Is DC even going to try to compete with Marvel on the big screen?

[Lee-Sensei]

Bad argument. The reality is, if JL Mortal had come out and bombed, it would be treated like Singer's Superman and promptly buried forever.

Now, if it had been a hit? You've got a different set of circumstances. Then, yes, they would've done like Fox did with Daredevil (and hoped to do with FF): spinoff movies (like Elektra and the aborted Silver Surfer project). But the fact is, it never happened.

Robinov is the head of Warner Brothers with, as L.A. Times stated, "ultimate say" to make a movie happen. And he shocked everyone by going on record with his desire to do a Justice League movie. You're using what-ifs to make your case instead of using the facts--and the fact is, Robinov wants this. His team of executives is trying to figure out how to do this. The only way it's not happening is if they all put their heads together and come to the same conclusion, "No, Jeff, this isn't working. We can't find a way to do this that would guarantee minimal success. Let it go and just stick with Superman and Batman."

Using the what-ifs you're using, Marvel would have stopped trying to get movies made 20 years ago after FOUR humongous bombs and colossal failures: Lundgren's Punisher, Corman's FF, Salinger's Captain America, James Cameron's Spider-Man. They didn't. They kept trying.

If your case is that a Justice League movie can't be done for the reasons you've stated or in the way you've stated, that isn't going to stop them from trying. Just the opposite--and Marvel's continuing success as a box office juggernaut is why. As a matter of fact, the more Marvel movies we get? The more WB (and others) get green with envy and try to copy what they've done.

The Avengers movie and its likely success is going to embolden WB to make Justice League, not dissuade them. They certainly won't do Wonder Woman first; it's too risky and they've never been able to figure out how to do it. Flash has a very outside chance as an Iron Man/Thor/Cap-type of bridge to a Justice League movie *if* WB decides to follow the Marvel model. There is a very credible argument to be made for a Flash movie as a lead-in to a JL movie instead of using GL2 for that.

But the only way it's going to be WW is if Nicholas Refn has a huge box office hit with his next film and then champions his idea for a WW project. That's the only real shot WW has right now; it's probably going to be GL2 or Flash.

^The first movie they'd probably put out is a Batman one. Followed by Superman.

[Flashpoint]

3. From all the complaining about editorial mandates in comics that screw up great stories, do we really want a DCU ruled by studio mandates? A studio unlike DC editorial that doesn't actually give a hoot about the characters and stories beyond turning a buck? This is a problem with comics that people somehow seem eager to embrace in another medium.

DC has always been ruled by studio mandates and Marvel has taken many of their cues from their movies (which is a frequent complaint of Marvel fans: "Why do they have to change the comic books to match the movie costumes, dammit?!") I mean, look at what happened to Superman in 1997; that was done solely to match the aborted movie costume.

Movie studio executives are not the cast of Kevin Smith's "Comic Book Men." Look to what Smith went through dealing with Jon Peters on the aborted Superman Lives. You can't get around it. Smith is a comic geek and he went through absolute hell trying to make a decent Superman script. Fortunately, I think Jeff Robinov is a whole lot more savvy than the walking tower of ego known as Jon Peters. And unlike Peters, Robinov appears to have a good working relationship with Geoff Johns and Diane Nelson, the people who run and produce the comics.

Everyone who loves DC and wants to see them be as successful in theaters as Marvel has been (and continues to be) should be sucking up to Johns like there is no tomorrow because Johns has Robinov's ear as well as the ears of other executives at WB. There is no bigger DC fan than Johns and his input to WB's movie development process is the most important of all to me because he will fight to keep the movies true to the characters.

I hasten to remind people that WB years ago had a GL comedy featuring Jack Black as something that they thought sounded like a great idea. It is because of people like Geoff that we got a GL movie that wasn't a glorified SNL skit featuring a fat comedian in latex. We got Mark Strong as Sinestro. We got the Guardians of the Universe. We got friggin' Tomar-Re voiced by Geoffrey Rush and a believable, kick-ass Kilowog. There are things they got right and an equal amount of credit for the things they got right should be given to Geoff when people are rushing to assign blame for what they got wrong.

If we're going to get more DC superhero movies whether we like it or not, I'd much prefer Diane and Geoff from DC have input than leaving these projects to the studio heads alone. Diane and Geoff clearly love their jobs and love DC and they may be the only reason the next batch of DC movies is better than the last. The studio heads hate listening to us, but they will listen to them. They are our only hope and that's who we need to direct our comments and concerns to. Robinov and his execs are interested in what moviegoers think, what Diane and Geoff think--not us. And since Diane and Geoff depend on us to buy their product, we damn sure are going to have to depend on them to represent us to their bosses when these films inevitably get made.

