Bendis pet character that deserves the axe or limbo?

[Khajit]

Jessica Jones has no business being an avenger given the fact that part of her own cannon which Bendis has apparently forgotten despite inventing 99% of the character( with 1% being due to the fact that she was based off a background student in spider-man that merely existed and had no characterization as far as I remember).

She is not cut out for being a superhero psychologically and her entire romance with cage started when he pointed out that she didn't have to be one.She would have been alot more entertaining if she was a reporter still and everyone had to watch what they said to her face since she would have been professionally obligated to report on it if that's what her boss wanted.

Or even use her detective skills like she used to and investigate new leads on stuff for the avengers to bust.

[JudgeMortis]

I like Victoria Hand, but I'd like to see her in the hands of another writer.

as for other characters mentioned

Limbo
Jessica Jones and Luke Cage - Send them on some honey moon cruise in the Bermuda triangle, then bring them back in a few years. Marvel can make a mini of it or something...

Spiderman and Wolverine(someone mentioned them earlier) - Not so much limbo, but just off the avengers team and back to their 'verse. (Wolve in Xmen and Spidy in NY)

Axed
The Hood - The square peg being forced through the round hole is how i've always saw him. Nothing about him makes me take him seriously. Wouldnt mind seeing him wacked by either Punisher or receive 'Scourge of the Underworld' treatment. (with the vintage 'Justice is served' thrown in)

Norman Osborne - let him go back to the spidy universe and have it out with him. That or have Superia kill him. Seriously why is she even following him? Isnt she a misandrist?

[Lady_Alternate]

While I think taking "revenge" on a writer's pet characters after their run is a bit petty, I do think that Luke & Jessica would be better leaving the team and the global-level threats behind and returning to the street in more of an Alias style. That, I could really get behind.

Plus, it would make sense if the TV series ends up getting the green light.

[babybro]

Would you mind explaining what else he did in that issue besides complain about wife and kid and freak out?
Cause im pretty sure i am not reading a book that's missing some pages.

Oh you didn't mention that before, his primary side plot is the reaction
of his family being missing, but it's much more than the simple 3 sentences that you stated that happen. It's an actual plot line, no different than the plotline
of victoria hand being caught as a triple agent.

Sales illustrates that if you are not part of one of the major franchises your book is going to fail, it has nothing to do the race of the character.
Wait, i dont follow the Ultimate books.... have sales dipped with the new black Spider-man? Can i get a link on this?

Hahaha, you can believe that garbage if you wish, but all the major publishers have said otherwise.

Tom Breevort

2) One statement you made that ignited the message boards was that black leads and female leads do not sell well. Mark Waid, your partner in crime defended this statement and elaborated on it. I for one have to agree with you, as it seems that many creators, retailers, and publishers believe the same thing. I was wondering if you could elaborate as to why that is? And what do you believe are possible avenues to fixed it.

I don't know that there's any simple way to fix this; it's been a problem since the days when the industry began, and has its parallels in other avenues of popular culture. In essence, black readers and female readers (as well as readers of any other particular type you might want to mention) are more likely to be brought into the fold to follow the adventures of a white male lead than the mass audience is to be convinced to follow a black or a female lead. There's a cultural or identification disconnect that happens, and which narrows the audience spectrum with characters of these types. I think the only thing to be done about it would be to continue to try to create and develop characters with greater depth and interest, and hope that this is enough to attract a wider and more diverse audience, and increase their popularity to the point where they can support a series of their own.

Mark Waid

"Tom's syntax following that is a little blunt...man, I wish it were wrong, but it's not. Every comics publisher ever, including BOOM!, can tell you maddening tales of retailers who, even now, in the 21st century, are hesitant to order books with non-white, non-American leads because their community won't support them. It's absurd, it's crazy-making, I don't know what it's going to take to change that other than time...but like it or not, it is an unfortunate truth of the time in which we live.”

So yes, race definitely does have to do with it. There is a reason why almost every single book on DC side that has a minority lead are either cancelled or near cancellation levels.
And a reason why all minority lead books here in marvel are also cancelled.

