Ressurection of What Spider-Man Comic Have You Read Lately? -- Possible Spoilers

[Lazyking]

I just read one more day... As a new comic fan but Spidy fan a long time thru other media.. I wanted to check out this much hated storyline for myself. I thought the deal with Mephisto was stupid simply because saving Aunt May isn't big enough for me to end Peter and MJ. Also, their is very little action so its a very depressing storyline on top of everything else. Finally, it shows the creative was lazy at the time because they basically rebooted Spider-Man instead of moving him forward..

Anyway, what should I read next?

[Xenon]

If you haven't read many comics, I would recommends you actually read the beginning issues of Spider-Man. Like, Amazing Spider-Man 1-122, or however far you get. It's the best stuff around.

Well internet snags and the existence of random extra titles hindered my progress (alpha and omega indeed), but I've had a productive two days, all things considered.

Since last time I've read....

Amazing 403-407
Spectacular 225-231
Web 125-129 (END)
Spider-Man 59-64

Oh also the entire Untold Tales of Spider-Man Omnibus which is...

Amazing Fantasy #16-18
Untold Tales of Spider-Man 1-25
Untold Tales of Spider-Man '96 Annual
Untold Tales of Spider-Man '97 Annual
Untold Tales of Spider-Man Strange encounter.

That's....56 books. Not too bad for three days. But that's the benefit of being unemployed and having a broken internet and no gas so I can't even apply for jobs. Clone Saga stuff first.

1) Now that I'm done with the first act of the clone saga (Ben Reilly is now Spider-Man), I feel that the whole thing is a good cautionary tale against plot/result oriented writing. Not that writing for a specific goal is inherently bad, but just that if you do so you run the risk of messing up the characters and as a result writing a bad story. It's also a cautionary tale against retcons, since it demonstrates the problem of needing to explain things and having no good way to explain the plot holes you need filled (resulting in hokey lines of dialogue from Jackal where he randomly explains why Ben has cloning memories).
2) Being a clone would suck, for a lot of reasons, but the way they have Peter react is just ridiculous. In fact, a lot of why being a clone sucks doesn't apply to Mr. Parker, because at the time of his cloning, he had no family to lose except Aunt May, and at the time he finds out he is a clone (except he's not, of course), she's dead. Ben Reilly has no life to steal. Mary Jane is in love with/pregnant with Peter's kid. The two of them barely had any kind of relationship at the time of the cloning. And teaming up with the jackal because he has "nothing"? It's just nonsensical. He has stuff, and it goes against everything we've ever seen about Spider-Man's self-sacrificial nature.
3) While I'm on the subject of aggravating reactions, this whole "I have a kid so I can't be Spider-Man" thing annoys me. So....Aunt May is chopped liver? Mary Jane/Betty/Gwen didn't mean anything? He's ALWAYS had responsibilities to people where his death would cause problems, a kid is no different. Yeah, it would suck to grow up without a dad, but it would suck to watch your nephew or husband/boyfriend die too. It doesn't change the idea of great power coming with great responsibility. It doesn't change the compulsion. Just because he has a kid, it doesn't mean that he can not stop the muggers he sees. Life is full of risk. The attitude he takes with the kid is a quitter's attitude.
4) The entire Gwen clone situation, again, completely frustrating. So she hooks up with her stalker? Creepy much? And why the hell does she forget everything? I mean, ok, so Dreamweaver made her think things are a certain way, that's fine, but why does she break down when she discovers that it's a lie and she was a clone..like she already confronted years ago. Why does she act all evil and weird in Peter/MJ's kitchen? Especially after just saying they were best friends? And since when were they best friends? And then there's the fact that her existence is just a major plot hole to the whole "Ben Reilly goes off to be alone cause he's the only clone" thing. Why the hell doesn't he track her down as soon as he leaves? Even if you ignore their mutual history and what not, at the very least, in Ben Reilly's mind, she's the only other clone in existence. Wouldn't he want to find her and seek out a life for her if for no other reason than because they are the only clones (AFAHK)?
5) And then there's the Jackal. Why the **** is he doing this again? Where'd the mega-maniacal streak come from again? Until suddenly he cares about Gwen again? Why would he send out a clone instead of himself to hook up with Gwen like he always wanted? Have I made my point yet that this all is incredibly stupid?
6) I still maintain that the root of most of the clone saga's problems stems from the decision to make Ben Reilly the original. It just completely confuses the issue, at best. You're dealing with a story that took place in the mid 70s. Especially in an industry that makes it as difficult as possible to procure old material, that means a lot of your readers aren't even have going to read any of the era where the "original" was present. And even if they had, what, that means the following 200-250 issues mean ****? How am I supposed to react to that? And why does being the original matter so much? That means this clone guy is the one I've been watching, but I'm supposed to immediately root for this other guy because he's the "original". And if he'sthe original, why is HE the one taking the new stuff.

