Is DC even going to try to compete with Marvel on the big screen?

[Flashpoint]

Martian Manhunter could work well if they call him John Jonnez(sp?) instead. And if they use his Nu suit instead of that weird underwear and chest buckle thing. That would not translate well on screen...

And as far as the size-changers go, they don't have to change their sizes as much as they would in the comics. Going from 6ft --> 12 ft would be enough IMO. 100ft tall is overkill. (outside of comics that is).

But that is sort of an unspoken Holy Grail in film and television: to be able to do or make a realistic giant character. Everybody wants to do it and make it look cool. But every time Hollywood creates a live-action giant human being, it always come off looking silly and laughable--like those old Japanese monster movies where everyone screams and runs away in terror from guys in rubber suits on green screens.

I do think "The Incredible Shrinking Man" was a surprisingly effective take on size-changing power--and so was "Fantastic Voyage." It seems like it's far easier to do small heroes than giant ones. Which gives me hope that there's a very outside chance we could one day many years from now actually see a decent movie of THE ATOM or THE MICRONAUTS.

[Flashpoint]

Is that why Nick Fury's black? I thought it was because they were going with the Ultimate version of the character. Before creating Ultimate Nick Fury, Samuel L. Jackson said that they could use his likeness if he got to play the character in the movies.

Oh, I know that. But the whole issue of changing a character's race from a book or graphic novel to a film or TV show is highly controversial. Given the fanboy outrage that greeted Fox's Daredevil which made The Kingpin black, I'm still amazed how totally uncontroversial a black Nick Fury has been. It may be just because they "established" it in the Ultimate Universe comics first so that was "ok" with fanboys. But the sad part is, it means you'll probably never see the original Nick Fury on the silver screen because it might provoke accusations of racism from non-comic readers who don't know that Nick Fury was originally a white man.

MM is like.. 6'8. He's hardly 'little'.

Does everyone know that there isn't life on Mars? I thought scientists still believed that it was possible. People don't believe in Martians? How many believe in Kryptonians? Or Atlanteans? Or a magical land of female warriors from Antiquity? Whether Martians are real or not, MM can work in a movie. And he could be the non-white character in the group.

RE: using aliens with blue/green/orange skin as replacements for black and Hispanic actors

Again, highly controversial and not well received by their respective communities--and I'm more than inclined to agree with them.

Yeah, Jack Black in Gullivers Travels didn't look silly to me. It could work.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see Joss Whedon inserting a Giant Man into his Avengers movie without it detracting from the overwhelmingly real world-based tone of most Marvel movies.

[carabas]

I think you're seriously underestimating public knowledge of Flash.

Public knowledge is one thing, but I think you're seriously overestimating the willingness of the mainstream audience to going to see a film about a guy in a bright red suit who runs really fast. Even if they do know who he is.

[Lee-Sensei]

Oh, I know that. But the whole issue of changing a character's race from a book or graphic novel to a film or TV show is highly controversial. Given the fanboy outrage that greeted Fox's Daredevil which made The Kingpin black, I'm still amazed how totally uncontroversial a black Nick Fury has been. It may be just because they "established" it in the Ultimate Universe comics first so that was "ok" with fanboys. But the sad part is, it means you'll probably never see the original Nick Fury on the silver screen because it might provoke accusations of racism from non-comic readers who don't know that Nick Fury was originally a white man.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../0b/N_Fury.jpg

Kingpin I can kind of understand. He's huge, so it would be pretty hard to find someone that big.

Most of the times, I'm against racelifting though.

I guess.

RE: using aliens with blue/green/orange skin as replacements for black and Hispanic actors

Would it be? Martian Manhunter using a black form as his disguise would be fine. It would probably keep fanboys from raging, and give some diversity to the cast.

Again, highly controversial and not well received by their respective communities--and I'm more than inclined to agree with them.

Aliens minorities aren't well received? I haven't seen this.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see Joss Whedon inserting a Giant Man into his Avengers movie without it detracting from the overwhelmingly real world-based tone of most Marvel movies.