No the criticism is the same, black males are depicted badly so he might as well not have them in his movies.
I didnt say Bendis depicts black dudes bad so he should stop writing.
You jumped to some other thing not being discussed.
And Bendis, much like Tyler Perry, seeing black males acting a certain is IS rather telling.

Did I say you did? Please point out where I stated you said bendis should stop writing. I never made that comment. My "thing" being discussed
is this ridiculous idea that people proposed to remove luke cage from the avengers because he's "bendis pet" ergo removing the last prominent
black male in comics. But since white privilege is in full effect and people can't see the ramifications this may have on the minority front, folks just
don't seem to notice.

[earl]

I think you Bendis haters are still ticked he blew up Alpha Flight. I think his run on Avengers has ebbed and flowed with some parts that were better than others, but I think the bile here is kind of aimed at one of the things he did that was kind of cool - he used some new characters.

Jessica Jones- Give the guy a break, he invented a new character that actually has a personality. It happens so few times, it's probably one of the better things he did.
Jessica Drew- the character's origin and background is so wacky and built into the Marvel U., she was good to use in his run.
Victoria Hand- supporting character & still don't know which side of the fence she is really playing at this point although she was working for Norm.
Norman Osborn- Really the re-characterization is by Ellis and Bendis just ran with it. I think the Dark Avengers storyline was really outside the opening arcs the best thing he did tied to the Avengers. Don't know how it will all tie up...wait and see.
Daisy Johnson: Quake- not really his character until now, although he did start on Secret Warriors with Hickman. Still...it's a new character. That should be a good thing.
Maria Hill- more of a supporting character, but really her characterization is as much tied to the Iron Man comics to where she has been in the Avengers.
The Hood- I liked the original mini-series, but there really was undersold the "how" he tied the gangs together and made his name. Not a bad idea, especially in using a new character again and moving it on, but perhaps not as fully realized as it could have been.
Luke Cage -I don't see why how Cage was used upsets people. He did some cool stuff with the character and made him relevant. I just hope that people like Jeff Parker and others keep using him and adding onto what Bendis did. I think he did some cool stuff with this character. I think Marvel missed the boat not doing a real Power Man and Iron Fist with the real guys coming off the first Iron Fist series...but hey that's how it goes, it could happen still.

[Sighphi]

Oh you didn't mention that before, his primary side plot is the reaction
of his family being missing, but it's much more than the simple 3 sentences that you stated that happen. It's an actual plot line, no different than the plotline
of victoria hand being caught as a triple agent.

I didnt mentioned what before?
This whole conversation has been about the Luke Cage and his repeat game.
All that happened in the book was Cage cry about his wife and kid and bug out.
This is what i have said from the start and nothing has changed.

Hahaha, you can believe that garbage if you wish, but all the major publishers have said otherwise.

Tom Breevort



Mark Waid



So yes, race definitely does have to do with it. There is a reason why almost every single book on DC side that has a minority lead are either cancelled or near cancellation levels.
And a reason why all minority lead books here in marvel are also cancelled.

If you want to base the whole comic book industry on a stupid statement go ahead.
But why dont you go on and check Ultimate Spider-man which has a black lead with a black family and has the backing of a big franchise and then we can get back on this.

You know what, here.

Ultimate Spider-man
09/11 #1 - 95,483 (+143.6%)
09/11 #2 - 58,672 ( -38.6%)
10/11 #3 - 52,521 ( -10.5%)
11/11 #4 - 51,558 ( -1.8%)
12/11 #5 - 48,308 ( -6.3%)
01/12 #6 - 49,840 ( +3.2%)

Compare it to NA
09/11 #16 - 57,959 ( +3.4%)
09/11 #.1 - 51,506 (-11.1%)
10/11 #17 - 55,732 ( +8.2%)
11/11 #18 - 54,454 ( -2.3%)
12/11 #19 - 52,915 ( -2.8%)
01/12 #20 - 52,910 ( -0.0%)

Avengers
08/11 #16 - 60,295 ( -3.7%)
09/11 #17 - 61,492 ( +2.0%)
10/11 #18 - 58,897 ( -4.2%)
11/11 #19 - 56,620 ( -3.9%)
12/11 #20 - 57,145 ( +0.9%)
01/12 #21 - 54,803 ( -4.1%)

Amazing Spider-man
11/11 #673 - 57,159 ( -1.2%)
11/11 #674 - 57,723 ( +1.0%)
12/11 #675 - 54,652 ( -5.3%)
12/11 #676 - 54,001 ( -1.2%)
01/12 #677 - 57,186 ( +5.9%)
01/12 #678 - 54,252 ( -5.1%)

Now look at that..... Ultimate Spider-man is doing just as good as some of the top books at Marvel.
Hell, it's beating a lot of comics with white leads.
Imagine that.