Let me put it this way. Considering the fact that they gave him a new job, new supporting cast, new love interests, and so on, the only purpose making him the original is to kick sand in the face of the other guy. He doesn't NEED to be the original to be Spider-Man. He's still Peter Parker...basically. And Peter has an (admittedly lame) excuse to quit. You're not going to snuff out the legitimacy of the other guy, cause the other guy has twenty years of stories which people like. Make him a clone, give Peter a reason to retire, make EVERYTHING new instead of a one old thing stuck with all the new.

7) Semi-Related Minor spoilers for Tales of the Abyss: spoilers:

If you want to see a clone story done right, that hits a lot of the same notes but in a much better manner, play the PS2/3Ds RPG Tales of the Abyss.

end of spoilers
8) Doc Ock.....I feel like they should have made a bigger deal out of him unmasking Peter than they did. The fact that they new they were going to kill him means that they should have been even MORE melodramatic about it.
9) "New" villains. I....like them mostly kinda? That is to say, a lot of the crop of Reilly villains I've seen so far I think I like what they're going for Mysterio has a cool new look. Vulture has a new interesting schtick (that fits his name, the only good thing out of Life-theft). Grim Hunter seemed like a cool visual update to Kraven. Lady Octopus was an interesting way to insert diversity. Sadly they seem to have fumbled a lot of it. They killed Grim hunter quickly (not really sure why, either...), and Lady Octopus both comes off as a whiny little brat and someone with comical motivations. Her VR obsession I think makes her more of a 90s character than Spawn.
10) I like Ben's setup and I like the new costume. Not really as much as the original, but I like it as the sort of next generation look. Giving him a more normal job is a little more troublesome, since a more normal job means more normal hours, but I like the idea, nonetheless. He'll just have to learn to stay on the job or work something out.
11) I think, despite how craptastic the Clone Saga played out, I could have lived with this as the new status quo. Too bad it doesn't matter.
12) This is really random, but it's interesting how we just sorta seemed to have forgotten that Peter Parker was in grad school. No final "i quit", no resolution, just, it slowly slipped out of relevance. Despite having read this whole period in less than a year, I'm still not sure when it happened.

[Xenon]

And now on to Untold tales. Which I read in less than 24 hours. All 800+ pages of it.

1) Amazing Fantasy 16-18 are some of the best Spider-Man comics ever. The mastery of the original Stan Lee/Steve Ditko run was that they addressed things quickly but sufficiently, making you feel like the story was meaty and complete. Still, they leave a lot of space where you can put other things. While the first several issues of Spider-Man ramped things up (starting with the relatively lame Chameleon and Vulture before moving up to Doc Ock and other powerful threats), AF16-18 ramps even slower, having Spider-Man deal with common thugs, but doing so in a way that makes sense. AF16-18 aren't NECESSARY, but they MAKE SENSE. In other words, you can cut them, but how masterfully they're told, you don't want to.
2) Untold Tales starts off almost as well. Addressing and reinforcing some ideas and concepts of why Spider-Man is the way he is. It has the benefit of milking one of the periods of Peter's life that hadn't been milked. Again, the original run is masterful, but it IS quick. It moves about in essentially real time (not issue to issue, but 1965 was two years later). Plopping in 25 new issues just doubles the issues he's in High School for. It's almost like how the run would go if it was written with hindsight and twenty-five years later. It adds depth to the Peter and Betty relationship (while simultaneously making Betty that much less appealing). The feeling of the series is enhanced by the Ditko style that the artist achieves. It really feels like it belongs in with those issues, even if it doesn't deal with real milestones and has to fit in between issues.
3) With that said. Untold is at its best when it covers new material or adds new depth to existing characters and relationships. It's at its worst when it tries to fit too much in or retread the same issue they dealt with before. The Sally Avril Storyline was well-done, but the ending just doesn't fit in between the rest of the issues. A kid at my High School died in my Junior year. He was a year older than me, but I was both in band and boy scouts with both him and his brother (and had been for years). I may have gotten it more than most, but that's not the kind of storyline you can just shove in between issues. It's something that would have bled over, and it breaks the illusion. Perhaps if they did it in a way where Peter was so out of it with his troubles that he didn't notice, but not in the way they did, where he blames himself. Again, I have absolutely no issue with how the story played out. It was well executed. It's just that, in the context of fitting these issues in between others, it breaks the premise.

