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  1. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    You can reduce need for religion down to fear of death (or need for purpose and structure, etc. but for the sake of argument), and you can reduce financial interests down to greed (or a means of achieving security). Those are human problems that aren't caused by institutions, just expressed in them.

    You could do away with every religion in the world tomorrow, and it wouldn't stop the same feelings that created religion from manifesting in a different fashion; nor would it stop people exploiting each others beliefs for their own gain.

    These institutions have been around so long that it's easy to forget we created them, not the other way around. (And just so I don't offend anyone, I'm not referring to a "God" or anything, just financial and religions institutions like banks, churches, etc)

    Edit: And reading ahead, this has all been covered, so I apologize for bringing it up again. You guys all typed a lot, it took me a bit to catch up :)
    Yeah, but how does that relate to what I said? I simply talked about lies and I don't see how that's an answer to me.
    It's something that was studied and analyzed by millions of experts: there were lies, those lies built stuff (and by stuff I don't mean a house or a church or a castle, I mean civilizations) and we onlye benefited from them (mostly on the long term, since probably some people were killed because they were a risk or a billion other reasons). That's it. Why am I getting this answer? I don't deny that. I'm Catholic, but I'm not blind and I'm completely aware that the Church as an intistution probably made more harm then good in its existence. But really, why am I getting this? Because I mentioned religious extremists? But that's true! So true in fact that so far that part of the discussion (the all point of it) was avoided in favor of other unrelated stuff (not directing this part at you). Wars today are all related to: fascism, religious extremists and financial interests. I never at any point said we would be a big happy family if religion, fascims and capitalism didn't exist.

  2. #827
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre View Post

    PS! That's me working on your nodes
    I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be all up in my nodes like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    Yeah, but how does that relate to what I said? I simply talked about lies and I don't see how that's an answer to me.
    It's something that was studied and analyzed by millions of experts: there were lies, those lies built stuff (and by stuff I don't mean a house or a church or a castle, I mean civilizations) and we onlye benefited from them (mostly on the long term, since probably some people were killed because they were a risk or a billion other reasons). That's it. Why am I getting this answer? I don't deny that. I'm Catholic, but I'm not blind and I'm completely aware that the Church as an intistution probably made more harm then good in its existence. But really, why am I getting this? Because I mentioned religious extremists? But that's true! So true in fact that so far that part of the discussion (the all point of it) was avoided in favor of other unrelated stuff (not directing this part at you). Wars today are all related to: fascism, religious extremists and financial interests. I never at any point said we would be a big happy family if religion, fascims and capitalism didn't exist.
    There was so much back and forth that I apologize if I confused what you were trying to say, or addressed a point a view you weren't trying to espouse. I'll try to give those few pages another read and get back to you.

    My previous statement would probably make more sense outside of the Watchmen discussion that was going on earlier, but you've already responded to that statement in the sentence I highlighted up above. So, again, I misunderstood your position.

  3. #828

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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    You can reduce need for religion down to fear of death (or need for purpose and structure, etc. but for the sake of argument), and you can reduce financial interests down to greed (or a means of achieving security). Those are human problems that aren't caused by institutions, just expressed in them.

    You could do away with every religion in the world tomorrow, and it wouldn't stop the same feelings that created religion from manifesting in a different fashion; nor would it stop people exploiting each others beliefs for their own gain.

    These institutions have been around so long that it's easy to forget we created them, not the other way around. (And just so I don't offend anyone, I'm not referring to a "God" or anything, just financial and religions institutions like banks, churches, etc)
    Good Grodd, you're the most reasonable person ever!

    I love that post. You are dealing with very complex issues in very simple and synthetic lines that can't possible offend either side. It's very elegant, even with all the parenthesis.

    I know that it came in response to a misunderstanding, but if isolated from the context, those lines look pretty good. I have the same view on those topics.
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  4. #829
    Crusader of Justice dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    That part was actually completely rewritten, I originally had an example of well-known lie that we still treat as true today. But if I said it, any possible italian user in this forum would hate me for life
    Was it about who invented Pizza?

  5. #830
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    Heck was a good one..he would be vilified a lot by fans and critics, unfairly.
    He was a great draftsman, but I just think his style wasn't well-suited for super-hero comics; it seemed to be more at home in advertising or fashion.
    He was perfect for romance comics, but although I found (and still find) his style boring, the one thing he can do is draw. I look at issues of Batman, or The Avengers, or a number of popular superhero titles now and there's a serious lack of drawing ability on display by a number of artists, but editors seem intent to let them get away with drawing pin-ups rather than comics.