Did I say you did? Please point out where I stated you said bendis should stop writing. I never made that comment.

That is replying to your comparison which incorrect

My "thing" being discussed
is this ridiculous idea that people proposed to remove luke cage from the avengers because he's "bendis pet" ergo removing the last prominent
black male in comics. But since white privilege is in full effect and people can't see the ramifications this may have on the minority front, folks just
don't seem to notice.

I get what you are saying but the counter to that by some folks is that they dont like the depiction and they rather have no depiction than a bad depiction. Some people dont see this depiction as anything prominent, some people just see him as taking a space for no reason.

[Telos]

Falcon and Black Panther >>>>>>>>> Luke Cage

Falcon was an important member of the team pre-Bendis. He played a very large role in Geoff Johns' run, only for Bendis to sideline him in Disassembled. He was still pretty big in Brubaker's Captain America.

I'd argue that Black Panther is a far more prominent black character than Luke Cage as well. He's had more consistent success in regards to solo titles, and, unlike Cage, has a history with the Avengers. Black Panther's character is full of intrigue and intelligence. Bendis's version of Luke Cage, on the other hand, alternates between a generic, streetwise "gangsta" and a generic, whiny parent.

Both of them are more interesting and better written than Luke Cage ever was in New Avengers. Cage needs some serious character rehabilitation, away from the Avengers titles. Keep him in Thunderbolts. Bring the real black Avengers back.

[Hero Girl]

Falcon and Black Panther >>>>>>>>> Luke Cage

Falcon was an important member of the team pre-Bendis. He played a very large role in Geoff Johns' run, only for Bendis to sideline him in Disassembled. He was still pretty big in Brubaker's Captain America.

I'd argue that Black Panther is a far more prominent black character than Luke Cage as well. He's had more consistent success in regards to solo titles, and, unlike Cage, has a history with the Avengers. Black Panther's character is full of intrigue and intelligence. Bendis's version of Luke Cage, on the other hand, alternates between a generic, streetwise "gangsta" and a generic, whiny parent.

Both of them are more interesting and better written than Luke Cage ever was in New Avengers. Cage needs some serious character rehabilitation, away from the Avengers titles. Keep him in Thunderbolts. Bring the real black Avengers back.

Falcon wasn't a big member of the team before 2002 or so.

Prior to that, he had a 1 year run on the team where all he talked about was how he was placed on the team for tokenism

[Hero of Shadows]

Well, thanks for trying to explain it to me, but I think your "simple terms" are a little too simplistic, and almost entirely without any evidence to support them.
Let's start with : 2 are drawn with short hair so their character must be "tomboyish".
Really? In 2012? When has Bendis shown us those characters doing or saying anything that might be described as "tomboyish"?
Oh, they've picked up guns?
But, all 3 are trained SHIELD agents, so handling weapons is part of that training and that job, not a character trait. Hand also uses guns.
The "tomboys" wear SHIELD jumpsuits all the time, but Hand wears dresses. And has longer hair.
So they are "tomboys" and Hand is "girly".
I guess Sharon Carter is a "tomboy" too. She wears a jumpsuit and uses guns. But wait, she has long girly hair! I'm getting mixed signals!
Nick Fury is the ultimate "tomboy". Jumpsuit: check. Guns: check. Short hair: check.
The old expression "tomboy" used to pertain to a woman who wore masculine style clothing, had an interest in watching or playing masculine sports, and/or an interest in science or technology.
Now let's leave aside the fact that such hoary old gender stereotyping really has no place in the 21st century, can any of those things be said to be true of Bendis' depictions of Hill and Johnson?
Lets take the ubiquitous jumpsuits they favour.
1. Both are SHIELD agents and that is standard issue SHIELD uniform. So not a "tomboys" choice of personal expression, it's required by their job. And Hand was in SHIELD too, so joining SHIELD is not a "tomboy" indicator, or Hand would be on your list as well.
2. Because the jumpsuit is standard issue it is, by definition "unisex": intended for use by both sexes. It is not a culturally defined traditional item of clothing for men but not for women. Because the skintight rubber/leather/latex/whateverthehellitis jumpsuit has never been worn by men, ever. If anything, in our culture the skintight jumpsuit is a very feminine piece of clothing. So again, a "fail" on the "tomboy test".