Other times, the stories seem to retread the exact lessons that Spider-Man has already dealt with in other issues. I forget most of the details now (hey, I've read another twenty-five issues since then), but I do remember being annoyed at stuff that seemed like exact re-treads. The other major stumbling point for the series, I think, was shoving so many issues into his "Spider-Man, coward!?" period. On the one hand, it does do a good job of emphasizing the length of that period and making that a big deal. On the other hand, it's just not an entertaining period. It's an annoying period, and dragging it out just makes it more annoying.
4) Still, with those qualms in hand, I heartily recommend the entire series. Not only are these interesting stories, they're tales that make Spider-Man's world seem richer and deeper. It intertwines things from the future into the past with the knowledge of their significant. Seeing Eddie Brock be a reporter was one of my favorite moments of the series. Or seeing the slow machinations of the Green Goblin as he ramps up his slide into villainy. The first few issues and AF16-18 are magnificent. The rest is really good.

[Aziz Abbasi]

Peter Parker Spider-Man 156.1
Decent story, nothing more
It's a nice touch to draw Cliff Robertson as Ben Parker, he played the role better than Martin Sheen did, and he passed away this year

Spectacular Spider-Man 157
I love it, it's funny, and it's a blast to see Robbie punching Tombstone in the face and hit him with a fork

[Xenon]

Another busy couple of days, gonna actually get some more issues in tonight, but I've reached a good stopping point. See if you can identify it based only on the issue numbers!

Amazing 408-418
Spectacular 232-240
Spider-Man 65-75
Sensational Spider-Man 00-11

Amazing Scarlet Spider 1-2
Spectacular Scarlet Spider 1-2
Scarlet Spider 1-2
Web of Scarlet Spider 1-4
Scarlet Spider Unlimited 1

That's 54 books.

Had to skip the Scarlet Spider issues at first, so things got a little bit out of order.

1) I like the Ben Reilly Spider-Man era. Pretty much all of it. I think it's stupid the way they set it up. I have conflicting emotions about the idea that Ben was the real Peter Parker (because it, as I said before, serves no purpose other than to legitimize what happened since the mid-70s), but if I push all that out of my mind, then yeah, I kinda love this year of Spider-Man. I love the new costume (though I did love seeing the return of the old one). I think all the writers are doing a pretty excellent job. I think the stories return to the type of stories Spider-Man was telling in his first thirty years. I like the visual upgrades to Mysterio, I think Armada is a cool villain. I like the way Ben's love life plays out and his potential suitors (more on that later). It's just a good solid year of titles. Like forty books of excellent Spider-Man. Media Blizzard was a great Mysterio story (if a little redundant). And even though I think it came a little too soon, I even like the way Peter slowly gets integrated back into Peter's life. This little interlude between Maximum Clonage and Revelations is great Spider-Man. Period..
2) Also, I want to take a moment here and comment how just GREAT the art is on the title right now. Weirngo (however you spell that guy's name), Buscema, JRJR, Bagley, Ross, they're all hiting it out of the park. I've always been a big fan of the uniform style (always is less than two years, but meh), but this art period makes me value the contributions of the variations. And I'll also say, even thoguh these artists do have distinctly different styles, they seem to be drawing at least SOMEWHAT similarly. There isn't that dramatic art difference that you sometimes got in the very early nineties or recently that I find distracting. They're different enough to be noticeable, similar enough to be non-distracting. It's a damn shame it came together perfectly when the story was such crap. Perhaps my only complaint is that Norman is a bit thick.