Realism? Like Thor, right?

[Flashpoint]

Public knowledge is one thing, but I think you're seriously overestimating the willingness of the mainstream audience to going to see a film about a guy in a bright red suit who runs really fast. Even if they do know who he is.

In all fairness, the same thing could be said about most superheroes and their colorful costumes.

Spider-Man: a guy in a bright red and blue suit with the strength of a spider. How many bright red and blue spiders are there? And how strong is a spider? You kill them by stepping on them.

Cyclops means a guy with one eye (oo, scary). Daredevil and Moon Knight hunt down criminals at night...in bright red and bright white suits. Or Batman with a bright yellow circle directly over his heart. Those are all like spotlights for criminals saying, "HEY! I'M OVER HERE!! BEAT ME, STAB ME AND SHOOT ME FULL OF BULLETS!!!"

The Flash can move at the speed of light and travel through time. You are so not ever going to shoot a man who can move faster than bullets. Just ask Neo.

[RoughNTumble]

Okay I was thinking about this last night, and do you guys really think that making a justice league movie with the intent to spin off into franchises is the best idea?

You

1. will be picking from a smaller and likely less talented pool of actors for your cast. you aren't going to see someone like christian bale playing batman in a justice league movie. You're gonna get a bunch of young people and possibly even a top model like they had cast for wonder woman in justice league mortal. Both because of having to share the spotlight with others and sheer cost of talent.

2. You will then be forced to go with that actor in the spinoff. Let's say a director pitches this great vision for a flash movie to WB, but then they tell him, 'you know what, you're the right guy for the job, but we need you to use this actor and stay consistent with the tone of the JL movie instead of doing your own thing.' What if JL mortal had come before nolan's batman? WB would likely have told him to use armie hammer and go with a more fantastical tone. This isn't the way you get the critical success and respect these movies deserve. Creators need to rule each different hero with their own vision, and when a new creator steps on, let them do their own thing.

3. From all the complaining about editorial mandates in comics that screw up great stories, do we really want a DCU ruled by studio mandates? A studio unlike DC editorial that doesn't actually give a hoot about the characters and stories beyond turning a buck? This is a problem with comics that people somehow seem eager to embrace in another medium.

4. This project would be much, much more difficult to pull of successfully than any individual superhero movie would--even wonder woman. And if it fails? You are f***ing all of these characters.

Not every superhero movie has to be WB's summer tentpole film. Why not give us booster gold on a budget with a creator that cares? Or a green arrow movie? Throw some creativity at these properties, not just money like with green lantern.

[Hulk_Is]

Marvel fans should know after Daredevil, Elektra, FF 1 & 2, Blade 3, Spider-man 3, X-Men 3, Generation X, Ghost Rider 1 & 2, Punisher, Punisher: War Zone, Hulk, Incredible Hulk. You guys have oodles of experience with crappy renderings and have gotten a silver lining. What's not to look forward to?

Most of Marvel's characters are expendable in that you can keep putting out movies and largely no one cares. I think DC characters need a bit more TLC in order to "make them work" on the big screen. DC characters have a heavier weight to bear somewhat than do Marvel characters as to performing to large audiences. Had the GL movie been a Silver Surfer one, it wouldn't have been as lameted because, as you've hinted at, Marvel has already set a precedent of good and bad with their films, so people already know what to expect.

DC has mega-hits in Supes and Bats, characters that share that patented DC mythological-sized magic that others such as WW, Flash, and Aquaman share. So, you can't just plaster those to the big screen and keep churning out duds like Green Lantern. IMO

[Flashpoint]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../0b/N_Fury.jpg

Kingpin I can kind of understand. He's huge, so it would be pretty hard to find someone that big.

Most of the times, I'm against racelifting though.

I guess.

Would it be? Martian Manhunter using a black form as his disguise would be fine. It would probably keep fanboys from raging, and give some diversity to the cast.

