Hawkeye x Spider-Woman as Marvel's new Super Couple

[Monty_Cristo]

See, this is why I think Bobbi would have worked as a solo title - being a low-powered, more grounded book that can draw on the superhero setting but not get too tied up in the over-fantastical. It's a niche that I don't think Marvel has filled very well, and yet the core concept can clearly sell books, as DC have proved.

i think it might have been pretty cool. she's a different kind of "secret agent" than someone like Black Widow because she's american, a lab jockey, and far less experienced. in my head, it's the kind of role that i'd expect 90s Sarah Michelle Gellar to play on tv.

Marvel have it muddied; Bendis clearly wanted Jessica Drew to fill the niche but is spinning far too many plates to have ever made it work, but his efforts have seemingly dissuaded the editorial teams from bringing something new (and ideally Bobbi-shaped) to the table. Heck, I'd settle for a Widow / Bobbi / Jessica spy book at this point.

it's not Jessica Drew's niche. i wish they'd get away from that. Jessica was an investigator; unaffiliated with a spy agency (because it was something she was trying to get away from).

[Lady_Alternate]

I would LOVE and Songbird/Mockingbird team up. No Snowbird (too powerful). Add some other chick too, without a ton of focus to make it interesting. Maybe Moondragon or Stacy X.

Moondragon is a Cosmic-level psychic, so not at all really suited to this sort of "low-powered espionage" thing without Deus Ex Machina-ing every story arc.

i think it might have been pretty cool. she's a different kind of "secret agent" than someone like Black Widow because she's american, a lab jockey, and far less experienced. in my head, it's the kind of role that i'd expect 90s Sarah Michelle Gellar to play on tv.

Yeah, I love the mix of brains, compassion and skill that make up Bobbi, and I think she'd be a really accessible character for new readers to identify with, while retaining her tortured & torrid but empowering past.

it's not Jessica Drew's niche. i wish they'd get away from that. Jessica was an investigator; unaffiliated with a spy agency (because it was something she was trying to get away from).

That's kinda why I think a team up with Bobbi and the WCA would fit her quite well - "Independent Spies" in something of a 'Chuck' mould. Ohh, but that would make it perfect for Jessica to date Clint then (however briefly) so as to provide some cutting banter while on missions...

[Hrist]

As a general rule, with very few exceptions, I prefer super-heroes to date outside of the super-heroic circles. When two established super-heroes get involved with each other, it has to be VERY well-done. From what little I have read, that was not the case with this.

For characters like Clint and Jessica, who don't have their own titles very frequently, it's very difficult to give them a love life at all if it's not with one of their teammates, or someone else who does have a book. Characters like Spider-man and Daredevil have ample time devoted to their civilian lives and civilian relationships, but there just isn't enough room for every memeber of the Avengers to have that kind of focus. And that's why, historically, the X-men and Avengers books have looked at their superhero cast for the soap opera stuff. I do think there are some unique ways Hero/Hero relationships can go wrong, compared to Hero/Civilian relationships — but I also think that if you chuck the soap opera stuff out of team books the result is often kind of boring. (Look at Brubaker's SA run.)

Anyway, regarding Spider-woman/Hawkeye, I don't have a problem with it in theory. Clint just broke up with Bobbi, he's on the rebound a bit, tends to make horrible romantic decisions, and has a ~thing~ for secret agents. Bendis has spent a lot of time explaining how Jessica feels lonely and isolated, so I can see why an ongoing flirtation might flatter/appeal to her. That doesn't mean it makes sense as a long-term thing: they don't have a lot in common apart from being Avengers, and most of the problems Clint had with Bobbi (he couldn't really take seeing her so wrecked by the skrulls, he couldn't deal with her spy career) would no doubt pop up with Clint and Jessica. But as a casual flirtation that eventually leads nowhere, yeah, I can see it.

I don't think Bendis has done much to sell the couple, though, or make their interactions interesting.

[Monty_Cristo]

I don't think Bendis has done much to sell the couple, though, or make their interactions interesting.

maybe. but i kind of feel like the relationship has been shoved down my throat. they were making out on the cover. they had several panels of Clint giving her the "i wanna screw" face from across the room. and the solicit felt the need to lie with "in this issue, two avengers take their relationship to the next level."