3) One of my biggest objections to OMD (stay with me here) is that I feel that Peter Parker's love life has been wrung out pretty completely for lots of reasons. But Jessica Carradine and Desiree make me pause for a second. Jessica, though her story played out pretty quickly, provided some weight to the old "I love Peter Parker but HATE Spider-Man" shtick. Honestly, she's the only one that REALLY commits to it. Gwen was mad after George died but was cooling, Betty was mad after Bennett died but just hated the idea of Peter BEING Spider-Man, primarily. Jessica, however, holds Spidey in the same regard as Jonah does. It's good take on the idea, and she's enhanced by making her Peter Parker's replacement, another interesting idea. They played her quite quickly though, but I imagine that was because they had to wrap everything up so they could kill Ben. =p Desiree is a take on Mary Jane, but enough of a twist to find her interesting.

4) Speaking of Mary Jane, man they have just stamped out her character in the last three years, haven't they? Even after the marriage, her personality remained mostly intact. She was more responsible, more loyal than before, certainly, but that's a natural result of her growing up and coming to peace with her demons. Ever since Lifetheft and this damn clone saga business, however, she has less fire in her than Gwen ever did. She's approaching Betty levels of passivity (Girlfriend era-Betty, that is). They try to make her "fight back" occasionally, but it just makes her seem dumb and weak. She's the most silver age girlfriend ever in the series at this point, and I can see why, written this way, people would see her as a dead weight. Of course, that's just because she's been written improperly, but whatever. She's a hard character to write properly. But still, work at it people.

5) And now we come to the end of the clone saga. I'll start with a minor complaint, why the **** would MENDEL STROMM EVER WORK FOR NORMAN OSBORN? Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just a stickler for things, but COME ON. OF ALL THE enemies in the history of Spider-Man, Mendel Stromm is literally the worst pick imaginable. He was introduced plotting to take down Norman Osborn. Norman is his sworn enemy, and he just works for the guy? NEVER. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS. Minor characters are characters too.

6) With that said, Revelations is far from the worst of the Clone Saga. I object to Norman's return vehemently (more in a minute), but the story actually plays out like a great tragedy....mostly. I mean, this is average at best, dont' get me wrong, but there's more of a cohesive story here. A rushed one, to be sure, but it's THERE. There are less plot holes, more sense, and it wraps things up in a nice neat package (arguably too neat). Ben's death is done spectacularly, as he's not killed by any one villain, he's killed by a series of events. First he has a difficult battle with Stromm, then he gets blindsided after his Spider-Sense is disabled. THEN he gets blown up by a pumpkin bomb, THEN he gets impales while saving Peter, and THEN he falls off a building. If you MUST kill Spider-Man (and clone or not, he IS Spider-Man), this is the way to do it.

7) Why the **** is Arthur Stacy here though? We're trying to wrap **** up kids. Not introduce random hanging threads out of nowhere that go nowhere.

8) No Peter, it's never been about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. It's always been about Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. It was Spider-Man that Norman first attacked, as the Green Goblin. It was the Green Goblin that Spider-Man repeatedly thwarted, not Norman Osborn. Norman eventually MADE it personal, but it was ALWAYS about the masks, never the men beneath them.

9) Who is this Norman Osborn, anyway? I've said this elsewhere, but really, the man who takes the place of Norman Osborn, who claims to BE Norman Osborn, has virtually no similarities with the man he was in 1973. The Green Goblin was a schemer,sure, but he was not a master planner, he was not a grand orchestrator, a chessmaster, or a puppeteer. He was a hands-on type of guy (it's the only way his character makes sense, anyway), and if Untold Tales is canon, then we even SEE him become that Hands On type of guy. And he had nothing but contempt for Harry. Maybe, ok, maybe I can buy the idea that he would let Harry take over as the Green Goblin and try his schtick in Europe. Fine. But not all the scheming and manipulations and back planning. That was never Norman Osborn's style. Ironically, that was HARRY's style, now that I think about it, which makes Bob Harass' veto of Harry as the mastermind all the more puzzling. Harry was FAR FAR FAR more likely to have pulled off some crazy scheme like this than his original father EVER was.

[Xenon]

Just to add some record to my failure.

My pace is the result of what I have turned into nearly an impossible goal, to read ALL* of Spider-Man's comics prior to the release of 700. I was contemplating this for a while, most of the year, really, but the news that Amazing would end with 700 made me even more determined to pursue the goal. Of course, life is busy and motivation was stuck for a while, so I've waited to the last minute (typical).

