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  1. #136
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Spider-Man/Human Torch is just a lovely, lovely comic. :-)

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juxtapozed View Post
    Spider-Man/Human Torch is just a lovely, lovely comic. :-)
    Seconded!!!!!!
    - Jason G. Carr

  3. #138
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    2: I hate Amazing + PP #18 not just because of the Goblin resolution (or lack of resolution) and Peter living on the streets as a homeless person after turning down Aunt May's offer. But also because Flash and Liz each giving him the worst crap they possibly could. I'm surprised Peter ever talked to either of them again (although Liz is mostly gone from the series at this point anyway and barely ever appears).
    You know, I'd heard about these issues, (they topped JR/Madgoblin's list of the worst Spidey stories ever for a long while), but I never had the chance to read them until the Next Chapter trades. And what I found was...they were too poorly written to make me angry. Intellectually, I knew that this should piss me off. But the writing is so forced, and the conflict so unengaging that I walked away more apathetic than irritated.

    (The one good thing I'll say about them is that the Faux-Goblin's identity crisis would have been interesting if he wasn't, well, the fifth Green Goblin and it wasn't a cop-out ending to a much more interesting plot line. If the third Peter Parker had grappled with this instead of becoming Spidercide, he might have sucked less.)

    3: Jenkins PP work was great. I wasn't as wild about his Spectacular (with a few exceptions). I also heard he skipped out on doing Sins Remembered (good man),
    I've become disturbingly aware of the fact that to people who are only casual Spidey fans, Jenkins is apparently going down in history as the guy who turned Pete into a giant spider that gave birth to himself. But...but "One Small Break!"


    5: Good luck trying to fit Marvel Knights Spider-Man with The Pulse. Mark Millar's MK Spidey is one of the most pure fun Spidey stories but it cheats.
    Okay, here's how I understood the series of events: The first four issues of Pulse happen prior to MK Spidey #1. When the police show up to arrest the Goblin, he flies off, Spidey pursues, and most of their battle happens off-panal. (Augh!) MK Spidey #1 starts at the end of that battle, and Spidey finishes the Goblin off. At a later point, Osborn is being driven to the courthouse, Cage ambushes him, and Spidey intervenes.

    Granted, I haven't read them in a while; is there a plot point I overlooked?

    7: Spidey is joining the Avengers soon. It will seem weird if you're just reading the Spidey books.
    It's also one of only two JMS arcs I really enjoyed. Not a JMS fan, I'm afraid.

    8: Speaking of crossovers. Civil War. That's gonna seem unwieldy if you're just reading Spider-Man. (Although Civil War was pretty damn unwieldy even if you do read it and other tie-ins.)
    Oh my ghod, screw Civil War, and screw "The War At Home". Sensational Spidey is very good during this run, though.

  4. #139
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Random other thoughts as i continue reading....

    1) These people are getting awfully cavelier about revealing Spider-Man's identity. That random Indian chick, Ezekiel, Shathra, he's almost been rendered a non-secret. I understand what they're trying to do generally, to cut off his means of escape. But that's really not necessary. He never can escape himself. With Morlun I didn't mind as much because it played into his limited powerset. But starting to get a little tired of it.

    2) It also feels like his webbing has been downgraded significantly. Everyone can break the stuff at this point. I liked it better when they were coming up with creative ways to make it not stick rather than just giving every baddie the strength to pull through. In fact, in general Spider-Man's strength seems to have taken a hit. There's an annual where Spidey categorizes himself and other heroes based on strength, and he wasn't the top tier, but he was close.

    3) I see JMS is also the origin of the goofier Spider-Man. I am slightly disappointed. He write Peter so well, but he makes the same basic mistake with Spider-Man that I see in the modern stories and just throws him into the "goofball Johnny Storm" category. That's..not quite right. There are different styles of humor. Spider-Man should skew closer to Seinfeld than Carrot Top. Old comics gave him a sort of biting sarcastic wit. He still does those lines sometimes, but they've expanded on it greatly. It's a bit of a flanderization.

