that their relationship will last because of the movieverse Hawkeye & Black Widow. Even Avengers Assemble got in on that. We'll see though.

[Darthfury78]

I don't think that their relationship will last because of the movieverse Hawkeye & Black Widow. Even Avengers Assemble got in on that. We'll see though.

Well, since there is a relationship between Daredevil & Black Cat as well as Hawkeye & Spider-Woman, why don't we see The Black Widow & Spider-Man for once?

[lilyinblue]

Well, since there is a relationship between Daredevil & Black Cat as well as Hawkeye & Spider-Woman, why don't we see The Black Widow & Spider-Man for once?

Two Words:

Winter. Soldier.

[rogerio]

Well, since there is a relationship between Daredevil & Black Cat as well as Hawkeye & Spider-Woman, why don't we see The Black Widow & Spider-Man for once?

Because Natalia Alianovna Romanova is way out of Peter league.
Sorry, Darthfury.