All has an asterisk because i'm sure to miss something or another, like the second and third Marvel team-up titles. But these series have seemed far less pertinent than the first one (which basically was a second Spider-Man title before such a thing existed) and are difficult to procure. As is Spider-Man Unlimited, but I'm working on that one because it's a short series and DOES play a role in the completion of storylines. As such, ALL will really be more like 90-95% of the total spider-Man comics. Note that that is Spider-Man comics, not comics where Spider-Man appears. There's a difference.

I did the halfway point where I counted the comics I'd read, but now instead I'm going to do the reverse, because I feel like I'm about 2/3rds of the way through the whole series. More than that, really.

Currently, by my count, I have 447 Spider-Man comics to catch up to where I started reading the modern run, 648. Let's see how close I get.

[Kevinroc]

Just to add some record to my failure.

My pace is the result of what I have turned into nearly an impossible goal, to read ALL* of Spider-Man's comics prior to the release of 700. I was contemplating this for a while, most of the year, really, but the news that Amazing would end with 700 made me even more determined to pursue the goal. Of course, life is busy and motivation was stuck for a while, so I've waited to the last minute (typical).

All has an asterisk because i'm sure to miss something or another, like the second and third Marvel team-up titles. But these series have seemed far less pertinent than the first one (which basically was a second Spider-Man title before such a thing existed) and are difficult to procure. As is Spider-Man Unlimited, but I'm working on that one because it's a short series and DOES play a role in the completion of storylines. As such, ALL will really be more like 90-95% of the total spider-Man comics. Note that that is Spider-Man comics, not comics where Spider-Man appears. There's a difference.

I did the halfway point where I counted the comics I'd read, but now instead I'm going to do the reverse, because I feel like I'm about 2/3rds of the way through the whole series. More than that, really.

Currently, by my count, I have 447 Spider-Man comics to catch up to where I started reading the modern run, 648. Let's see how close I get.

And you're entering the Post-Clone Saga era. Such an... interesting era.

And then the reboot. (Oh god, that era SUCKED!)

(And you thought you hated how MJ was written in the Clone Saga? Wait until you hit that reboot era.)

Actually... Are you reading Chapter One?

(And this might drive you nuts but an important Mysterio event takes place in Kevin Smith and Joe Quesada's Daredevil story.)

Oh, and are you familiar with X-Man?

[E. Wilson]

I'll start with a minor complaint, why the **** would MENDEL STROMM EVER WORK FOR NORMAN OSBORN?

Because Marvel wrote themselves into quite a few corners, and Stromm was the nearest dead body they could shove into the Gaunt suit and make it work. It never particularly phased me, if only because they showed that he had nothing but contempt for his boss.

Fun fact: I'd only been reading Spidey for a year when Revelations came around, so (like most people, I'd imagine) I had no idea who the Robot Master was. But I assumed he'd had a history and repeated appearances, and I just hadn't come across them. (Similar to Carrion, Swarm, etc.) I mean, this was a BIG REVEAL, and it wouldn't be wasted on a guy who'd only shown up twice in thirty-five years, right? ...right?

Ahh, to be young and stupid.

8) No Peter, it's never been about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. It's always been about Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. It was Spider-Man that Norman first attacked, as the Green Goblin. It was the Green Goblin that Spider-Man repeatedly thwarted, not Norman Osborn. Norman eventually MADE it personal, but it was ALWAYS about the masks, never the men beneath them.

I've always found this argument silly. Look, when a guy spends five years wrecking your life and killing your kid, you can make claim it's personal. And if you accept the Legacy of Evil explanation of Osborn's MO (Which all right-thinking Americans should), one of the main reasons the Goblin became more overtly insane isn't just because he found out who Spider-Man was; it's because Spider-Man was in his midst for a long time. For a paranoid guy like Osborn, finding out the his arch enemy was his son's classmate, and had wormed his way into Osborn's social circle, would have been unbearable. It got personal the instant the Goblin followed Parker home, which was only halfway into the character's original career.