[bobbyraw]

Before the movie I would have agreed with you. But being the main character in a big movie got GL a lot of recognition. Neither of them are worldwide icons yet, but at least for now I'd say that GL is a bigger name. Flash hasn't done anything mainstream in a while. GL has a tv show and a movie that just came out a few months ago.

I know. I was talking about pre-movie popularity levels. (The guy I was replying to had responded to one of my earlier posts regarding Flash's relative popularity before the GL, Iron Man, Thor, Cap, etc movies).

[Flashpoint]

4. This project would be much, much more difficult to pull of successfully than any individual superhero movie would--even wonder woman. And if it fails? You are f***ing all of these characters.

You are dead wrong on Wonder Woman. History itself proves you wrong.

Joel Silver has fought valiantly to try and get WW made for over a decade, if not more. The list of directors who want to work on WW is probably in the single digits--and most of them are men who don't hold exactly enlightened views on sexy female leads. Sexism and misogyny are rife in Hollywood and claiming otherwise is delusional. Yes, there are exceptions to this. But the cold hard truth is that female-led action pics & superhero pics have a pretty bad history on the silver screen. People need to stop pointing at Sigourney Weaver, Linda Hamilton, Milla Jovovich and Angelina Jolie and claiming it's easy to make a good WW movie. Weaver and Hamilton aren't doing summer blockbusters anymore. Jovovich is stuck in the Resident Evil ghetto and those films don't do Marvel movie numbers. Jolie is pushing 40 and wants to direct and act in dramas. Those aren't stellar cases for a WW movie.

Using Marvel again, a quadruple failure of Punisher, FF, Cap and Spidey in the early Nineties didn't stop Marvel from trying in Hollywood. If a JL movie is made and if it fails? It won't be the end of DC's movie hopes. Far from it. Part of the reason WB has kept such a lockdown on info about the DC movie development process after TDKR and MOS is that they know their backs are against the wall. They know the hardcore DC consumer base (who they depend on desperately to show up en masse on opening weekend for ALL their superhero movies) are disappointed and angry. They want and need our money and they want and need everyone else to buy tickets and merchandise for DC movies, too. WB wants to win and more importantly, Robinov wants to win. You don't get into the entertainment industry if you're not highly competitive and insanely driven.

Failed movies don't kill popular properties. They can and sometimes do kill the careers of those who star in them. But DC characters aren't forever doomed to never be box office hits because some movies fail. If that were the case, then someone tell Joel Schumacher and George Clooney that they killed the Batman movie business forever. Last time I checked? They hadn't.

Not every superhero movie has to be WB's summer tentpole film. Why not give us booster gold on a budget with a creator that cares? Or a green arrow movie? Throw some creativity at these properties, not just money like with green lantern.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

WB isn't going to do these movies if they aren't tentpoles and that's because they have profit goals set for them that they have to meet. You meet your projected profits by creating blockbusters with tons of ancillary merchandise, licensing, VOD and, yes, a shrinking DVD market that is still part of the profit picture. You want small and intimate superhero movies? Try telling Disney and Marvel that; it is so not going to happen.

Marvel's newfound success as a box office juggernaut in the past decade has turned summer blockbusters on their head by making superhero movies a permanent part of the movie business model. In a way, Marvel is a victim of its own success. It would be very difficult, if not impossible to make a film like 1998's Blade now. Way too much is riding on superhero movies. Hollywood has seen what future cash cows can be made into movie theater hamburgers and they are comic book superheroes. Now, you'll get your occasional Vertigo pic like V For Vendetta, A History Of Violence or Road To Perdition--but those are prestige projects with cult favorites or literary graphic novels.

If you want to ever see a Green Arrow movie or a Booster Gold movie? Make sure to support the new GA and Booster TV series that are on their way and hope they're big hits. If they are, then they'll probably move up on the list of new products that will eventually get shoved into theaters for the masses.

But from here on out, it's going to usually be big budgets for superhero flicks with tons of merchandise on the side. Love it or hate it, DC and Marvel movies are just like the comic books: it's all about the money.

[Flashpoint]

^The first movie they'd probably put out is a Batman one. Followed by Superman.

Which is already happening: Dark Knight Rises this year, followed by Man Of Steel next year.