    4) Also, Sandman. I don't like how they made him a bad guy again. I was happy with where he ended up. Randomly having him go evil and then giving a random hand-wave explanation in a back-up is just kinda lame.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  5. #140
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    1) These people are getting awfully cavelier about revealing Spider-Man's identity. That random Indian chick, Ezekiel, Shathra, he's almost been rendered a non-secret. I understand what they're trying to do generally, to cut off his means of escape. But that's really not necessary. He never can escape himself. With Morlun I didn't mind as much because it played into his limited powerset. But starting to get a little tired of it.
    This isn't going to stop, and it was commented on a great deal at the time. Prior to the unmasking, Ben Urich, Luke Cage, the FF, Doctor Strange, Maria Hill, and the rest of the New Avengers would already know who Spidey is. And while I'm not opposed to some of Pete's pals and team mates knowing, (Particularly guys like Stark or Cap, who wouldn't cross paths with civilian Pete very often, anyway), it did get a bit ridiculous by the end.


    3) I see JMS is also the origin of the goofier Spider-Man. I am slightly disappointed. He write Peter so well, but he makes the same basic mistake with Spider-Man that I see in the modern stories and just throws him into the "goofball Johnny Storm" category. That's..not quite right. There are different styles of humor. Spider-Man should skew closer to Seinfeld than Carrot Top. Old comics gave him a sort of biting sarcastic wit. He still does those lines sometimes, but they've expanded on it greatly. It's a bit of a flanderization.
    As someone who didn't like JMS' run, I actually get what he's going for with this. I think he's trying to make Peter a motormouthed New Yorker, but I do agree he overplays it at times, particularly when it actually stops the action. IMHO, it worked much better as Peter's internal monologue than as constant quipping.

    (Then again, humor is incredibly subjective, so maybe I just didn't get the joke.)

    4) Also, Sandman. I don't like how they made him a bad guy again. I was happy with where he ended up. Randomly having him go evil and then giving a random hand-wave explanation in a back-up is just kinda lame.
    So, you're at those odd MTV parody issues, or perhaps the darker split-personality issues? Both are by Zeb Wells, and I recall that a lot of people hated the former, and Wells even pokes fun at them in the latter. (I thought it worked okay, myself. But I was actually in MTV's target demo when they came out, and the skewering of that culture was much appreciated.)

    I give Wells credit for actually trying to make a damn story out of the Sandman's return to villainy, as opposed to the incredibly literal case of "a (wingless) Wizard did it." My interpretation of the split-personality issues is that the Wizard's influence was just one of several stressful factors that resulted in the Sandman's psyche getting pulled apart (among a lifetime of self-image issues and the trauma suffered due to Venom's bite and his physical dissolution), and that when Sandy returns to villainy, it's actually his own choice, and he's overcome the Wizard's influence. But those issues are a bit symbolic in places, and open to interpretation.

    And similar to our differing opinions on Norms, we probably don't see eye to eye on this one, either. I actually prefer the Sandman as a villain, because it makes him a more interesting character: he's a super villain who's also a legitimately nice and reasonable person. I know this probably isn't true, but I'd prefer it if he'd never actually killed anyone (Ignoring the Gauntlet storyline, where he was arguably not in his right mind), because, really, a guy with his power set wouldn't have to.

  6. #141
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E. Wilson View Post
    You know, I'd heard about these issues, (they topped JR/Madgoblin's list of the worst Spidey stories ever for a long while), but I never had the chance to read them until the Next Chapter trades. And what I found was...they were too poorly written to make me angry. Intellectually, I knew that this should piss me off. But the writing is so forced, and the conflict so unengaging that I walked away more apathetic than irritated.

    (The one good thing I'll say about them is that the Faux-Goblin's identity crisis would have been interesting if he wasn't, well, the fifth Green Goblin and it wasn't a cop-out ending to a much more interesting plot line. If the third Peter Parker had grappled with this instead of becoming Spidercide, he might have sucked less.)
    It's really bad. I read that stuff as it was coming out and walked away from Spidey until Jenkins. And that also led to me having to track the back issues because it took me awhile to get into the Jenkins stuff.