  6. #831
    Senior Member Eumenides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    He was perfect for romance comics, but although I found (and still find) his style boring, the one thing he can do is draw. I look at issues of Batman, or The Avengers, or a number of popular superhero titles now and there's a serious lack of drawing ability on display by a number of artists, but editors seem intent to let them get away with drawing pin-ups rather than comics.
    I agree with you and I detest contemporary comic book art; for me it's nothing but an overhyped excuse for bedroom wall posters.

  7. #832
    Senior Member Eumenides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The Cold War never became hot. There was never any nuclear war. It ended with the nations making up the Soviet Union electing to secede. And either way its a complete 180 in optimism next to what Moore proposed as eventualities.
    There was the possibility, the threat, and to many people the fear that there would be a nuclear war. Lancerman, what fears do you think movies like On The Beach, The Planet of the Apes and Dr. Strangelove are responding to, with their dystopic views of the future? Or a thriller like Fail Safe? Alan Moore didn't invent the Cold War dystopian fiction.

    The Cold War indeed didn't see a direct confrontation between the USA and the Soviet Union, but each country was behind conflicts in countless parts of the world to further their respective agendas: Cuba, Chile, Urugay, Afghanistan, Mozambique, Angola, etc.

    And the Soviet Union did not end with nations electing to secede from it. Elections? What do you it was, the European Union? Countries like Poland, the former Czechoslovakia and Hungary were invaded and dominated by the Russian army. These nations had no freedom and weren't in the union because they felt like it. The process to regain their independence was fraught with deaths, violence and resistance from the Soviet authorities.

    You also have to consider Moore wrote this in 1986, and the dissolution of the Soviet Union didn't start until 1989. Reality was indeed more optimistic than what he imagined, but it's also a fact that few in 1986 imagined the end of the Soviets was so close. The Fall of the Berlin wall was a shock. Moore, with the threat of nuclear war looming over his head, had every reason to fear a bleaker future for history. Instead of chastising Moore for not having future-reading abilities, perhaps we should be grateful things turned out better than expected.

  8. #833
    Senior Member Eumenides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    There was violence and bloodshed along the way, but it was resolved by the USSR's inevitable collapse.
    An inevitability that no one foresaw in 1986. When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 that was a shock, as was Poland achieving independence from the Soviet Union thanks to the Solidarity movement: the idea that a union leader could work up the masses enough to challenge authorities was simply too absurd to be taken seriously. And yet it happened. And if it hadn't been for Gorbachev, and his reforms, it's even debatable if the Soviet Union would have ended in 1991. A different man in power, and history would have been different. Russia was not going to collapse: Russia had enough money to finance dozens of communist states across the world, in Africa, South America, Asia, and was steady and capable of keep going for many more years. It's easy to look right in hindsight, or outside history, but for those who were living it, the fall of the Soviet Union was an unexpected event.

    It's just such a silly plan, honestly. It's one thing if the intent was for it to be a plan that makes sense in a way but was ultimately flawed, but from the get go the whole thing is nonsensical and sophomoric political theory, not something the world's smartest man should come up with.
    Well, Regan was the one who had the idea of using an alien invasion to unite mankind against a common threat; considering he wasn't a very bright man, perhaps you're right it's a silly plan. Ironically, Gorbacheve's reply to him was that instead of worrying about aliens, they should join against the more real threat of nuclear extermination.

    Has it occurred to you that perhaps the plan is supposed to be silly? That perhaps, in spite of what Veidt thinks of himself, he's not the smartest man in the world? Have you considered that perhaps that's Moore being ironic? That Veidt's arrogance blinds him to the flaws in his plan - as the ending makes it clear - and that that was Moore's point all along?

  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    He was perfect for romance comics, but although I found (and still find) his style boring, the one thing he can do is draw. I look at issues of Batman, or The Avengers, or a number of popular superhero titles now and there's a serious lack of drawing ability on display by a number of artists, but editors seem intent to let them get away with drawing pin-ups rather than comics.
    I think a lot of current (this was especially true in the 90s) learned to draw from super-hero comics, which is a spectacular way to learn nothing about craft, perspective and anatomy.

  10. #835
    Senior Member passer-by's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    There was the possibility, the threat, and to many people the fear that there would be a nuclear war. Lancerman, what fears do you think movies like On The Beach, The Planet of the Apes and Dr. Strangelove are responding to, with their dystopic views of the future? Or a thriller like Fail Safe? Alan Moore didn't invent the Cold War dystopian fiction.