Aliens minorities aren't well received? I haven't seen this.

Realism? Like Thor, right?

Nothing anyone is going to say here or elsewhere is going to convince me that Martian Manhunter is a good idea for a Justice League movie. He belongs in Stormwatch and works well there--much better, in fact, since he's a stealthy Manhunter. The JLA already has that in Batman and a telepath in Aquaman. Plus, it gets Cyborg (a human African-American) a leading role. For me, the case is closed. I'm not open to the idea, not at all.

And yes, Marvel has made making their heroes more real world-based a hallmark of their movies. I mean, do I really need to link to all the arguments and fanboy rage that exploded when people saw the X-Men's movie costumes? Accusations of Marvel copying The Matrix became a cause celebre all over the Internet. All the sturm and drang even led to them including Hugh Jackman's famous line, "What did you expect--yellow spandex?"

They gave Spidey organic webshooters because they didn't think it would be realistic for Peter Parker to be brilliant enough to create web fluid without being a rich genius from his scientific discovery. (Yes, I know it has now been changed back, but you see my point.)

Thor can't wear his own friggin' Norse Viking helmet in the movies because it looks silly to them. They let him wear for it all of, what, 30 seconds in his own damn movie?

They didn't even think the Phoenix costume and the Phoenix Effect would work onscreen because they thought it would look silly or absurd. Hence, we got Jean Grey in a long red coat instead in X3.

If you think Marvel doesn't strive to make their movies look as real world-based as possible, you're kidding yourself. Hawkeye isn't even allowed to wear purple, for Pete's sake, because they couldn't figure out how to make that look plausible. And you're asking them to bring in Jack Black-style giants? Good luck with that.

EDIT: Aliens as a replacement for human racial minorities is usually not well-received by the human racial minorities being replaced, no. (But I'll save explaining and detailing that for one of the diversity threads.)

[comicboy53]

[QUOTE=Mat001;14873697]

Warner didn't buy DC, the Kiney Corporation did, after WB was bought by them. When it folded, WB kept all of the properties that had been acquired, including DC. But they didn't have much in the way of desire to make films with them, which is why they optioned the film and television rights to Superman and all related characters to the Salkinds, who would largely self-finance the Superman films. And yes, Batman will be rebooted since it's already been indicated that that will happen based on the way TDKR ends.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Lee-Sensei]

In all fairness, the same thing could be said about most superheroes and their colorful costumes.

Spider-Man: a guy in a bright red and blue suit with the strength of a spider. How many bright red and blue spiders are there? And how strong is a spider? You kill them by stepping on them.

Cyclops means a guy with one eye (oo, scary). Daredevil and Moon Knight hunt down criminals at night...in bright red and bright white suits. Or Batman with a bright yellow circle directly over his heart. Those are all like spotlights for criminals saying, "HEY! I'M OVER HERE!! BEAT ME, STAB ME AND SHOOT ME FULL OF BULLETS!!!"

The Flash can move at the speed of light and travel through time. You are so not ever going to shoot a man who can move faster than bullets. Just ask Neo.

I agree with most of this, but a cyclops is a one eyed giant. So, yeah... scary.

And Spidey has the proportional strength of a spider.

Nothing anyone is going to say here or elsewhere is going to convince me that Martian Manhunter is a good idea for a Justice League movie. He belongs in Stormwatch and works well there--much better, in fact, since he's a stealthy Manhunter. The JLA already has that in Batman and a telepath in Aquaman. Plus, it gets Cyborg (a human African-American) a leading role. For me, the case is closed. I'm not open to the idea, not at all.

And yes, Marvel has made making their heroes more real world-based a hallmark of their movies. I mean, do I really need to link to all the arguments and fanboy rage that exploded when people saw the X-Men's movie costumes? Accusations of Marvel copying The Matrix became a cause celebre all over the Internet. All the sturm and drang even led to them including Hugh Jackman's famous line, "What did you expect--yellow spandex?"