So, sorry but "has short hair, let's extrapolate that they are tomboys" is not characterization on the part of the writer, but rather is you projecting non-existent characteristics onto two ciphers who are completely devoid of any defining character traits.

Lets move on to your good/neutral/evil divide.
Given that Bendis never showed us Hand or Johnson during Civil War/SHRA, your assertion about their views on it are completely made up, by you.
For all we know, both could have been entirely for or against it. But that's the point. We don't know.
So I'm going to have to disallow your made up distinction on the grounds that, on the outside of your head, none of that actually happened.
Similarly, though it's clear that Hill opposed Osbourne and Hand worked for him, the characterizations of them as "neutral" and "evil" are a stretch, at best. You may recall Loki, god of Eeeevil also both opposed and worked with Osbourne. Is he "neutral" or "evil"? I forget which.
And where was "good" Daisy Johnson during Dark Reign?
Strange that "good" Daisy Johnson did little or nothing to oppose "evil" Hand and Osbourne, isn't it? I suppose a year and a half wasn't enough time to show her being "good" in opposition to "evil" Hand.
Wait, I'm confused. "neutral" Hill acted against "evil" Osbourne, but "good" Johnson didn't oppose him? Weird.

Now we come to the present: "evil" Hand works for Cap against Osbourne, so is "evil being redeemed".
which is completely different from "neutral" Hill who works for Cap against Osbourne. As ...err "neutral being redeemed"?
And also different from "good" Johnson who works for Cap against Osbourne. As "good being redeemed" one can only assume.

What have any of them said or done, in a comic written by Bendis, that differentiates them into the arbitrary moral categories you assign? Because I've not noticed that.
Again, you've made a distinction between them, but not cited any actual evidence in any comic that really backs it up.

And lastly, your assertion that they are "a cool insight,.. on the general state and opinions of non super America" might appear to actually have a little merit.
Until we remember that Daisy Johnson has super powers, and the other two have spent their adult lives working for the world's premier super-spy organization.
So none of them represent the man/woman/tomboy on the street or reflect their views or experiences of the "super" part of the MU.
In fact, as super-powered Avenger, Avengers liaison to SHIELD, and former heads of SHIELD, it would be hard to find people less likely to be bellweather indicators of the non-super marvel universe.


Still, I thank you for replying, and apologize for somewhat unfairly taking your admirably brief points apart in a much longer reply.
You did a better job in one paragraph of telling me something about how the three of them might be distinguished from one another than Bendis has done in 8 years.
Sadly, none of your observations or ideas have actually occurred in any Bendis penned comic, but if it helps any, I'd rather you wrote the Avengers than him.
You at least grasp the concept of character as being different traits, views, actions and expressions of opinion.
Bendis simply does not.

While she does have the standard superhero body type, Hill is in universe supposed to look more tomboyish, the only line that comes to mind is Bullseye asking Norman "who was that girlish looking boy" after Hill hands in her resignation and everybody said Johnson looks like Hill so there you go.

And of course Hand is the only one who seeks redemption, it's only in her description I mention it.

[Mlcboarder]

Daisy Johnson: Quake- not really his character until now, although he did start on Secret Warriors with Hickman. Still...it's a new character. That should be a good thing.

Quake actually is a Bendis-created character. He created her in Secret War, then passed her off to Hickman on Secret Warriors. Its actually pretty cool that he started her, let her get built up in SW, and then come full circle with her joining Avengers at the end of his run.

[babybro]

I didnt mentioned what before?
This whole conversation has been about the Luke Cage and his repeat game.
All that happened in the book was Cage cry about his wife and kid and bug out.
This is what i have said from the start and nothing has changed.

