The DC Numbers/Estimates Mega Thread

[golgi]

Books in the 90s sold in the millions because of the speculator boom, which was one of the main causes of the bust. Those aren't practices we want the industry to go back to.

Sales in the direct market aren't going to return to the days of when the average book would easily sell half a million. Prices have increased for one, and potential readers have many other forms of entertainment that they can consume. There are also more channels than before, between digital and the proliferation of trades and hardcovers in bookstores.

But even with all that, and the after effects of a global recession, we've seen the market served by Diamond US grow for the second year in a row. And 2012 saw everyone's sales increase, not just the Big Two. There's still a lot of work to do, but we shouldn't dminish the accomplishments to date either.

Nice post. And I agree.

[tylenoljones]

It gives me a somewhat sick feeling to see that 6/10 of the top selling comics last year were AvX. It makes me even more sick that I bought into that crap.

Shame on me.

I won't dispute that AvX was garbage, but it's not as though buying any other mainstream DC superhero book is any better. Would it somehow be better to buy the Justice League / Aquaman crossover than AvX?

They made up for it with relaunch waves, family crossovers and Before Watchmen. Just saying.

Precisely. I don't understand how one (and I'm speaking hypothetically here, not calling out liopleurodon or anyone specific) might call something like AvX shameless and on the other hand support a company that puts out books like Before Watchmen. I also don't understand the attitude that line wide crossovers are worse than crossovers between a family of books. If one is a shameful practice, then it stands to reason that the other would be as well, regardless of the scale of the crossover in question.

[glennsim]

I won't dispute that AvX was garbage, but it's not as though buying any other mainstream DC superhero book is any better. Would it somehow be better to buy the Justice League / Aquaman crossover than AvX?



Precisely. I don't understand how one (and I'm speaking hypothetically here, not calling out liopleurodon or anyone specific) might call something like AvX shameless and on the other hand support a company that puts out books like Before Watchmen. I also don't understand the attitude that line wide crossovers are worse than crossovers between a family of books. If one is a shameful practice, then it stands to reason that the other would be as well, regardless of the scale of the crossover in question.

Just for the sake of discussion, could it be argued that if someone is buying "Batman" there's a high likelihood that they are also already buying other Bat-books so a crossover between them isn't going to create any disruption, but if "Batman" crosses over with "Firestorm", there's an increased chance of someone having to buy something they didn't already buy? Or conversely, that you either buy Before Watchmen or you don't, but if you don't, the books you already buy aren't affected.

All of which is to suggest that a line-wide crossover has more dramatic effects on the wallet (in terms of buying books you might not ordinarily buy) than a family-wide crossover or a self-enclosed "event".

This is of course assuming for purposes of discussion that one doesn't want to just skip the crossover/event all together or just read the parts they would have bought anyway.

[tylenoljones]

Just for the sake of discussion, could it be argued that if someone is buying "Batman" there's a high likelihood that they are also already buying other Bat-books so a crossover between them isn't going to create any disruption, but if "Batman" crosses over with "Firestorm", there's an increased chance of someone having to buy something they didn't already buy? Or conversely, that you either buy Before Watchmen or you don't, but if you don't, the books you already buy aren't affected.

All of which is to suggest that a line-wide crossover has more dramatic effects on the wallet (in terms of buying books you might not ordinarily buy) than a family-wide crossover or a self-enclosed "event".

This is of course assuming for purposes of discussion that one doesn't want to just skip the crossover/event all together or just read the parts they would have bought anyway.

I think that is the argument, that perhaps these smaller crossovers are less disruptive and therefore not as bad. But it also stands to reason that if these smaller crossovers are successful, they'll eventually turn into something larger, akin to Infinite Crisis, or Civil War, or even the upcoming Trinity War. Before Watchmen is a standalone kind of thing, and it's a little harder to quantify; but it does hold all the characteristics of a big event or crossover without bleeding into the main universe. Content of the books aside, it's a similar model.

Anyway, if someone's position is that crossovers in general are "bad", then I can't understand supporting any crossover on any scale. That actually is my position; as I actively stay away from big events. Which is why it's hard for me to fathom someone saying AvX is terrible (in terms other than the storytelling) and then they go out and buy up the Death of the Family crossover, for instance.

To be fair, I've seen more instances of this kind of behavior in my own personal life than I have on these forums, but I do see people that seem to support one of the "Big Two" over the other; and are happy to condemn one and praise another for essentially the same practices.

[USERNAME TAKEN]

Given that comics is a small niche market, anyway, I think DC is doing pretty well. Obviously not 90's good, but comics aren't going to reach those highs anymore. Especially, since DC and Marvel are relying on events/relaunching to boost sales. The comic industry has never been better, IMO. There is more diversity than ever.

DC and Marvel are doing pretty well given the circumstances but I don't agree about the industry being better than ever before.

It's been its best since the mid 2000s but that's only because of the big events and re-launches.

While I realize that we have different opinions,I witnessed a lot more (and I mean a whole lot more) diversity in product offering from the big two in the 80s and early 90s than now.

