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  1. #211

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    For what it is worth, though, I expect to see a decrease in DC's genre diversity as time goes on.

    Men of War was an abject failure and the creative team on the next War book they have replacing it dooms it to failure as well.
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  2. #212
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    Yeah DC does have the diversity.. but that diversity does nothing for me.. their "diverse" books arent worth buying to me and the sales show they dont mean much to a lot of people. (barring the New52 factor) their "diverse" titles had 2 that cracked the 20k sales mark before the relaunch (batgirl and supergirl at @ 23k)
    Yeah, but I don't mean diverse necessarily in terms of social-equality. The relaunch has given books with horror or comedy leanings a chance to survive in this market whereas they'd have had a very difficult time breaking in beforehand.

    It also means not just pushing a few main franchises above all else.


    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    DC isnt immune to pushing their top characters.. (why would any company not) look at the top 10 DC books in January
    It's not simply a matter of pushing their top characters, it's the idea of pushing it to the extent that you're suffocating out the rest of the field.

    60% of Marvel's output is Big 3 related. That simply can't be said for DC's bigegst 3 franchises (Batman, Superman & Green Lantern only amount to 40% of DC's solicits).

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    7 out of 10 are either Batman(4) or Superman (2) and a joint effort JLA. Throw in Flash, GL, and Aquaman ..ALL in JLA and you can see that pattern.
    I think it's silly to suggest that Flash, Wonder Woman & Aquaman are selling because they're affiliations to the Justice League. They're selling because the fans gave them a chance and most enjoy the story being delivered.

    If you're going to lump books like Flash, WW, and Aquaman fall under the JL banner then you have to go ahead and say that Capt. America, Hulk, Thor and Iron Man fall under the Avengers banner, and you're probably talking about 80-90% of Marvel's output contracted to just their 3 Big franchises.

    I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of book's success like Captain America or Journey into Mystery

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    Marvel takes 8 out of the next 10 spots with a smattering of Avengers, Xmen and Spiderman books. mixed in are WonderWoman( again JLA) and Teen Titans (Teenaged version of JLA)
    Excluding JLA, DC's Top 10 sweep in January includes 5 different characters/franchises - Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, Flash and Aquaman.

    Imagine if Marvel's Top 10 featured 5 (or 6) different franchises. Right now their Top 15 are a clean Big-3 sweep.

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    DCs diversity isnt exactly setting the world on fire.
    It's all relative, they have 3 female-solo titles in the Top 25, Marvel could never match that in the market they've created. Storm, Spider-Girl & Black Widow would be completely cannibalized by the books Marvel has pushed and slapped with $3.99.

    DC's top books also feature Animal Man & Swamp Thing, that allow different readers different opportunities.

    I hope my tone doesn't come across antagonistically, I just find the comparison of what the 2 companies are doing differently to be very interesting.

  3. #213

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    The thing is, when two of your franchises are "X Men" and "Avengers", that gives you a lot more potential diversity in style, tone, etc than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern.

    I don't see any problem with a huge number of Avengers books, because every Avengers book can be totally different from every other. There is no reason that "Avengers" and "New Avengers" need have the same mission statement, they don't need to share any characters, they don't need to have any interaction at all.

    "Justice League Dark" in no way overlaps with "Justice League". It's just trading on the brand name, which is dangerous in terms of dilution but fine in terms of creativity. They exist in totally different spaces, have totally different mission statements and styles and team make ups. I'm happy that a book like Justice League Dark probably gets a 20 K bump in readership for having "JL" in the title.

    It doesn't hurt anyone to have a billion Avengers book. What hurts is to have a billion avengers books starring Spiderman and Wolverine and written by Bendis (or Fraction, or Hickman, or any one guy).
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  4. #214
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I don't see any problem with a huge number of Avengers books, because every Avengers book can be totally different from every other. There is no reason that "Avengers" and "New Avengers" need have the same mission statement, they don't need to share any characters, they don't need to have any interaction at all.
    I agree with what you're saying and I'm understanding it better as the conversation continues.

    I think the key differentiator though is when those core-franchises impact the entire Marvel universe.
    That might be where the difference lies. I think that focus (in addition to the price hike) has led to the minimization of solo titles, regardless of quality and to the near-disappearance of secondary-tier titles.

    (And this isn't a key differentiator from DC currently, as it remains to be seen how much DC allows their new universe to remain independent from universe-wide Events.)

  5. #215

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    I'm not sure that having solo titles should be a goal in and of itself. If they're good, sure, but I don't htink there is anything inherently better about having a good solo title rather than a good team title.

    Company wide events is a problem, certainly, and they absolutely lead to a homogenization in tone. I'd like to see every title just do its own thing from here to infinity, frankly. I think the upcoming "Court of Owls" thing is a mistake, I think the Snyder/Lemire Animal Man crossover is unnecessary, I think all this Daredevil crossing over is hurt, etc.

