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  1. #196
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    But whatever,they do have a movie coming out in May and another book is a lead-in to the movie (which is kinda cool to be honest..why not make it a multi-media experience!) it would seem stupid to not have a heavier than the normal-heavy Avengers presence all over the shelves.
    I agree with you on the counting. Personally I wouldn't count Black Widow.

    But the over-saturation isn't simply because of the movie. Take away the 2 black widow & the 5 Hulk vs. Avengers and you're left with the same 10 Avengers titles Marvel sells every month.

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    Across the aisle we have 8 titles with BAT on the cover.. plus another 5 that are direct spin offs. Maybe DC should be poo-pood for trying to sell their top product too! (Im buying 9 of them!)
    And though the regular 10 titles is comparable to the Bat-line, you'd agree that 17 vs. 8 isn't really a comparison, right?

  2. #197
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    And though the regular 10 titles is comparable to the Bat-line, you'd agree that 17 vs. 8 isn't really a comparison, right?
    Try 14-18.

    You can't not count all his little clones that are based and pretty much are the same thing as Bruce Wayne/ Batman.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamorsTrident View Post
    Comics have been on a decline for awhile now and there are several other factors that weigh in on those numbers.
    Comics were in a decline until DC's successful reboot brought readers back since JL#1 debuted.

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html

  4. #199
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamorsTrident View Post
    Try 14-18.

    You can't not count all his little clones that are based and pretty much are the same thing as Bruce Wayne/ Batman.
    That's fine dude, I was using fedup's numbers.
    Last edited by Ari Gold; 02-20-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  5. #200
    Ex-Cheeks Reptisaurus!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ronin View Post
    Yes, this is a Marvel problem, and only a Marvel problem.
    To point out that you are absolutely right. Good job! Congratulations! This is a Marvel problem and only a Marvel problem. Image, ferinstance, is damn close to making three times as much money in bookstores as Marvel. Marvel has continually won the largest share of the direct market, and is doing very, very well in licensing. (See below.) But... compare
    The largest publisher of Western comics is DC Comics. In 2011 they placed a strong 107 titles in the Top 750, for 661k units, and a hair over $13m in retail dollars.
    Vs.

    The #8 Western publisher within the Top 750 is Marvel Comics, which places 27 titles for about 128k copies and $3.3m sold.
    Note that profit-wise, DC beats Marvel by, what, Four Hundred Percent. And the number one and number two big sellers aren't superheroes

    Marvel's largest success in the bookstores this year isn't anything featuring any of their characters -- it is "Castle: Deadly Storm," a meta-tie-in to a mildly-rated television show. That book sells 9634 copies to BookScan reporters.
    Side -note: Ooooo-kay. I've never heard of the TV show, or the comic.

    Marvel's #2 best-seller is the latest from Stephen King's "Dark Tower" tie-ins, "The Journey Begins," with 8619 copies sold. This is about half of what last-year's best-selling "Dark Tower" book, "The Fall of Gilead," sold. Four "DT" books placed in the Top 750, and they are, for Marvel, #4, #7, and #11. Down to 4482 there at the end.
    Basically - Marvel hasn't figured out how to build a back-list. (Exception: Mark Millar's work, especially CIVIL WAR.* Yeah, I know. ) DC, I hypothesize, made inroads with Vertigo and Vertigo-ish titles that could be sold on the strength of an author's name, and built enough of a brand that they can get SOME people to buy their supehero stuff. But "Neil Gaiman"' still sells more than "Batman."

    What the bookstore audience seems to want is self-contained works driven by a single major creator, and this isn't what Marvel focuses on - CRIMINAL sells pretty well by Marvel bookstore standards, but even it sells better in the single issue direct market. (And Criminal isn't a top 100 direct market book last I checked. Because direct market customers HATE stuff that's good. Hate it to hell.)

    I stand by my original point. Marvel tries with every movie. They fail, it's cute. Wuzzy. Wuzzy. Wuzzy.

    * Source. I read it somewhere. More than once. And also I pay attention to the Amazon graphic novel best-sellers. So my evidence here is shaky at best.