Industry buzz on both pics is good. WB knows this and is doing their level best to nurture and support MOS; they are doing everything they can to avoid another SR or GL box office result.

The question is...what comes after that? JL? GL2? Flash? Or just more Batman and Superman?

My money is on either GL2 or Flash as a lead-in to JL.

[Predator jp]

Man of Steel should be a lead-in to JL movie. it's a perfect opportunity.

[Flashpoint]

Man of Steel should be a lead-in to JL movie. it's a perfect opportunity.

I doubt it. WB wants to re-establish the Superman franchise as a hit again first. It's definitely possible, though, and there have been rumors of a possible Marvel/Nick Fury-style end scene after the credits for MOS. But the feeling I have is they want Superman to be able to stand on his own first. If it's a big hit as hoped and anticipated? There's a better chance we'll see an MOS character (possibly Cavill himself) in an after-credits end scene for either GL2 or Flash to lead into Justice League.

Notoriously conservative WB would usually go the safe route and do another GL since it's an established property. Flash has zero track record in theaters and they'd have to spend a fortune doing marketing educating consumers on who and what The Flash is. They won't have to spend as much money to educate non-comix reading moviegoers about who Green Lantern is so it would be cheaper and take less work. But then again, they could say screw it and just take a gamble on Flash.

Still...I highly doubt it. To me, the safest route is probably MOS / GL2 / JL.

Plan B would be either MOS / JL or the longshot choice of MOS / Flash / JL. That 3rd choice, though, is easily the most expensive of the three and also the riskiest.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

No one said he was the draw. But to completely lie about an actor claiming he dosen't do much in a film is uncalled for. You had no idea what was going on in the film, so you should not have posted that. You did it to help your argument which is messed up. Not trying to pick on you or anything but I'm also not going to let you slide on by with remarks like that.

I gave my interpretation of the actor's comments, and we know that Hawkeye isn't the draw of Avengers, and Renner notes that he spent little time with the main actors.

I'm sorry but what does that have to do with anything? Holding on to BDK can only get you so far.

Your comment was that DC fans were delusional in their thinking about what could work for a DC movie.
Do you know what "delusional" means?
And considering that the Dark Knight transcended the way CBM's are made and viewed, I'd say DC fans can hold onto that forever.

That comment was pointed towards those who arguing that a live action movie with the Flash costume being used in it's current state would be a success. Along with a few other silly things in this thread.

So, genius, how do you make a Flash movie without his costume? It's no more ridiculous than what Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor wear.

With all due respect to Heath Ledger but truth be told if he hadn't have died I doubt there would have been as many people going to see that film. We will never know for certain but there is no denying the buzz his death created.

I guess it's a good thing he was brilliant in the film.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

How many of those films was made in house by Marvel oh wait none of them, that's the different between crappy Marvel movie and a crappy DC movie all of DC movies are made by one company and Marvel's not.

Yes, because the average movie goers care which company actually made the movie. All they know is that Ghost Rider 2 sucked; that Spider-man 3 sucked; that Blade 3 sucked; that X-Men 3 sucked. And in front of every one of those suck-ass Marvel movies, you have that big red Marvel brand flashing brightly.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

And yet most of those films made more money then Batman Begins, Superman Returns, Steel, Supergirl, Superman 1-4, Batman, Batman&Robin, Batman Forever, Batman Returns, and whatever other film I missed.

And Britney Spears made more money than U2 at the height of her career. It doesn't mean she produced anything of quality. And when it comes to quality, those movies I mentioned are just as bad as these you've mentioned. They just cost more money and were flashier.

Say what you want about Marvel but at least they have properties that they know will work on screen.

Except they didn't. Daredevil and Elektra didn't work. Ghost Rider didn't work. No Punisher movie has ever worked. The FF didn't work. Marvel trilogies don't seem to work.

While DC is still kicking around Batman and Superman.

And they will continue to do so, as they should.

Heck by now they should be making outstanding Bat films they have had enough time producing "crappy renderings" of him, guess that is the silver lining ....the promise of more Bat films. Go DC and there outstanding diversity. :: rolls eyes::

Oh yeah, let's pretend like WB/DC hasn't made films like Constantine, V for Vendetta, Watchmen, Red, The Road to Perdition, A History of Violence, The Losers, etc.
Why don't you roll those eyes back on the Marvel boards, or are you tired of being whipped around there?

Absolutely right. Part of the reason why I said they were delusional.

There's nothing absolute or right about anything you're saying.