    But we're talking about diversity of content, not just in temrs of the ethnicity of characters but of genre, and that's not in any way downgraded by having a bunch of "Avengers" titles, per se.

    The double shipping, absolutely, that's hurtful. That's a streamlining of voices and content and style and I'm not a fan of that in general. But a lot of Avengers titles, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    The thing is, when two of your franchises are "X Men" and "Avengers", that gives you a lot more potential diversity in style, tone, etc than Superman, Batman, Green Lantern.
    this was where i was trying to go with my lame attempts at illustrating it.

    Avengers:
    Cap (own books)
    IM (own book)
    Thor (own books)
    SpiderMan (own books)
    Wolv (own Book)
    Rulk (own book)
    Hulk (own book)
    Thing
    Iron Fist
    Storm
    Hawkeye
    Beast
    Black Widow
    Vision
    PowerMan
    Valyrie
    NohVarr
    Pym
    Tigra
    SpiderWoman
    Jocasta

    Xmen:
    too many to type anymore.. you get the point

    JLA:
    Batman (own books)
    Superman(own books)
    Flash(own book)
    GL(own books)
    Wonderwoman(own book)
    Aquaman(own book)
    Cyborg

    DC has much less diversity in their core books.

    Marvel is rocking; white dudes, white chicks, Black dudes, black women , Chinese dudes , Russian chicks , Androids , Felines, Nerds, Aliens, Gods,mutants, Atlantians, .. even a Canadian! all in core books.

    DC is rocking; White dude with tons of money
    White dude with green ring
    White dude with speed
    White dude from Krypton (alien)
    White dude who talks to fish
    White chick from Paradise (God)
    Black guy

    I hope Im not being antagonistic either.. just having a fun discussion.

  7. #217
    Senior Member turtlefood's Avatar
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    I agree that the entire Marvel Universe is more diverse than a newly formed Justice League.
    Currently recommending: Daredevil, Mudman ( it's back!), Hawkguy, and FF. Can't miss!

  8. #218
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    this was where i was trying to go with my lame attempts at illustrating it.

    Avengers:
    Cap (own books)
    IM (own book)
    Thor (own books)
    SpiderMan (own books)
    Wolv (own Book)
    Rulk (own book)
    Hulk (own book)
    Thing
    Iron Fist
    Storm
    Hawkeye
    Beast
    Black Widow
    Vision
    PowerMan
    Valyrie
    NohVarr
    Pym
    Tigra
    SpiderWoman
    Jocasta

    Xmen:
    too many to type anymore.. you get the point

    JLA:
    Batman (own books)
    Superman(own books)
    Flash(own book)
    GL(own books)
    Wonderwoman(own book)
    Aquaman(own book)
    Cyborg

    DC has much less diversity in their core books.

    Marvel is rocking; white dudes, white chicks, Black dudes, black women , Chinese dudes , Russian chicks , Androids , Felines, Nerds, Aliens, Gods,mutants, Atlantians, .. even a Canadian! all in core books.

    DC is rocking; White dude with tons of money
    White dude with green ring
    White dude with speed
    White dude from Krypton (alien)
    White dude who talks to fish
    White chick from Paradise (God)
    Black guy

    I hope Im not being antagonistic either.. just having a fun discussion.
    This is what I was trying to get to earlier in this thread. Marvel is and always has been rocking diversity. Also best part of Avengers and X titles is that we actually get to read about characters who we love but can hold a solo title. At this point in time almost all of the core X-Men are represented which gives fans of individual characters the ability to follow their favorites. It's also away to get the B-D characters a chance to shine. While over at DC a lot of their B-D characters are obscure, under utilize and come off as incredibly boring because of their lack of exposure in other titles.

  9. #219
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    Yet it was DC that gave Power Girl, Batgirl, Huntress tryouts and have now given Resurection Man, Grifter, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad and others try outs. Of those titles marvel has nothing that comes close to Batwoman, Birds of Prey or Suicide Squad.

    Mark_S

  10. #220
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Of those titles marvel has nothing that comes close to Batwoman, Birds of Prey or Suicide Squad.

    Mark_S
    Right, I believe the issue though is that those titles couldn't survive in a Marvel climate where books like Bru's Captain America, Aaron's Hulk & Waid's Daredevil take a backseat.

  11. #221
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Right, so maybe we're just venturing into subjective territory.

    You feel that Marvel's Top 15 (for example) is more diverse than DC's, and I feel that DC's provides more diversity in their content.

    Marvel: Uncanny X-Men x2, Wolverine & the X-Men, Wolverine, Avengers X-Sanction, Amazing Spider-Man x2, Avengers, Scarlet Spider, New Avengers, Avenging Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Force x2, Ultimate Spider-Man, Deadpool

    DC: JL, Batman x4, Superman x2, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, GL New Guardians, Batwoman, Batgirl.

    Maybe the problem is in promotion, like I'm unaware of the differences between Avengers vs. New Avengers, or Spider-Man vs. Avenging Spider-Man.
    I know that Uncanny X-Force is a different book than your standard X-Title, but that's how I'd feel about saying Batwoman & Batgirl aren't simply "Batman" books.