    Couple notes:

    (A) The list only tabulates the top 750 titles. Hibbs says that books charting in the 800s still sold more than 2,000 copies, which isn't nothin'.

    (B) I'm seeing some questionable math...

    The best-selling book with "Thor" in the title ("Thor" having grossed $449m in world-wide box office, you understand) is actually the $125 Walt Simonson Omnibus (only 4020 copies, but that cover price makes it the #10 dollar book for the entire year with a gross retail of just over half-a-million dollars.
    Gross retail. Hrm. I'm no economist, but I'm betting that (I) Amazon sold this for considerably less than 125 dollars. (II) About 4018 of those orders were through Amazon at this heavily discounted price. My guess as to the net effect: Manga is actually even further ahead than is indicated, profit-wise, because Manga is cheaper and isn't waywayway discounted by online retailers.

    (C) The direct market is considerably larger in units sold and profit generated than the bookstore market. (For comics.) Hibb's puts the total bookstore dollar amount at $175,634,490.77*, and the Comics Chronicles says

    OVERALL North American Dollar Sales for Diamond's Comics, Trade Paperbacks, and Magazines for 2011:
    around $417 million
    (down less than 1% year-over-year)
    **

    Marvel's single-percentage Direct Market dominance would still make this a close race for overall largest publisher in direct market and bookstores combined - And I'm sure as hell not gonna do the math. Let's just say it's close, overall, sequential-art-profit-wise.

    * Also: Keep reading. This isn't just a Marvel and DC race.

    ** I didn't double-check any of the data and can't vouch for the reliability of the site. But I keep track of this stuff*** and, eh, seems about right to me.***

    *** Don't tell anyone, but I'm kind of a nerd.

    (D) Barnes and Noble pulled a LOT of DC product from their shelves, which might hurt DC next year. (They'll still be ahead of Marvel JUST on Amazon sales, though.)

    (E) Bookscan is a very, very different world than the direct market.
    The #1 item this year is exactly the same as it was last year: Rachel Renee Russell's " Dork Diaries"
    I don't know what this is, either. Younger folks? People with kids? Little help?

    (F) While Manga isn't selling what it used to, Manga publisher Viz (Naruto, One Piece) is still by far the dominant direct market comics publisher. Hibbs puts their profits at "$32,766,960" which is about 250% of the money DC pulled in. DC are beating Marvel, but they're not the big fish in this pond.

    (G) There are... issues with the direct market numbers. I'm not even gonna try to sumarize 'cause we don't have all night, and it doesn't really affect all y'all Marvel comics fans. But the numbers here don't count lots of smaller independent bookstores, and that prejudices 'em against less-mainstream publishers, like Fantagraphics and Drawn and Quarterly. Some indy-type comics still sell by the shit ton - - Maus and Persepolis*, ferinstance, outsold any single Graphic Novel published by Marvel or DC - but they're released by major BOOK publishers, not primarily comic guys. And, speaking of...

    I've done the best I can to try and root out any items "of significance" that should be on the chart that I'm given -- for example, I have to have "The Complete Persepolis" and "Maus" manually pulled for me because they are actually classified as (I believe) "Memoir" rather than comics. Because this relies on me thinking of things to get them on to the list -- each item apparently only has one classification -- there's almost certainly comics material missing that I didn't catch.
    * I've read it three times, and I still have to look up how to spell Persepolis.

    (H) I'm not really talking about direct market Graphic Novels sales here, although those are weighed in with Direct Market numbers above. I'm sure CRIMINAL does pretty well in direct market trades.* and **

    * I've been trade-waiting myself, but I think the single issues have cool essays in the back. I'm fairly sure I made the wrong decision here.

    ** And I'm not absolutely saying that trade waiters have better taste. But we're less concerned with the hawt new fad of the moment. And more prone to measured, rational buying decisions, rather than Impulse buys. And better in bed.