9) Who is this Norman Osborn, anyway? I've said this elsewhere, but really, the man who takes the place of Norman Osborn, who claims to BE Norman Osborn, has virtually no similarities with the man he was in 1973. The Green Goblin was a schemer,sure, but he was not a master planner, he was not a grand orchestrator, a chessmaster, or a puppeteer. He was a hands-on type of guy (it's the only way his character makes sense, anyway), and if Untold Tales is canon, then we even SEE him become that Hands On type of guy. And he had nothing but contempt for Harry. Maybe, ok, maybe I can buy the idea that he would let Harry take over as the Green Goblin and try his schtick in Europe. Fine. But not all the scheming and manipulations and back planning. That was never Norman Osborn's style. Ironically, that was HARRY's style, now that I think about it, which makes Bob Harass' veto of Harry as the mastermind all the more puzzling. Harry was FAR FAR FAR more likely to have pulled off some crazy scheme like this than his original father EVER was.

You're not entirely wrong, (although I'd argue that Untold Tales makes Norm even more of a schemer), but I'm willing to accept this leap in characterization for the simple fact that Post-Resurrection Norms is a total bad-ass, and exactly what the books needed at the time.

[Xenon]

And you're entering the Post-Clone Saga era. Such an... interesting era.

And then the reboot. (Oh god, that era SUCKED!)

(And you thought you hated how MJ was written in the Clone Saga? Wait until you hit that reboot era.)

Actually... Are you reading Chapter One?

(And this might drive you nuts but an important Mysterio event takes place in Kevin Smith and Joe Quesada's Daredevil story.)

Oh, and are you familiar with X-Man?

I don't have Chapter One. It is my understanding that it becomes canon for like five minutes and then is swept under the rug. This makes it low on the priority list. I'm aware that Mysterio is "killed" in Daredevil, and perhaps someday I'll get around to it, but not for now. The propensity of Marvel to export Spider-Man villains to other heroes (Rhino went to Hulk, Mysterio to Daredevil, Electro to....someone...) is annoying to me.

I know that there is a hero named X-Man, but my memory fails me on exactly who he is at this moment.

Because Marvel wrote themselves into quite a few corners, and Stromm was the nearest dead body they could shove into the Gaunt suit and make it work. It never particularly phased me, if only because they showed that he had nothing but contempt for his boss.

Fun fact: I'd only been reading Spidey for a year when Revelations came around, so (like most people, I'd imagine) I had no idea who the Robot Master was. But I assumed he'd had a history and repeated appearances, and I just hadn't come across them. (Similar to Carrion, Swarm, etc.) I mean, this was a BIG REVEAL, and it wouldn't be wasted on a guy who'd only shown up twice in thirty-five years, right? ...right?

Ahh, to be young and stupid.

This is just a bad excuse though, not something that made it better. They're basically jsut admitting they did it because they ****ed up, but their solution for ****ing up is to **** up again. I mean, no one cares about Mendel Stromm, but it just irritates me that of all the people they could have chose, they made the worst possible decision. And, IIRC from Life of Reilly, it really was a last minute decision. Gaunt was Harry when he was first introduced. Bah.

I've always found this argument silly. Look, when a guy spends five years wrecking your life and killing your kid, you can make claim it's personal. And if you accept the Legacy of Evil explanation of Osborn's MO (Which all right-thinking Americans should), one of the main reasons the Goblin became more overtly insane isn't just because he found out who Spider-Man was; it's because Spider-Man was in his midst for a long time. For a paranoid guy like Osborn, finding out the his arch enemy was his son's classmate, and had wormed his way into Osborn's social circle, would have been unbearable. It got personal the instant the Goblin followed Parker home, which was only halfway into the character's original career.

It GOT personal, no one is arguing that, but everything stems from their careers as masks. Peter Parker and Norman Osborn had next to no interaction. Everything stems from the Green Goblin trying to whack Spider-Man to get credibility. The root of their conflict, what it's all about, is Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. My memory fails me, but there are examples of heroes and villains whose root conflict stems from more personal motivations, definitely, but these two have always had a professional disagreement, which Norman then took more and more personally. But it's not about their civilian lives. At least, before Norman Osborn became Lex Luthor.

You're not entirely wrong, (although I'd argue that Untold Tales makes Norm even more of a schemer), but I'm willing to accept this leap in characterization for the simple fact that Post-Resurrection Norms is a total bad-ass, and exactly what the books needed at the time.

Maybe he was, but since New Norman has no connection to old Norman, it just makes the fact that he's "ressurrected" all the more puzzling. Especially since with all the clone nonsense, they had a perfect out. Would a fitting end to the clone saga not be that the most successful clone of all was responsible for the mess?