[lilyinblue]

and the solicit felt the need to lie with "in this issue, two avengers take their relationship to the next level."

Ah. Good to know I wasn't the only one thinking the same thing. I noticed that this was conspicuously absent.

[Lady_Alternate]

they had several panels of Clint giving her the "i wanna screw" face from across the room.

That's Clint's normal face!

Oh, come on, a highlight of The Children's Crusade was the panel where Clint found out he'd had sex with a Doombot.

[Monty_Cristo]

That's Clint's normal face!

Oh, come on, a highlight of The Children's Crusade was the panel where Clint found out he'd had sex with a Doombot.

well you have a point about his face. but it just seemed like a waste of panel. it made Bobbi look like some jealous harpy when she was the one who broke off the relationship.

[lilyinblue]

well you have a point about his face. but it just seemed like a waste of panel. it made Bobbi look like some jealous harpy when she was the one who broke off the relationship.

Similarly, the brief mention of this relationship in Fearless was one of the very few bits that made me cringe in what's an otherwise fantastic series.

[Lady_Alternate]

well you have a point about his face. but it just seemed like a waste of panel. it made Bobbi look like some jealous harpy when she was the one who broke off the relationship.

I agree - the panel came across as Bobbi appearing bitter and jealous towards Jess, where, if anything, her ire would be directed squarely at Mr "Porkeye" Barton.

You know, when she's back from being a cheeky scamp gadabouting across history, I'd love a random four horizontal panel page where Hawkeye wakes up, realises he's in bed with Moonstone, pauses and then finishes with "I've made a terrible mistake", a haunted look on his face.

[Hrist]

maybe. but i kind of feel like the relationship has been shoved down my throat. they were making out on the cover. they had several panels of Clint giving her the "i wanna screw" face from across the room. and the solicit felt the need to lie with "in this issue, two avengers take their relationship to the next level."

When I say "sell the couple", I don't mean in terms of shoving them in our face, I meant in terms of making them interesting & appealing together. He hasn't made them fun to read about.

I agree with everyone who is saying the use of Bobbi as jealous ex-lover is uncomfortable and awkward. I wish they'd cut that out.

[XPac]

When I say "sell the couple", I don't mean in terms of shoving them in our face, I meant in terms of making them interesting & appealing together. He hasn't made them fun to read about.

I agree with everyone who is saying the use of Bobbi as jealous ex-lover is uncomfortable and awkward. I wish they'd cut that out.

I think it's understandable that Mock is a bit uncomfortable with Clint dating someone else. It's not like she's acting uber jeolous or anything... but it's clearly a bit awkward for Mock and it should be.

If the roles were reversed and Mock was making out with someone else I'll wager Clint would be pretty uncomfortable about that.

[Hambone]

Bobbi - "I was kidnapped, brainwashed and raped by a madman."
Clint - "You... you CHEATED ON ME?!?!?!?!"
Women of the world - "Oh, hell no."

It's been awhile since I read that scene, but I was under the impression that Clint was angry at her because she killed Phantom Rider, not because she cheated on him. (This was back in the day when Avengers didn't kill. Nowadays, almost every Avenger has taken a life, even Spidey, although his was completely by accident.)

[Lady_Alternate]

I think it's understandable that Mock is a bit uncomfortable with Clint dating someone else. It's not like she's acting uber jeolous or anything... but it's clearly a bit awkward for Mock and it should be.

If the roles were reversed and Mock was making out with someone else I'll wager Clint would be pretty uncomfortable about that.

I don't think any of us doubt the uncomfortable aspect, but I firmly believe that Bobbi would be uncomfortable with Clint parading his libido in front of her and among their friends, rather than any sort of jealousy directed against his new partner.

Clint, on the other hand, goes a little crazy when Dominic Fortune takes any opportunity to flirt at Bobbi in his presence in the minis. All in all I'd say recent portrayals show Bobbi to be the more emotionally mature of the pair by some margin, especially considering the Skrull mind games based around love.