    (I) For what it's worth, I'd bet a lot of money that Marvel kills DC in outside media licensing - T-shirts, keychains and the like.* And Marvel obviously dominates in movies. But DC has found a way to use movies to sell comics. At least when they have a hit movie. Which is rarely.

    * My source on this is "I drove a school bus for a while. But I saw WAY more Spider-Man lunchboxes than Batman lunchboxes.**

    ** Fun gig. I drove the short bus, until college got in the way. I'd be all "HERE COMES A WATERFALL" and the kids would be all "SPLASH!" Plus I could talk about superheroes all day to an interested audience, which is rarely the case amongst my peers.

    (J) Okay, this is beyond my powers of tabulation and/or caring, but I'd guess that Marvel does pretty well on the Children's/Coloring Book side-of-things. I saw a BUNCH of Superhero Squad books in K-Mart.*

    * Again, my evidence here is pretty shaky.
    Last edited by Reptisaurus!; 02-20-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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  6. #201
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Except marvel is the comic book company that sells more comics,have a better variety of popular super heroes,the most popular movies and was bought by Disney recently.

    So it looks like there is more chances of marvel buying DC that the other way around actually.
    Marvel's comics are not "better" than DC's at all. How can you have a "variety" if every other book is a clone of another book? That's variety??
    How many X-books are there compared to Avengers titles and throw in the growing number of Spidey books? Over at DC, the fans are griping about a mere FOUR Batman books!

    Marvel is owned by Disney.

    DC is owned by Time-Warner--no contest.
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

  7. #202
    Senior Member The_Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    Marvel's comics are not "better" than DC's at all. How can you have a "variety" if every other book is a clone of another book? That's variety??
    How many X-books are there compared to Avengers titles and throw in the growing number of Spidey books? Over at DC, the fans are griping about a mere FOUR Batman books!

    Marvel is owned by Disney.

    DC is owned by Time-Warner--no contest.
    I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
    Last edited by The_Ronin; 02-20-2012 at 09:48 PM.

  8. #203
    Senior Member The_Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin9977 View Post
    Comics were in a decline until DC's successful reboot brought readers back since JL#1 debuted.

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html
    Wait... You are proclaiming the industry is saved thanks to the DC reboot? That it's years or decline have been reversed for years to come? or just pointing out that its been a good few months?

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ronin View Post
    Wait... You are proclaiming the industry is saved thanks to the DC reboot? or just pointing out that its been a good few months?
    The latter.

  10. #205
    Senior Member The_Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin9977 View Post
    The latter.
    Ah, very well then disregard my post.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    I agree with you on the counting. Personally I wouldn't count Black Widow.

    But the over-saturation isn't simply because of the movie. Take away the 2 black widow & the 5 Hulk vs. Avengers and you're left with the same 10 Avengers titles Marvel sells every month.



    And though the regular 10 titles is comparable to the Bat-line, you'd agree that 17 vs. 8 isn't really a comparison, right?
    I cant think of 10 monthly Avengers books,

    Avengers
    New Avengers
    Secret Avengers
    Avengers Academy
    Avengers Assemble (coming)

    what am i missing?

    And yes, 17 vs 8 is quite unbalanced from a book to book comparison.. but the Avengers books follow the exploits of like 14-20 different heroes, not even counting the Academy kids, while Batman holds down 5 monthly books on his own (robin co-stars in 1).

    I think Bats kills the Avengers in pure page for page face time! haha

    Fun to analyze , but means zero. We could look at it from 50 different angles and come up with 57 fun takes on the same subject.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    Marvel is owned by Disney.

    DC is owned by Time-Warner--no contest.
    Disney has an annual revenue of @ 40,000,000,000
    Warner has an annual revenue of @ 13,000,000,000
    I have an annual revenue of about ...eh.. nevermind.

    no contest.


  13. #208
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    I cant think of 10 monthly Avengers books,

    Avengers
    New Avengers
    Secret Avengers
    Avengers Academy
    Avengers Assemble (coming)

    what am i missing?
    Well, what Marvel has done is contracted the line and double-shipped the titles instead of spreading it out over different books. 2 valid approaches, however it allows DC the opportunity to promote diversity (not just in gender/race but in genre as well). So the 10 Batman books include titles like Batwoman & Batgirl (currently both Top 25 books), Catwoman, Birds of Prey and Batwing.