    I've become disturbingly aware of the fact that to people who are only casual Spidey fans, Jenkins is apparently going down in history as the guy who turned Pete into a giant spider that gave birth to himself. But...but "One Small Break!"
    The Queen's first story will be really weird to someone who read Spider Island first. Mostly on the "really? They actually did use her again?"

    Okay, here's how I understood the series of events: The first four issues of Pulse happen prior to MK Spidey #1. When the police show up to arrest the Goblin, he flies off, Spidey pursues, and most of their battle happens off-panal. (Augh!) MK Spidey #1 starts at the end of that battle, and Spidey finishes the Goblin off. At a later point, Osborn is being driven to the courthouse, Cage ambushes him, and Spidey intervenes.

    Granted, I haven't read them in a while; is there a plot point I overlooked?
    I haven't read them in awhile. And I read them independently of each other. (Maybe a year or so apart.)

    The connection isn't really firmly established, IIRC. It just reads a little weirdly if you aren't paying super close to the details.

    It's also one of only two JMS arcs I really enjoyed. Not a JMS fan, I'm afraid.
    He had his pluses and minuses. But his New Avengers arc may have been the most fun. Where else would we see Aunt May putting Wolverine in his place?

    Oh my ghod, screw Civil War, and screw "The War At Home". Sensational Spidey is very good during this run, though.
    Marvel's Civil War can be incredibly frustrating.

    (I think it would have actually been better if Bendis wrote it.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  7. #142
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It's really bad. I read that stuff as it was coming out and walked away from Spidey until Jenkins. And that also led to me having to track the back issues because it took me awhile to get into the Jenkins stuff.
    I'd actually walked away about a year or so earlier because I didn't find the post-reboot material at all engaging. Additionally, my family had moved, and comics weren't as easily accessible, so...why bother?

    And now, over a decade later, I read these reprints and...they're still not at all engaging.


    Marvel's Civil War can be incredibly frustrating.

    (I think it would have actually been better if Bendis wrote it.)
    I don't think Civil War was a good idea from the start, but that's a completely different tangent. Of the three big hero vs. hero crossovers, I really think only World War Hulk had a solid concept behind it. AvX could have worked, in that I could see the two teams going at odds, but not for the reasons presented.

    Yeah, Bendis was one of the few guys who was actually trying to make all the characters involved seem reasonable, or at least sympathetic. He certainly couldn't have done any worse than JMS, who made Tony a monster and Peter a moron.

  8. #143
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E. Wilson View Post
    I'd actually walked away about a year or so earlier because I didn't find the post-reboot material at all engaging. Additionally, my family had moved, and comics weren't as easily accessible, so...why bother?

    And now, over a decade later, I read these reprints and...they're still not at all engaging.
    It was a good comic lesson. If you don't like the book, walk away and check back in later.

    I don't think Civil War was a good idea from the start, but that's a completely different tangent. Of the three big hero vs. hero crossovers, I really think only World War Hulk had a solid concept behind it. AvX could have worked, in that I could see the two teams going at odds, but not for the reasons presented.

    Yeah, Bendis was one of the few guys who was actually trying to make all the characters involved seem reasonable, or at least sympathetic. He certainly couldn't have done any worse than JMS, who made Tony a monster and Peter a moron.
    The real problem with Civil War was that nobody seemed like they were on the same page. In an Amazing tie-in issue, Iron Man is saying to Spidey that his Super Gitmo is a permanent solution. And then in Civil War proper, he tells Peter that it's only temporary.

    There were some actual interesting ideas that were overshadowed by Tony building his Super Gitmo and cloning Thor and all sorts of other crazy crap.

    I didn't think World War Hulk was as strong as Planet Hulk. But that's because they went for the "of course Tony and co. didn't blow up the ship." Seemed like a cop-out to me.

    AvX has some strong moments that work. And that's all I shall say on that front.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  9. #144
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The real problem with Civil War was that nobody seemed like they were on the same page. In an Amazing tie-in issue, Iron Man is saying to Spidey that his Super Gitmo is a permanent solution. And then in Civil War proper, he tells Peter that it's only temporary.
    Oh dear ghod, yes. On the one hand, I can be a little sympathetic, because they hadn't really done a crossover on this scale in years. But on the other hand, I'd expect them to take better care, because they hadn't done a crossover on this scale in years.