They gave Spidey organic webshooters because they didn't think it would be realistic for Peter Parker to be brilliant enough to create web fluid without being a rich genius from his scientific discovery. (Yes, I know it has now been changed back, but you see my point.)

Thor can't wear his own friggin' Norse Viking helmet in the movies because it looks silly to them. They let him wear for it all of, what, 30 seconds in his own damn movie?

They didn't even think the Phoenix costume and the Phoenix Effect would work onscreen because they thought it would look silly or absurd. Hence, we got Jean Grey in a long red coat instead in X3.

If you think Marvel doesn't strive to make their movies look as real world-based as possible, you're kidding yourself. Hawkeye isn't even allowed to wear purple, for Pete's sake, because they couldn't figure out how to make that look plausible. And you're asking them to bring in Jack Black-style giants? Good luck with that.

EDIT: Aliens as a replacement for human racial minorities is usually not well-received by the human racial minorities being replaced, no. (But I'll save explaining and detailing that for one of the diversity threads.)

Well, don't be surprised if MM ends up in a Justice League movie down the line. It's more realistic than a lot of things.

And about the realism of Marvel comics? A scientist creating growth and shrinking technology is a lot more realistic than a Norse God with magic living on Earth, and being the prince of an other worldy race where magic and science collide. Thor's movie made almost a half a billion dollars.

Yeah, I haven't seen any minorities getting upset about that.

[Reginleif]

Nick Furry makes more sense as a blackman than a white one. Samual L Jackson has sold the role that well

[carabas]

The Flash can move at the speed of light and travel through time.

See, while the general audiance may have heard of the Flash, he's just some loser who can run really fast to them. Not a time-travelling dude who can punch out Superman to the other side of the planet if need be.

[Flashpoint]

Sorry this is so longwinded, but I felt you raised some very serious concerns which I wanted to address in great detail. Please bear with me.
________________

Okay I was thinking about this last night, and do you guys really think that making a justice league movie with the intent to spin off into franchises is the best idea?

You
1. will be picking from a smaller and likely less talented pool of actors for your cast. you aren't going to see someone like christian bale playing batman in a justice league movie. You're gonna get a bunch of young people and possibly even a top model like they had cast for wonder woman in justice league mortal. Both because of having to share the spotlight with others and sheer cost of talent.

Nolan has turned Batman into a bigger success than he ever was before bringing in not only the dollars, but also praise from serious movie critics and Oscar awards for acting. The trick for WB now is to reboot the Batman franchise within the context of a shared universe (which is thankfully possible now that the sole obstacle to it, Christopher Nolan, is no longer directing Batman). WB is trying to figure out how to include Batman in the Justice League without killing the success Nolan brought them with his take on Batman.

It is all up in the air. They could decide that because of GL's box office that it is too big a risk and just back-burner JL again in favor of a Batman reboot. But the comics almost always follow the film and that's because the movies make so much more money. (More on that last detail in the next portion of my post.) Ergo, what we're seeing with the relatively new DC Entertainment and the New 52 reflects key elements (not all, but many) of what WB would like to exploit in TV and film. Marvel has done this for over a decade with their comics reflecting changes made to the movies, especially costumes. Nick Fury is apparently now going to have a black son in their main universe to reflect Jackson's movie version of Nick Fury.

Look for clues to what WB wants to do in the DCnU relaunch. Some elements of what WB would like to see will be reflected in the comics for marketing purposes (which is also what they did when they changed Superman's costume in 1997 to match Tim Burton's aborted film).

As far as casting Wonder Woman...it's a different regime at WB now. More importantly, Marvel has set the pace as far as superheroes go. You'll get a decent actress this time and most likely an unknown like Christopher Reeve was. As for Bale, the new Batman actor who fits in with a potential shared DC movie universe can easily transition to work with whatever director they choose to reboot the individual Batman films. The central quandary WB is wrestling with now is whether or not to go ahead with Justice League, and if so, how to do it successfully. If their team can figure out a way to do it, they absolutely will. Why? $$$$--and also to counter criticism rife in Hollywood and amongst the public that they "can't" do it. Corporate executives are viciously competitive and the moment you tell them they can't do something or that only Marvel can do it, you're pretty much daring them to do it. Most of the time, studio egos will take that bet if only to prove their detractors wrong and win the fight.