    Marvel will sprinkle in the Avengers mini-series (Avengers:Solo) or spin-off titles to expand the franchise.

    Also, I don't think the criticism would be as valid if it was just an issue of Avengers, the main complaint is that Marvel has contracted their entire universe to just 3 franchises (Avengers, X-Men and Spider-Man), and although their market supports that kind of contraction, it has led to a severe loss in overall customers which they've made up by raising the prices on even more books and double-shipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    And yes, 17 vs 8 is quite unbalanced from a book to book comparison.. but the Avengers books follow the exploits of like 14-20 different heroes, not even counting the Academy kids, while Batman holds down 5 monthly books on his own (robin co-stars in 1).
    True, in that regard then Batman as a solo character may be more similar to Spider-Man, with Spider-Man spinoffs like Scarlet Spider & Venom taking the place of Bat-spinoffs like Nightwing & Catwoman, etc.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Well, what Marvel has done is contracted the line and double-shipped the titles instead of spreading it out over different books. 2 valid approaches, however it allows DC the opportunity to promote diversity (not just in gender/race but in genre as well). So the 10 Batman books include titles like Batwoman & Batgirl (currently both Top 25 books), Catwoman, Birds of Prey and Batwing.

    Marvel will sprinkle in the Avengers mini-series (Avengers:Solo) or spin-off titles to expand the franchise.

    Also, I don't think the criticism would be as valid if it was just an issue of Avengers, the main complaint is that Marvel has contracted their entire universe to just 3 franchises (Avengers, X-Men and Spider-Man), and although their market supports that kind of contraction, it has led to a severe loss in overall customers which they've made up by raising the prices on even more books and double-shipping.



    True, in that regard then Batman as a solo character may be more similar to Spider-Man, with Spider-Man spinoffs like Scarlet Spider & Venom taking the place of Bat-spinoffs like Nightwing & Catwoman, etc.
    Yeah DC does have the diversity.. but that diversity does nothing for me.. their "diverse" books arent worth buying to me and the sales show they dont mean much to a lot of people. (barring the New52 factor) their "diverse" titles had 2 that cracked the 20k sales mark before the relaunch (batgirl and supergirl at @ 23k)

    DC isnt immune to pushing their top characters.. (why would any company not) look at the top 10 DC books in January;

    7 out of 10 are either Batman(4) or Superman (2) and a joint effort JLA. Throw in Flash, GL, and Aquaman ..ALL in JLA and you can see that pattern.

    Marvel takes 8 out of the next 10 spots with a smattering of Avengers, Xmen and Spiderman books. mixed in are WonderWoman( again JLA) and Teen Titans (Teenaged version of JLA)

    DCs diversity isnt exactly setting the world on fire.

  15. #210

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    It's true, the modern comics market is heavily geared towards superheroes.

    But some things to consider might be that some of those diverse titles might be a gateway for people to get into comics. They might sell more as TPBs, they might do better in overseas markets, they might become perrennial, evergreen sellers rather than the short term of the superhero books, they might diversify your customer base, and some of these no iterations might be ripe for development into film or TV or cartoon, all of which are more lucrative than comics.

    Back in the day, DC publishing Warlord is what saved it when superhero comics sort of collapsed.

    You never know what is going to catch on, or how it is going to catch on. The Jonah Hex stuff sold enough in trade and overseas to make it happen for them.

    And as a reader who is reading a bunch of this stuff, it's very satisfying for me.

    If you dont' like any of the 'diverse' books, that's cool, I get that. It's certainly not synonymous with QUALITY. But I'm enjoying a lot of them, and the diversity in GENRE is a HUGE part of my enjoyment of the current crop of DC books; most of my favorites are the darker, genre esque stuff of the Dark line.
    Check out my New Blog! Just a random assortment of ideas, thoughts, and reviews!

    http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/

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