    There were some actual interesting ideas that were overshadowed by Tony building his Super Gitmo and cloning Thor and all sorts of other crazy crap.
    I'm still convinced that Marvel didn't think the anti-reg side was particularly convincing on its own, so they muddied the water by making Tony guilty of crimes that had absolutely nothing to do with the central debate at the heart of CW. And they succeeded a bit too well. To say the least.

    I didn't think World War Hulk was as strong as Planet Hulk. But that's because they went for the "of course Tony and co. didn't blow up the ship." Seemed like a cop-out to me.
    Oh, I really just glanced over both stories; I'm not a huge fan of the original Hulk. I'm saying, on a conceptual level, "Hulk versus Everybody" is a pretty easy sell, and doesn't require much gymnastics when it comes to characterization.

  10. #145
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    His Spectacular didn't work as well for me as his Peter Parker. Sure, there were a few issues that did but on the whole I wasn't wild about his Spec.
    So far I think this is true. Hunger took venom to a weird place. Not a bad place necessarily, but a weird one, and one that I'm not sure is consistent with the past. The Doc Ock story fell kinda flat for me too. And he shows his disdain for continuity again by just flat out changing the backstory from the two Unlimited issues.

    JMS was writing Fantastic Four at the same time. And his Amazing and FF tied together. (Until he left FF to get ready for Thor. When the late Dwayne McDuffie took over FF, it didn't tie into Amazing anymore.)

    Also, you should think about reading Dan Slott's Spider-Man/Human Torch around the time the Avengers start showing up in Amazing. (Not just because of the final issue's place in continuity but also because it's pretty good.)
    This is me grumbling about lacking time and crossovers in general. Especially FF. I have no interest in FF. Reading after Spider-Man joined them killed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by E. Wilson View Post
    You know, I'd heard about these issues, (they topped JR/Madgoblin's list of the worst Spidey stories ever for a long while), but I never had the chance to read them until the Next Chapter trades. And what I found was...they were too poorly written to make me angry. Intellectually, I knew that this should piss me off. But the writing is so forced, and the conflict so unengaging that I walked away more apathetic than irritated.

    (The one good thing I'll say about them is that the Faux-Goblin's identity crisis would have been interesting if he wasn't, well, the fifth Green Goblin and it wasn't a cop-out ending to a much more interesting plot line. If the third Peter Parker had grappled with this instead of becoming Spidercide, he might have sucked less.)
    I think this is about right. I just sorta didn't care by the end.


    Okay, here's how I understood the series of events: The first four issues of Pulse happen prior to MK Spidey #1. When the police show up to arrest the Goblin, he flies off, Spidey pursues, and most of their battle happens off-panal. (Augh!) MK Spidey #1 starts at the end of that battle, and Spidey finishes the Goblin off. At a later point, Osborn is being driven to the courthouse, Cage ambushes him, and Spidey intervenes.

    Granted, I haven't read them in a while; is there a plot point I overlooked?
    Excuse me, Marvel Pulse? THE **** is that?
    Last edited by Xenon; 12-21-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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  11. #146
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Hey real quick, did I miss something? when the **** did the Lizard/Curt Connors find out that PEter Parker was Spider-Man? I want to check to see if I missed something before I start mentally tearing this story apart.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  12. #147
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    Excuse me, Marvel Pulse? THE **** is that?
    It was a short-lived series by Bendis and Bagley that followed Jessica Jones as she worked on the Daily Bugle. ("Pulse" being the name of the super-hero current event series she was writing.) As far as Spidey's concerned, the first storyline revolved around Jones' investigation into Oscorp, which ultimately leads to Norman Osbron completely flipping his $h!+ and outing himself as the Goblin. Spidey plays an important part, but he's not the main character. There's some great Osborn and Jonah moments, but it's not entirely required reading. (I really enjoyed it, but I'm a sucker for Bagley art.)