    The Cold War indeed didn't see a direct confrontation between the USA and the Soviet Union, but each country was behind conflicts in countless parts of the world to further their respective agendas: Cuba, Chile, Urugay, Afghanistan, Mozambique, Angola, etc.

    And the Soviet Union did not end with nations electing to secede from it. Elections? What do you it was, the European Union? Countries like Poland, the former Czechoslovakia and Hungary were invaded and dominated by the Russian army. These nations had no freedom and weren't in the union because they felt like it. The process to regain their independence was fraught with deaths, violence and resistance from the Soviet authorities.

    You also have to consider Moore wrote this in 1986, and the dissolution of the Soviet Union didn't start until 1989. Reality was indeed more optimistic than what he imagined, but it's also a fact that few in 1986 imagined the end of the Soviets was so close. The Fall of the Berlin wall was a shock. Moore, with the threat of nuclear war looming over his head, had every reason to fear a bleaker future for history. Instead of chastising Moore for not having future-reading abilities, perhaps we should be grateful things turned out better than expected.

    I agree with the general sentiment, but as for the third paragraph these countries had their own national governments (albeit under the heavy influence of Moscow) and were part of the Soviet bloc, or Socialist bloc, or Eastern bloc which disintegrated in 1989 starting with the fall of the Berlin Wall - not part of the 15-state Soviet Union (USSR - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) which was dissolved in 1991. ;)


    And yes, for those of us who remember the world before 1989 Watchmen is that much more powerful - but many younger readers can still appreciate its historical and geopolitical references, just without the added touch of personal memories.
    Last edited by passer-by; 01-09-2013 at 06:32 PM.

  11. #836

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    Quote Originally Posted by passer-by View Post
    I agree with the general sentiment, but as for the third paragraph these countries had their own national governments (albeit under the heavy influence of Moscow) and were part of the Soviet bloc, or Socialist bloc, or Eastern bloc which disintegrated in 1989 starting with the fall of the Berlin Wall - not part of the 15-state Soviet Union (USSR - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) which was dissolved in 1991. ;)


    And yes, for those of us who remember the world before 1989 Watchmen is that much more powerful - but many younger readers can still appreciate its historical and geopolitical references, just without the added touch of personal memories.
    How soon was people able to realize that Watchmen was one of the greatest masterpieces of DC? All I know is that it was a really big deal at least by the early 90s, along with DKR, Year One and V.
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  12. #837
    Junior Member demos99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    How soon was people able to realize that Watchmen was one of the greatest masterpieces of DC? All I know is that it was a really big deal at least by the early 90s, along with DKR, Year One and V.
    I'll have to check my cuttings files from around that time but I seem to recall the non-comics mainstream media (example) picking up on Watchmenand DKR from about 1987 onwards, so my recollection is us comics readers knew at the time we were reading something special.
    "Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel Ö with a bit of pornography if you're lucky." - Alan Moore

  13. #838
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demos99 View Post
    I'll have to check my cuttings files from around that time but I seem to recall the non-comics mainstream media (example) picking up on Watchmenand DKR from about 1987 onwards, so my recollection is us comics readers knew at the time we were reading something special.
    I was reading comics and comic journalism around that time; Watchmen was seen as something very important, in terms of craft and creator rights (especially from DC).

  14. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    No, they're pretty much the cause. Extremist follow a religion and financial interests are generated by greed. The lies are still there, not hurting anyone. There are stuff that is teached in schools about, for example, the XV/XVI/XVII centuries that by now we know were just fabricated lies. Still, we treated as truth.
    Do you honestly think truth triumph all. Pleaase !! tell me you aren't that naive. Jesus once said something like this " John the Baptist neither drank wine or partied therefore you say he has a demon, I the Son of Man drink and dance, but you say how can this man be from God since he drinks and parties". The point being will find a reason to hate or kill regardless of truth and lies. As Obama has found, there are some people even if, Jesus, Mohamed, Abraham<MLK and Gandhi rolled into one preached to them they would hate or kill you.

  15. #840
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    And if it hadn't been for Gorbachev, and his reforms, it's even debatable if the Soviet Union would have ended in 1991. A different man in power, and history would have been different. Russia was not going to collapse: Russia had enough money to finance dozens of communist states across the world, in Africa, South America, Asia, and was steady and capable of keep going for many more years.
    Russia was unable to feed it's people when Gorbachev came into power, hence why he had to try to reform the USSR in order to get more trade with the west. He knew the system was failing and that Russia itself was on a knife edge in terms of whether it could survive a harsh winter or two, let alone a protracted war of attrition with the US and the west.

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