[USERNAME TAKEN]

I think that is the argument, that perhaps these smaller crossovers are less disruptive and therefore not as bad. But it also stands to reason that if these smaller crossovers are successful, they'll eventually turn into something larger, akin to Infinite Crisis, or Civil War, or even the upcoming Trinity War. Before Watchmen is a standalone kind of thing, and it's a little harder to quantify; but it does hold all the characteristics of a big event or crossover without bleeding into the main universe. Content of the books aside, it's a similar model.

Anyway, if someone's position is that crossovers in general are "bad", then I can't understand supporting any crossover on any scale. That actually is my position; as I actively stay away from big events. Which is why it's hard for me to fathom someone saying AvX is terrible (in terms other than the storytelling) and then they go out and buy up the Death of the Family crossover, for instance.

To be fair, I've seen more instances of this kind of behavior in my own personal life than I have on these forums, but I do see people that seem to support one of the "Big Two" over the other; and are happy to condemn one and praise another for essentially the same practices.

Good point.

Both Marvel and DC (and some independents) employ sales gimmicks to boost sales. It's not restricted to anyone of them and it really doesn't make much sense to criticize one over the other.

[golgi]

DC and Marvel are doing pretty well given the circumstances but I don't agree about the industry being better than ever before.

It's been its best since the mid 2000s but that's only because of the big events and re-launches.

While I realize that we have different opinions,I witnessed a lot more (and I mean a whole lot more) diversity in product offering from the big two in the 80s and early 90s than now.

I'm not just speaking about the big 2, but IDW, Image, Dark Horse, Boom!, Valiant, etc... There is a lot of good stuff to read.

[CrimsonLightning]

There is a lot of good news here, but we always need to look at this stuff with a grain of salt.
The good news is that DC is viable competition for Marvel again. This will keep both companies on their toes and hopefully push through some really great stories.
The Bad news in my eyes - Events and Cross overs. Those saying that DC didn't have an event this year clearly didn't read any of the books DC put out. DC's main sales event for the year was Before Watchmen which was roughly the same size and far more expensive than any event that Marvel put out this year. Complain all you want about the dozens of AVX comics, but BW was basically the same. As far as no universe wide crossovers to mess with stories. DC replaced one company event with tons of little crossovers and mini-events that dragged books out of thier normal flow and messed with the story progression of certain characters for example, Court of Owls, The Titans event, Rotworld, Death of the Family, H'el on earth, and the biggest piece of crap "0" month.

As far as the future is concerned. I am very hopeful. The events will fuel interest in the companies and continue to be the big summer blockbusters, making the comic industry mirror the movie industry a little more. I think a positive thing to take out of this year is that DC seems to be trying whatever they can to keep mid tier and lower tier characters going. Bleeding Cool just anounced a big push by DC to shake up these mid/lower tier books. The New 52 was a great idea if you were one of DC's big names. If you were a derivitive character, niche character, or non Justice league character the relaunch has not been so favoriable to you. DC knows this and is putting a big push in the works for these titles. I am hopeful that they cana revitilize thier lower half of books and make thier line more competitive with Marvel.

As far as Marvel is concerned. I think they have listened to peoples complaints about the double shipping and high prices. If you look at the current Marvel books there are a lot of 2.99 books, and they have drastically reduced their line so people are more inclined to pick up double ship books.

I guess where I'm going with this is that both the big 2 companies seem to be listening to the fans and trying to get them what they want. We complain of creator changes in low selling titles at DC which make the books bad, so they create a push to revitilize the line with new creative directions. We complain about double shipping titles and high prices so Marvel reduces their line to accomodate. I'm hopeful that the future of the industry will be more based on listening to the fanbase and adjusting sales to our needs.

[nightrider]

I won't dispute that AvX was garbage, but it's not as though buying any other mainstream DC superhero book is any better. Would it somehow be better to buy the Justice League / Aquaman crossover than AvX?



Precisely. I don't understand how one (and I'm speaking hypothetically here, not calling out liopleurodon or anyone specific) might call something like AvX shameless and on the other hand support a company that puts out books like Before Watchmen. I also don't understand the attitude that line wide crossovers are worse than crossovers between a family of books. If one is a shameful practice, then it stands to reason that the other would be as well, regardless of the scale of the crossover in question.

And yet Marvel screwed over Jack Kirby and Gary Friedrich. Big deal, people are still buying Marvel.
Just get over the whole dissing Before Watchmen crap. All DC did was put more money in Alan Moore's pocket despite him not wanting it.

[Mister Ferro]

The Bad news in my eyes - Events and Cross overs. Those saying that DC didn't have an event this year clearly didn't read any of the books DC put out. DC's main sales event for the year was Before Watchmen which was roughly the same size and far more expensive than any event that Marvel put out this year. Complain all you want about the dozens of AVX comics, but BW was basically the same.

Sure BW is roughly the same size as AvX.... If by roughly the same size you actually mean half the size of AvX. And sure BW is far more expensive than AvX considering that BW is half the size and DC is the company that offers the least amount of books at 3.99 compared to Marvel.

All you are doing is stating false facts. So next time do a little bit of research before making this type of comparison again.