It's just that since New Norman has no connection to his past, I see no reason why such a character couldn't have been completely new. Sure, they would have had to come up with a new villain to end the Clone Saga with, whether Harry (which worked better anyway) or Mendel or I don't know. But my point is just that we could have had everything. A still dead and consistent Norman, AND a planning businessman villain who torments Peter because he knows his secret identity. They just had to not fumble the two years they had.

[E. Wilson]

This is just a bad excuse though, not something that made it better. They're basically jsut admitting they did it because they ****ed up, but their solution for ****ing up is to **** up again. I mean, no one cares about Mendel Stromm, but it just irritates me that of all the people they could have chose, they made the worst possible decision. And, IIRC from Life of Reilly, it really was a last minute decision. Gaunt was Harry when he was first introduced. Bah.

...how totally awesome would it have been if "Gaunt" was the Crime Master? Now there's some dumbass reaching!

It GOT personal, no one is arguing that, but everything stems from their careers as masks. Peter Parker and Norman Osborn had next to no interaction. Everything stems from the Green Goblin trying to whack Spider-Man to get credibility. The root of their conflict, what it's all about, is Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. My memory fails me, but there are examples of heroes and villains whose root conflict stems from more personal motivations, definitely, but these two have always had a professional disagreement, which Norman then took more and more personally. But it's not about their civilian lives. At least, before Norman Osborn became Lex Luthor.

Consider the context, though. It's Peter who's saying it, after Ozzy just put him through Hell.

Maybe he was, but since New Norman has no connection to old Norman, it just makes the fact that he's "ressurrected" all the more puzzling. Especially since with all the clone nonsense, they had a perfect out. Would a fitting end to the clone saga not be that the most successful clone of all was responsible for the mess?

And miss the awesome shirtless scene? No, my friend. That belongs to the ages.

It's just that since New Norman has no connection to his past, I see no reason why such a character couldn't have been completely new. Sure, they would have had to come up with a new villain to end the Clone Saga with, whether Harry (which worked better anyway) or Mendel or I don't know. But my point is just that we could have had everything. A still dead and consistent Norman, AND a planning businessman villain who torments Peter because he knows his secret identity. They just had to not fumble the two years they had.

From a writing standpoint, the mastermind simply couldn't have been someone unknown. (Although I suppose Doctor Octopus or Spencer Smythe could have worked, as well.) But I think there's some difficulties in extrapolating behavior of character based in the Silver and Bronze Age. A lot of comics at the time didn't provide extensive characterization for villains or secondary characters, and if they didn't stick around for later writers to explore, then we just don't find out that much about them. Additionally, Osborn was frequently missing for long stints, and we didn't even know who he was until halfway through his career.

Basically, one of the reasons I think the revived Osborn works is because there really wasn't that much to the original character. Trying to extrapolate from his scant development in the Silver age isn't going to yield all that much. A lot of fans dislike how Norm was the Kingpin's spineless lackey in the 90's cartoon, but it kind of proves the point: he hadn't been resurrected yet, so the writers looked at what was in the Silver age and came to a completely different interpretation of the character. They didn't have that much to work with.

[Ballard Blues]

Well, I managed to get a hold of a "Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man" one shot and I've gotta say it was pretty fun, all things considered. The level of abuse Miguel just casually inflicts on Jonah and gets away with it is hilarious, mainly because people at the Bugle were still willing to help him get the information he needed. I liked the brief interaction the Spider-Men had with their respective significant other and sibling; Miguel figuring things out with Mary Jane (who I mistook for Jean Grey more than once), Gabriel freaking out when he realized he wasn't talking to Miguel and aiding Peter in getting back on track despite Lyla's insistence to stuff them with food. I wish it was a little longer page wise; the end feels like one of those times you end up sandwiched between a crowd of people trying to get through a revolving door.

Does this take place during the Clone Saga by any chance? There was a comment about Peter "not knowing himself anymore" that made my eyebrow raise.