Robinov wants a Justice League movie. He has gone to his team to figure out *if* it can be done. Diane Nelson and Geoff Johns have input into that; they're on WB's team. I don't believe for a second that any of them don't think they can do it; they're just trying to figure out how to do for DC what Marvel has done for themselves. More importantly, the L.A. Times has done very high profile interviews with Robinov, Nelson and Johns who have gone on record saying they want to do more DC movies and have success like Marvel has.

I don't see any of these people quitting or giving up. They want this and they are trying their damnedest to figure out how to pull it off.

The original Justice League script you're referring to was developed pre-RDJ Iron Man and pre-Marvel shared universe movies. Marvel changed the game. They have had huge box office hits scoring hundreds of millions of dollars with their shared universe movies. Now WB wants in on that action. The JLA Mortal project was created in 2007 and died in 2008 right before Iron Man came out. RDJ's unprecedented success in the role, all the money Marvel made and how audiences bought into the shared universe concept changed everything.

[carabas]

Nick Furry

[Flashpoint]

2. You will then be forced to go with that actor in the spinoff. Let's say a director pitches this great vision for a flash movie to WB, but then they tell him, 'you know what, you're the right guy for the job, but we need you to use this actor and stay consistent with the tone of the JL movie instead of doing your own thing.' What if JL mortal had come before nolan's batman? WB would likely have told him to use armie hammer and go with a more fantastical tone. This isn't the way you get the critical success and respect these movies deserve. Creators need to rule each different hero with their own vision, and when a new creator steps on, let them do their own thing.

Bad argument. The reality is, if JL Mortal had come out and bombed, it would be treated like Singer's Superman and promptly buried forever.

Now, if it had been a hit? You've got a different set of circumstances. Then, yes, they would've done like Fox did with Daredevil (and hoped to do with FF): spinoff movies (like Elektra and the aborted Silver Surfer project). But the fact is, it never happened.

Robinov is the head of Warner Brothers with, as L.A. Times stated, "ultimate say" to make a movie happen. And he shocked everyone by going on record with his desire to do a Justice League movie. You're using what-ifs to make your case instead of using the facts--and the fact is, Robinov wants this. His team of executives is trying to figure out how to do this. The only way it's not happening is if they all put their heads together and come to the same conclusion, "No, Jeff, this isn't working. We can't find a way to do this that would guarantee minimal success. Let it go and just stick with Superman and Batman."

Using the what-ifs you're using, Marvel would have stopped trying to get movies made 20 years ago after FOUR humongous bombs and colossal failures: Lundgren's Punisher, Corman's FF, Salinger's Captain America, James Cameron's Spider-Man. They didn't. They kept trying.

If your case is that a Justice League movie can't be done for the reasons you've stated or in the way you've stated, that isn't going to stop them from trying. Just the opposite--and Marvel's continuing success as a box office juggernaut is why. As a matter of fact, the more Marvel movies we get? The more WB (and others) get green with envy and try to copy what they've done.

The Avengers movie and its likely success is going to embolden WB to make Justice League, not dissuade them. They certainly won't do Wonder Woman first; it's too risky and they've never been able to figure out how to do it. Flash has a very outside chance as an Iron Man/Thor/Cap-type of bridge to a Justice League movie *if* WB decides to follow the Marvel model. There is a very credible argument to be made for a Flash movie as a lead-in to a JL movie instead of using GL2 for that.

But the only way it's going to be WW is if Nicholas Refn has a huge box office hit with his next film and then champions his idea for a WW project. That's the only real shot WW has right now; it's probably going to be GL2 or Flash.