[CrimsonLightning]

Sure BW is roughly the same size as AvX.... If by roughly the same size you actually mean half the size of AvX. And sure BW is far more expensive than AvX considering that BW is half the size and DC is the company that offers the least amount of books at 3.99 compared to Marvel.

All you are doing is stating false facts. So next time do a little bit of research before making this type of comparison again.

Sorry for the confusion. I was not speaking from a retail stand point. When I said "same size" I was not speaking to the amount of titles. I meant it was similar in the fact that it was the big hyped event of the season for DC as compared to Marvel's AVX.

As far as expensive also not from a retail standpoint. BW was more expensive for DC to put out then it was for Marvel to put out AVX. I don't have the sight anymore but I remember back last march or april someone posted a link as to how the creators for BW were hired and how much they were being paid.

I'm also not sure as to what you mean by the 2.99 comment. I never said anything about Marvel offering more 2.99 titles then DC. And as far as BW is concerned if my memory serves correct that entire event was 3.99 just like AVX.

[Mister Ferro]

Sorry for the confusion. I was not speaking from a retail stand point. When I said "same size" I was not speaking to the amount of titles. I meant it was similar in the fact that it was the big hyped event of the season for DC as compared to Marvel's AVX.

As far as expensive also not from a retail standpoint. BW was more expensive for DC to put out then it was for Marvel to put out AVX. I don't have the sight anymore but I remember back last march or april someone posted a link as to how the creators for BW were hired and how much they were being paid.

Than you should have used "Hype" in your post. In regards to your expensive comment, I thought you meant in regards to readers and not about how much the creators were being paid. Marvel also paid their creators for AvX too, but of course DC wanted to pay the BW creators "more" if it meant they produce comics that would be big sellers which mean more money for DC. Ergo the cost of producing BW is offset by the profit that BW generates for DC.

[Brannon]

DC and Marvel are doing pretty well given the circumstances but I don't agree about the industry being better than ever before.

It's been its best since the mid 2000s but that's only because of the big events and re-launches.

While I realize that we have different opinions,I witnessed a lot more (and I mean a whole lot more) diversity in product offering from the big two in the 80s and early 90s than now.

Yeah, I don't get that either. At one time Marvel and DC published numerous war, western, horror and fantasy titles. Now, you have to go to Dark Horse, IDW, etc, for that sort of thing. I think each publisher has become far more niche. Certainly the major ones.

[CrimsonLightning]

Than you should have used "Hype" in your post. In regards to your expensive comment, I thought you meant in regards to readers and not about how much the creators were being paid. Marvel also paid their creators for AvX too, but of course DC wanted to pay the BW creators "more" if it meant they produce comics that would be big sellers which mean more money for DC. Ergo the cost of producing BW is offset by the profit that BW generates for DC.

This is correct, you pay more money for things that are going to be big sellers. As far as the expense goes, I will try and find the link, I think it was bleeding cool or maybe CBR. But BW was incredibly expensive to put on, the card stock and quality of paper was upgraded for the books, the cover stock was upgraded for the books. They paid the creators more for the books. Advertsising was again expensive for the books similar to the push for the NU52. What I thought was interesting was the amount of money that was "supposedly" paid to Gibbons and offered to Moore. I have seen reports that both creators get a percentage of royalty from the project no matter what, I have also seen sights that say Gibbons excepted a check of six figures just to endorse the comics. Overall a very expensive undertaking.

And you're right will it pay off, definitely. There is not a doubt in my mind that BW is going to be a huge money maker. The books have consistently sold more than 50K copies per issue and some of the number 1's were in the 100k range. All this is before the collections come out. All in all throughout time BW will be a larger money maker than AVX. However as far as the 2012 numbers are concerned AVX looks like the winning event of the year. The differences between the two will be their staying power. AVX will be replaced quickly with Ultron War, which will be replace by the next event, so on and so on. BW will have more staying power because it looks like DC is going to keep this current series riding for at least a couple of years.

[Mister Ferro]

This is correct, you pay more money for things that are going to be big sellers. As far as the expense goes, I will try and find the link, I think it was bleeding cool or maybe CBR. But BW was incredibly expensive to put on, the card stock and quality of paper was upgraded for the books, the cover stock was upgraded for the books. They paid the creators more for the books. Advertsising was again expensive for the books similar to the push for the NU52. What I thought was interesting was the amount of money that was "supposedly" paid to Gibbons and offered to Moore. I have seen reports that both creators get a percentage of royalty from the project no matter what, I have also seen sights that say Gibbons excepted a check of six figures just to endorse the comics. Overall a very expensive undertaking.

And you're right will it pay off, definitely. There is not a doubt in my mind that BW is going to be a huge money maker. The books have consistently sold more than 50K copies per issue and some of the number 1's were in the 100k range. All this is before the collections come out. All in all throughout time BW will be a larger money maker than AVX. However as far as the 2012 numbers are concerned AVX looks like the winning event of the year. The differences between the two will be their staying power. AVX will be replaced quickly with Ultron War, which will be replace by the next event, so on and so on. BW will have more staying power because it looks like DC is going to keep this current series riding for at least a couple of years.

I can totally agree to everything you just wrote.