Disagree, the original conversation we had was discussing the luke cage family antics, but essentially I was done with
that conversation because I knew first hand we would just view the matter of major role of his family differently.
But than you said this.

Have you read the latest New Avengers issue?
Cause the only thing Cage does is say, "Where my wife and kid?" then, " I'm going to beat you up, sucka!" Two times. \
But at least he is in the comic book, right?

That's where the simplification came from, because you stated the only he does is this which frankly isn't true.

If you want to base the whole comic book industry on a stupid statement go ahead.
But why dont you go on and check Ultimate Spider-man which has a black lead with a black family and has the backing of a big franchise and then we can get back on this.

You know what, here.

Ultimate Spider-man
09/11 #1 - 95,483 (+143.6%)
09/11 #2 - 58,672 ( -38.6%)
10/11 #3 - 52,521 ( -10.5%)
11/11 #4 - 51,558 ( -1.8%)
12/11 #5 - 48,308 ( -6.3%)
01/12 #6 - 49,840 ( +3.2%)

Compare it to NA
09/11 #16 - 57,959 ( +3.4%)
09/11 #.1 - 51,506 (-11.1%)
10/11 #17 - 55,732 ( +8.2%)
11/11 #18 - 54,454 ( -2.3%)
12/11 #19 - 52,915 ( -2.8%)
01/12 #20 - 52,910 ( -0.0%)

Avengers
08/11 #16 - 60,295 ( -3.7%)
09/11 #17 - 61,492 ( +2.0%)
10/11 #18 - 58,897 ( -4.2%)
11/11 #19 - 56,620 ( -3.9%)
12/11 #20 - 57,145 ( +0.9%)
01/12 #21 - 54,803 ( -4.1%)

Amazing Spider-man
11/11 #673 - 57,159 ( -1.2%)
11/11 #674 - 57,723 ( +1.0%)
12/11 #675 - 54,652 ( -5.3%)
12/11 #676 - 54,001 ( -1.2%)
01/12 #677 - 57,186 ( +5.9%)
01/12 #678 - 54,252 ( -5.1%)

Now look at that..... Ultimate Spider-man is doing just as good as some of the top books at Marvel.
Hell, it's beating a lot of comics with white leads.
Imagine that.

A stupid statement? Really? These are two of the top individuals of their respective company, Tom Breevort as we all know who he is, and Mark Waid as head honcho
of Boom Studios. But I guess the sales analyst that works for them that provides this information are stupid, let alone the fact that one of these individuals is a big wig
of one of the two biggest companies in the industry. No, these are professionals in the field whose primary job is the access the market and plan accordingly. Hell, Mark
Waid admitted himself troubles that he had.

Oh, but it gets worse.

Last year, Rich Johnston wrote about how BRING THE THUNDER was Dynamites second-lowest-ordered book ever, and suggested that it might be because the book featured an African-American lead:

The second lowest ordered book of all time from Dynamite is coming out this week. Bring The Thunder #1, created and co-written by Alex Ross, written by Jai Nitz and illustrated by Wilson Tortosa.

[snip] Alex Ross creates a number of covers for the publisher and, while it’s fair to say that Ross may not be as prominent as he was in the days of Marvels and Kingdom Come, his covers always lift sales for books, and it’s arguable that the first issue of a new superhero comic created by the man should sell better than, well, Queen Sonja #37. Or Deepak Chopra’s Buddha #3. Or Pat Lee’s Widow Warriors #4.

So there is uncomfortable reality that this book does feature a lead African American character, and promoted as such. And that such reduced preorders may be as a result that some believe that such books automatically sell lower.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/08/03...hite-men-sell/

and I can go on and on and on on different publishers, writers, artists all say the same thing. These are professional in the fields TELLING you their experiences with dealing
trying to sell minority books. Not some comic book fan on the internet.

That is replying to your comparison which incorrect

Again, it's not incorrect. For one, if you look at the quote, no where did it state that YOU thought luke cage should be removed. I said people, you
including yourself in with people is an incorrect assumption on your part because you presume I was talking about you in that statement, when I wasn't.
You only need to look through the thread to see who the people are who says luke cage should be gone.