[Judge-Dredd]

I doubt it. WB wants to re-establish the Superman franchise as a hit again first. It's definitely possible, though, and there have been rumors of a possible Marvel/Nick Fury-style end scene after the credits for MOS. But the feeling I have is they want Superman to be able to stand on his own first. If it's a big hit as hoped and anticipated? There's a better chance we'll see an MOS character (possibly Cavill himself) in an after-credits end scene for either GL2 or Flash to lead into Justice League.

Really? I thought Nolan had just enough influence on the film to make sure it would take place in separate universe and nothing like that could ever happen.

While I love Nolan's Bat movies, he's really gotten on my nerves becuase he's seems to have convinced WB(except Robinov of course) that a JL movie should never happen, also if I raise the idea of Batman appearing in a JL movie with non-comic reading people they frown on the idea like it would be blasphemous after Nolan's trilogy

[Flashpoint]

Really? I thought Nolan had just enough influence on the film to make sure it would take place in separate universe and nothing like that could ever happen.

While I love Nolan's Bat movies, he's really gotten on my nerves becuase he's seems to have convinced WB(except Robinov of course) that a JL movie should never happen, also if I raise the idea of Batman appearing in a JL movie with non-comic reading people they frown on the idea like it would be blasphemous after Nolan's trilogy

You hit the nail on the head in more ways than one.

First off...there are rumors of an after-credits end scene on MOS, but nothing more. I doubt it while acknowledging the rumors. WB's immediate concern is re-establishing the Superman franchise at the box office like they've done with Batman.

Second...Nolan was finished with the story he wanted to tell with Batman. He's not looking to become part of a shared universe in terms of directing. However, WB is keeping him involved in an advisory role as to story direction for DC films which I find fascinating in several ways. It's very intriguing that he actually liked David Goyer's idea for Superman and joined in co-writing the screenplay even after his hated-by-fans' statement that his Batman would never, ever be in a shared DC movie universe. That tells me he's not totally opposed to more fantastic superheroes. He probably just didn't want *his* Batman story to get derailed or overcome by shared universe plotlines (for which I don't blame him).

What I find most fascinating is that he has agreed to advise WB on DC movies while shepherding a truly fantastic character like Superman. Given Nolan's obvious credibility as one of the best storytellers in Hollywood, this bodes well for future DC movies.

Now that Nolan is no longer directing superhero movies himself, it frees up WB to pursue its own strategy for a shared movie universe if they want to. And that's the kicker: IF they want to. It sure looks like they do--and that gives me hope, a great deal of hope.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

Most of Marvel's characters are expendable in that you can keep putting out movies and largely no one cares. I think DC characters need a bit more TLC in order to "make them work" on the big screen. DC characters have a heavier weight to bear somewhat than do Marvel characters as to performing to large audiences. Had the GL movie been a Silver Surfer one, it wouldn't have been as lameted because, as you've hinted at, Marvel has already set a precedent of good and bad with their films, so people already know what to expect.

All that has to do with selling the concept/character. Otherwise, why would people waste their time and money?

DC has mega-hits in Supes and Bats, characters that share that patented DC mythological-sized magic that others such as WW, Flash, and Aquaman share. So, you can't just plaster those to the big screen and keep churning out duds like Green Lantern. IMO

Well, that depends on how involved in the suits get with the creative process. Have you seen how good the animated WW movie was? You telling me somebody can't duplicate that live?

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

Really? I thought Nolan had just enough influence on the film to make sure it would take place in separate universe and nothing like that could ever happen.

While I love Nolan's Bat movies, he's really gotten on my nerves becuase he's seems to have convinced WB(except Robinov of course) that a JL movie should never happen, also if I raise the idea of Batman appearing in a JL movie with non-comic reading people they frown on the idea like it would be blasphemous after Nolan's trilogy

Nolan has made it clear that his Batman won't be in the Justice League. But his Batman is far and away different from Burton's Batman. Just because Nolan's trilogy ends, doesn't mean that's the end of Batman on the big screen.

[Flashpoint]

All that has to do with selling the concept/character. Otherwise, why would people waste their time and money?

Well, that depends on how involved in the suits get with the creative process. Have you seen how good the animated WW movie was? You telling me somebody can't duplicate that live?

It depends on if WB can either A) find Wonder Woman her own Christopher Nolan or B) they find someone like Thor's Kenneth Branagh or Iron Man's Jon Favreau who can at least pull off a successful launch that WB and other directors can follow on and exploit.