    EDIT: What should arrive in the mail today but Amazing Spidey Omnibus volume 2, and the "Return of the Burglar" and "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" hardcovers! It'll probably take me a while to work through all this material, (And I've got a couple non-comic books I want to get to as well), but I'll make notations as I go.
    Last edited by E. Wilson; 12-21-2012 at 05:45 PM.

  13. #148
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    So far I think this is true. Hunger took venom to a weird place. Not a bad place necessarily, but a weird one, and one that I'm not sure is consistent with the past. The Doc Ock story fell kinda flat for me too. And he shows his disdain for continuity again by just flat out changing the backstory from the two Unlimited issues.
    The Venom story is gonna look REALLY weird given Millar's MK Spidey.

    This is me grumbling about lacking time and crossovers in general. Especially FF. I have no interest in FF. Reading after Spider-Man joined them killed that.
    JMS wasn't on for very long and his brief run wasn't as good as it could have been. He seemed to spend more time building up to stories in other books (like Planet Hulk). McDuffie's brief run, I enjoyed. But Hickman's recent run was one of my favorite Marvel books in the last few years (topped only by Gillen's Journey Into Mystery).

    I think this is about right. I just sorta didn't care by the end.
    It's just really bad. But given the upswing with Jenkins coming on to PP almost immediately afterwards, it does cool some of that fanboy ire.

    (It still sucks, though.)

    Excuse me, Marvel Pulse? THE **** is that?
    Spin-off/Sequel to Brian Bendis's Alias comic. It stars Jessica Jones, who was retconned in as a fellow classmate at Peter's high school (Peter makes a brief cameo in Alias during a flashback). The first story was a major Goblin story and it can be a bit confusing with how it ties into Millar's MK Spidey. (You don't have to read it to get what happens in MK Spidey.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    Hey real quick, did I miss something? when the **** did the Lizard/Curt Connors find out that PEter Parker was Spider-Man? I want to check to see if I missed something before I start mentally tearing this story apart.
    He didn't. This was Jenkins once again playing fast and loose with continuity.

    This was probably the most glaring example during Spec.
    Last edited by Kevinroc; 12-21-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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  14. #149
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    He didn't. This was Jenkins once again playing fast and loose with continuity.

    This was probably the most glaring example during Spec.
    Actually, this might have have happened during the "Quality of Life" mini by Rucka. (The all-CGI comic.) I haven't read it since it came out, but I remember attention being drawn to some ambiguous dialogue between Curt and Peter that seemed to indicate Curt knew who Pete was. It was never followed up on, and the next time Lizard appears is in "A Lizard's Tale". So, Jenkins could have been playing fast and loose with continuity, or he could have been following up on Rucka playing fast and loose with continuity, or they both could have been playing fast and loose with continuity independently of each other.

    Regardless, "A Lizard's Tale" is never referenced again one way or another, and is now totally inconsequential.

    (I remember when "A Lizard's Tale" was the most controversial Lizard story. Ha!)

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by E. Wilson View Post
    Actually, this might have have happened during the "Quality of Life" mini by Rucka. (The all-CGI comic.) I haven't read it since it came out, but I remember attention being drawn to some ambiguous dialogue between Curt and Peter that seemed to indicate Curt knew who Pete was. It was never followed up on, and the next time Lizard appears is in "A Lizard's Tale". So, Jenkins could have been playing fast and loose with continuity, or he could have been following up on Rucka playing fast and loose with continuity, or they both could have been playing fast and loose with continuity independently of each other.

    Regardless, "A Lizard's Tale" is never referenced again one way or another, and is now totally inconsequential.

    (I remember when "A Lizard's Tale" was the most controversial Lizard story. Ha!)
    I didn't even like "A Lizard's Tale." I was never wild about Jenkins Spec. run with the exception of #14 and #27, only because those were most like my favorite issues of his PP run.

    (Although the poker game issue with Kingpin was a fine little done-in-one.)

    Jenkins just isn't a continuity guy.

    (Although the most controversial Marvel retcons he did were outside of Spidey. One was the Hulk retcon. Retconning the "Merged" personality that Peter David created into a fake personality made up by Doc Samson.

    And the other was the Sentry.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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