I get what you are saying but the counter to that by some folks is that they dont like the depiction and they rather have no depiction than a bad depiction. Some people dont see this depiction as anything prominent, some people just see him as taking a space for no reason.

Of course, but what people are not seeing is by removing said space, you are also removing the last black prominent male in the mu in the process, which has been my point the entire time.

[earl]

I forgot about Quake being in Secret War.


I think there was quite a bit that didn't come off great in Bendis run, especially Secret Invasion, which the actual mini-series was pretty weak, but the use of the new characters and actually creating some new characters is really one of the things that he did well.

[XPac]

Falcon and Black Panther >>>>>>>>> Luke Cage

Falcon was an important member of the team pre-Bendis. He played a very large role in Geoff Johns' run, only for Bendis to sideline him in Disassembled. He was still pretty big in Brubaker's Captain America.

I'd argue that Black Panther is a far more prominent black character than Luke Cage as well. He's had more consistent success in regards to solo titles, and, unlike Cage, has a history with the Avengers. Black Panther's character is full of intrigue and intelligence. Bendis's version of Luke Cage, on the other hand, alternates between a generic, streetwise "gangsta" and a generic, whiny parent.

Both of them are more interesting and better written than Luke Cage ever was in New Avengers. Cage needs some serious character rehabilitation, away from the Avengers titles. Keep him in Thunderbolts. Bring the real black Avengers back.

I think you can definately make the arguement about Black Panther... but honestly I think Falcon is an Avenger purely because they needed a black guy (first time around at least) and because he's Caps side kick.

Really, I don't think the guy even wants to be an Avenger. If he did, he'd be one. Being arguably Steve's best friend frankly means he's got a spot anytime he wants... but I think Falcon actually prefers being a more street level guy. I think he's he's just there when Steve asks him to lend a hand.

And as far as Bendis sidelining him... Falcon wasn't really used before or after Geoff's run. When Bendis got ahold of the team, I think Falcon was already sidelined anyways. Truthfully it's more the norm NOT to have Falcon on the team. I'm not trying to diss Falcon or anything, but he doesn't have anymore right at calling himself a "real" black Avenger than Cage.

[XPac]

Jessica Jones has no business being an avenger given the fact that part of her own cannon which Bendis has apparently forgotten despite inventing 99% of the character( with 1% being due to the fact that she was based off a background student in spider-man that merely existed and had no characterization as far as I remember).

She is not cut out for being a superhero psychologically and her entire romance with cage started when he pointed out that she didn't have to be one.She would have been alot more entertaining if she was a reporter still and everyone had to watch what they said to her face since she would have been professionally obligated to report on it if that's what her boss wanted.

Or even use her detective skills like she used to and investigate new leads on stuff for the avengers to bust.

I think the current books are frankly exploring the idea of whether or not Jessica belongs on the Avengers. If you actually read the stories, it's something Bendis is tackling rather than ignoring.

[West]

but honestly I think Falcon is an Avenger purely because they needed a black guy (first time around at least) and because he's Caps side kick.

Correction he was his partner

a : one associated with another especially in an action

sidekick is a close companion who is generally regarded as subordinate to the one he accompanies

He's gone aganst Cap in some occasions. Like in his miniseries ehen the Legion kiddnaped Not-Ragen

Really, I don't think the guy even wants to be an Avenger. If he did, he'd be one. Being arguably Steve's best friend frankly means he's got a spot anytime he wants... but I think Falcon actually prefers being a more street level guy. I think he's he's just there when Steve asks him to lend a hand.

He had no issue identifying himself as one. He's with them in Legacy as well.

And as far as Bendis sidelining him... Falcon wasn't really used before or after Geoff's run. When Bendis got ahold of the team, I think Falcon was already sidelined anyways. Truthfully it's more the norm NOT to have Falcon on the team. I'm not trying to diss Falcon or anything, but he doesn't have anymore right at calling himself a "real" black Avenger than Cage.

Everybody but Bendis is using him, gage, brubaker. Even Loeb. And I don't believe in this real Avengers nonsense but he's been Cap's partner for years. Cap is assosiated with the Avengers as well. He's proven himself enough. Cage simply needs a good writer to prove the haters wrong as Monty stated