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    I hope Im not being antagonistic either.. just
    having a fun discussion.
    Yeah, that's great. It just seems often when I raise an opinion that criticizes Marvel, my points are completely left unaddressed for the sake of insults.
    Last edited by Ari Gold; 02-21-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  12. #222
    I have a nice mustache Van Custo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    Marvel's comics are not "better" than DC's at all. How can you have a "variety" if every other book is a clone of another book? That's variety??
    How many X-books are there compared to Avengers titles and throw in the growing number of Spidey books? Over at DC, the fans are griping about a mere FOUR Batman books!

    Marvel is owned by Disney.

    DC is owned by Time-Warner--no contest.
    So basically your argument is....DC is better because you say so.

  13. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by fedup23 View Post
    this was where i was trying to go with my lame attempts at illustrating it.

    Avengers:
    Cap (own books)
    IM (own book)
    Thor (own books)
    SpiderMan (own books)
    Wolv (own Book)
    Rulk (own book)
    Hulk (own book)
    Thing
    Iron Fist
    Storm
    Hawkeye
    Beast
    Black Widow
    Vision
    PowerMan
    Valyrie
    NohVarr
    Pym
    Tigra
    SpiderWoman
    Jocasta

    Xmen:
    too many to type anymore.. you get the point

    JLA:
    Batman (own books)
    Superman(own books)
    Flash(own book)
    GL(own books)
    Wonderwoman(own book)
    Aquaman(own book)
    Cyborg

    DC has much less diversity in their core books.

    Marvel is rocking; white dudes, white chicks, Black dudes, black women , Chinese dudes , Russian chicks , Androids , Felines, Nerds, Aliens, Gods,mutants, Atlantians, .. even a Canadian! all in core books.

    DC is rocking; White dude with tons of money
    White dude with green ring
    White dude with speed
    White dude from Krypton (alien)
    White dude who talks to fish
    White chick from Paradise (God)
    Black guy

    I hope Im not being antagonistic either.. just having a fun discussion.
    The issue is, though, that while teams like the Avengers and the X Men may have a minority or two on them they don't tend to be the focus. There IS a difference, naturally.


    Also you are muddling up some teams there -- you consider Avengers Academy to be a marquee book? Secret Avengers? Certainly no more so than Batwoman or Batwing.

    Anyway, there can be no doubt that DC has put a lot more focus on diversity than has Marvel at this point. Not historically, but in this moment, there are many more books focusing on ethnic and religious minorities, and those with alternative lifestyles/sexual orientations (I'm honestly not sure what the most PC term for this is at the moment. If anyone is offended by my phrasing, I apologize).

    But more important to me is the genre diversity, and DC is thoroughly killing it there, and I think historically has always been the more daring, perhaps because they've historically been number 2.
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  14. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Right, so maybe we're just venturing into subjective territory.

    You feel that Marvel's Top 15 (for example) is more diverse than DC's, and I feel that DC's provides more diversity in their content.

    Marvel: Uncanny X-Men x2, Wolverine & the X-Men, Wolverine, Avengers X-Sanction, Amazing Spider-Man x2, Avengers, Scarlet Spider, New Avengers, Avenging Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Force x2, Ultimate Spider-Man, Deadpool

    DC: JL, Batman x4, Superman x2, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, GL New Guardians, Batwoman, Batgirl.

    Maybe the problem is in promotion, like I'm unaware of the differences between Avengers vs. New Avengers, or Spider-Man vs. Avenging Spider-Man.
    I know that Uncanny X-Force is a different book than your standard X-Title, but that's how I'd feel about saying Batwoman & Batgirl aren't simply "Batman" books.
    Well, for one, it's not an issue of marketing. Avengers and New Avengers are largely identical, neither having any specific purpose and both written by the same writer. It's sort of to be expected, I think. And the line, the rest of the line, is often in service of that Bendis constellation, playing support for what he is doing.

    But honestly it's no worse than what is going on in the (much smaller) Green Lantern franchise, with writers handpicked to play support roles for Geoff Johns rather than craft compelling stories, concepts and niches of their own. There is a creeping mediocrity, a sad sameness, to both lines in my mind.

    Also, I'm liking something like Uncanny X-Force, but that book IS very similar to the rest of the X line. It has a purpose for sure, but it's not nearly as distinct as, say, JL Dark vs JL. More like JL vs JLI. The tone is deadly serious with a few quips, same as Uncanny X Men and Wolverine and the X Men (though Uncanny is smarter, and Wolverine and the X Men is just flatly better).
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  15. #225
    Star Blazer Will.S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Yet it was DC that gave Power Girl, Batgirl, Huntress tryouts and have now given Resurection Man, Grifter, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad and others try outs. Of those titles marvel has nothing that comes close to Batwoman, Birds of Prey or Suicide Squad.

    Mark_S
    Come close in terms of quality or diversity?

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