It's been awhile since I read that scene, but I was under the impression that Clint was angry at her because she killed Phantom Rider, not because she cheated on him. (This was back in the day when Avengers didn't kill. Nowadays, almost every Avenger has taken a life, even Spidey, although his was completely by accident.)

The indignation over lying came first, then over allowing Phantom Rider to die. And all the while I was thinking "here's the woman that loves you, and whom you love, telling you how she had terrible, awful things done to her by a man and you're upset and shouting because she was so scared and hurt that she couldn't admit that to you." Even back then, it was clear that she didn't kill the Phantom Rider; she just didn't save him, and I believe that's a justifiable reaction from an abused woman faced with the peril of her abuser.

[Nomads1]

For characters like Clint and Jessica, who don't have their own titles very frequently, it's very difficult to give them a love life at all if it's not with one of their teammates, or someone else who does have a book. Characters like Spider-man and Daredevil have ample time devoted to their civilian lives and civilian relationships, but there just isn't enough room for every memeber of the Avengers to have that kind of focus. And that's why, historically, the X-men and Avengers books have looked at their superhero cast for the soap opera stuff. I do think there are some unique ways Hero/Hero relationships can go wrong, compared to Hero/Civilian relationships — but I also think that if you chuck the soap opera stuff out of team books the result is often kind of boring. (Look at Brubaker's SA run.)

Anyway, regarding Spider-woman/Hawkeye, I don't have a problem with it in theory. Clint just broke up with Bobbi, he's on the rebound a bit, tends to make horrible romantic decisions, and has a ~thing~ for secret agents. Bendis has spent a lot of time explaining how Jessica feels lonely and isolated, so I can see why an ongoing flirtation might flatter/appeal to her. That doesn't mean it makes sense as a long-term thing: they don't have a lot in common apart from being Avengers, and most of the problems Clint had with Bobbi (he couldn't really take seeing her so wrecked by the skrulls, he couldn't deal with her spy career) would no doubt pop up with Clint and Jessica. But as a casual flirtation that eventually leads nowhere, yeah, I can see it.

I don't think Bendis has done much to sell the couple, though, or make their interactions interesting.

You make a good point there, but I still think it can and has been done before, even if, most of the time, it ends up not being very permanent and change from writer to writer. Before he left Avengers, Roger Stern was setting up the female Captain Marvel with FBI agent Derek Freeman, who ended up being the brother of future Avengers liason Dwayne Freeman, and I think it had everything to have been an awsome relationship. Both Cyclops and Magneto briefly had relationships with boat captain Lee Forrester. During Harras run Herc fell in love with a normal woman who worked with children (teacher?), true, she ended up not being exactly that, but that's beside the point. Atlas feel in love with city hall liason Dallas Riordan. Even Steve and Sharon Carter can be seen as super-hero dating non-super-hero. Johnny Storm and his endless array of girlfriends. Ben Grimm and Alicia Masters. Wolverine and Mariko Yashida. And the list goes on and on...
When SH gets involved with SH, even if it's meant to be casual, or temporary, I prefer it to be a plot point, leading to a far-reaching storyline, similar to the Crystal - Dane Withman - Sersi triangle, the Hank Pym - Firebird romance, who ended up not happening, or even the Vision and Scarlet Witch marriage.

Peace

[Hrist]

I think it's understandable that Mock is a bit uncomfortable with Clint dating someone else. It's not like she's acting uber jeolous or anything... but it's clearly a bit awkward for Mock and it should be.

If the roles were reversed and Mock was making out with someone else I'll wager Clint would be pretty uncomfortable about that.

I think some discomfort is understandable, but a) she's not just uncomfortable, I think she's been shown as jealous and a bit mean and b) that's all she's being used for. It's not like they're telling a story where Bobbi feels understandably awkward but still tries to move on with her life, they're telling a story where Clint and Jessica are making out and Bobbi sometimes shows up to glare at them. (While Carol and Jessica point and gossip.)

Admittedly it's not as bad as all that, but it's pretty easy to fall into a "crazy ex-girlfriend" cliche, so I worry, especially if they keep cutting to Bobbi's reaction to all this, instead of just letting it be a one-time gag.