[DracoDracul]

Amazing Fantasy #15 - Amazing Spider-Man #10 (Marvel Masterworks reprint)

I was honestly amazed how many recognizable villains show up in these first 11 issues (Chameleon, Vulture, Doctor Octopus, Sandman, The Lizard, and Electro). Amazing Fantasy 15 is a damn fine origin story, there's a reason that virtually every retelling hits all the main beats. Amazing Spider-Man #1 and #2 really suffer from the two shorts format that gives both a rushed pace (the somewhat out place espionage stuff in 1 and the random aliens in 2 don't help any). Amazing Spider-Man #3 is better, but it definitely feels like a transition between the two shorts and one shot format as the two halves of it feel disjointed. Amazing Spider-Man #4 is the first genuinely great issue of Amazing Spider-Man (and I say that despite being rather ambivalent towards Sandman).

Of the remaining 6 issues, my favorite is #7 "The Return of the Vulture" which more than makes up for the deus ex machina ending to the fight with the Vulture in issue 2.

[Xenon]

...how totally awesome would it have been if "Gaunt" was the Crime Master? Now there's some dumbass reaching!

Almost as awesome as if the new Crimemaster was Bennett Brant. Wait....

Nonetheless, it still would have been better, considering the history.

Consider the context, though. It's Peter who's saying it, after Ozzy just put him through Hell.

So? Peter's stressed, he's not a moron. That's not the kind of thing you just say, it's a correction. You don't correct something that isn't wrong. I mean, I get that the Green Goblin had just put him through hell, but it's not the sort of thing that just flows from that situation, in my opinion.

And miss the awesome shirtless scene? No, my friend. That belongs to the ages.

He gave himself a fake scar to make himself remember what Peter did to the first one. Cause he's nuts like that.

From a writing standpoint, the mastermind simply couldn't have been someone unknown. (Although I suppose Doctor Octopus or Spencer Smythe could have worked, as well.) But I think there's some difficulties in extrapolating behavior of character based in the Silver and Bronze Age. A lot of comics at the time didn't provide extensive characterization for villains or secondary characters, and if they didn't stick around for later writers to explore, then we just don't find out that much about them. Additionally, Osborn was frequently missing for long stints, and we didn't even know who he was until halfway through his career.

It couldn't have been someone unknown, but it could have been someone we never saw again. Harry was ready for plug and play until they specifically took him out of the running. He was the original plan, and nothing disqualifies him, Gaunt was harry and Guant was the master mind, though "original" in this context just means "before the one they went with". If you were thinking about it, you also could have done someone different and set him up beforehand. Obviously that'd take mroe work and more salvaging, but it's not like the Clone saga was good to begin with.

Basically, one of the reasons I think the revived Osborn works is because there really wasn't that much to the original character. Trying to extrapolate from his scant development in the Silver age isn't going to yield all that much. A lot of fans dislike how Norm was the Kingpin's spineless lackey in the 90's cartoon, but it kind of proves the point: he hadn't been resurrected yet, so the writers looked at what was in the Silver age and came to a completely different interpretation of the character. They didn't have that much to work with.

I think that people ignore things that aren't all on the surface. I mean, there's a limit to reading between the lines, but there's a lot of depth to those original stories too. And Norman, honestly, was one of the most explored characters in the original run. He gets more development than Gwen or Mary Jane, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that people might not remember such things, but that doesn't make them less wrong. And I expect the caretakers of a franchise to pay more attention than that, at least when they're dealing with such a big name, especially when that big name had a very limited number of appearances to boot.

[Xenon]

Well, I managed to get a hold of a "Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man" one shot and I've gotta say it was pretty fun, all things considered. The level of abuse Miguel just casually inflicts on Jonah and gets away with it is hilarious, mainly because people at the Bugle were still willing to help him get the information he needed. I liked the brief interaction the Spider-Men had with their respective significant other and sibling; Miguel figuring things out with Mary Jane (who I mistook for Jean Grey more than once), Gabriel freaking out when he realized he wasn't talking to Miguel and aiding Peter in getting back on track despite Lyla's insistence to stuff them with food. I wish it was a little longer page wise; the end feels like one of those times you end up sandwiched between a crowd of people trying to get through a revolving door.

Does this take place during the Clone Saga by any chance? There was a comment about Peter "not knowing himself anymore" that made my eyebrow raise.

It was published in 1995, so yes, we would have been right in the thick of the thing.

[Kevinroc]

Sounds like somebody should be reading the alternate continuity "The Real Clone Saga" storyline. (Or may have already read it given the answers he is giving.)