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  1. #766
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    I don't receive any of this as a slight against Maus. I receive it as an overrating of Watchmen. Nothing personal.

  2. #767

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    I'm assuming you're american, one of those that treats the hypocrites "Founding Fathers" as gods. That explains a lot. You have a tradition of rewritting your own history and your statements just proves it.
    For what it's worth, I've been raised in the states but feel no particular allegiance to the country. I'm socialist in every way that matters, more socialist than most I meet in europe or from europe. I just think the problems are bigger, more fundamental.

    But the quoted sentence is exactly why we can't engage in any sort of discussion, here or anywhere else; you're making vast generalizations and assumptions, all while simplifying the real issues. I find your view to be myopic and dogmatic, which ( you guessed it) circles back to my point; if it's not religion or capitalism, it's something else. It's human nature, and the real work of changing the world is much harder - much more personal - than changing institutions.
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  3. #768

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I don't receive any of this as a slight against Maus. I receive it as an overrating of Watchmen. Nothing personal.
    Cool cool, I'm fine with that. As I said, I hold Watchmen in very high regard -- even if I wouldn't say it's my favorite, personally. The subject matter and the things it addresses, or attempts to address, aren't nearly as interesting as the more philosophical work of Morrison (or even of Moore, in Swamp Thing).
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  4. #769
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    I'm assuming you're american, one of those that treats the hypocrites "Founding Fathers" as gods. That explains a lot. You have a tradition of rewritting your own history and your statements just proves it..
    Whoa, come on. Is this needed?

    Say what you want but don't be a dickhead.
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  5. #770
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    Now may bring a contender to the ring in terms of technical:

    Last edited by Johnny P. Sartre; 01-08-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  6. #771

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    Yes, Starstruck was very much a proto-Watchmen in that regard. I never finished it, admittedly; too much start and stop, switching publishers, etc.

    I quite enjoyed it, though, up through the Epic series. Never did track down all the Dark Horse "Expanding Universe" stuff. I understand IDW did a 'definitive' version relatively recently, and have been meaning to check it out.
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  7. #772
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    Get the IDW version; Lee and Kaluta had a hand in making it and made sure the purchaser got everything they wanted and more.

    It's more than a Proto-Watchmen and deserves to stand in its own; both are technically amazing books and brought different types of themes (done maturely and intelligently).

    SS brought Feminism in all it's glory and dealt with all its cons and pros; it also heavily satirized the arts, gambling, religion, vanity, politics and militarism by making them into characters and showing them in all their absurdity! I mean the The Arts are conceptual art assassins who eliminate creators of really bad plays; and a conjoined trio of actors turning frilliness into high drama.

    Not only that, Lee brought forth a vast number of characters --all unreliable narrators with personal gains to be had-- and uses their narration and number (spanning three decades) and intertwined them beautifully; all this causes a claustrophobia to the reader and to the physical space of the comic.

    I'm going to stop now because I don't want to ruin it for those who haven't read it (I haven't even touched Kaluta's art and design choices and the multilayering motifs and how it operates on varying different levels upon rereading it). Please, read it, anyone who hasn't. Think of it as this: if Robert Altman and Pynchon had a child, it would be this book.
    Last edited by Johnny P. Sartre; 01-08-2013 at 10:56 AM.
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  8. #773
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    My problem with Watchmen is that Moore's politics themes are so overly cynical, it's myopic.
    It's called being realistic about politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    The Cold War was resolved peacefully, and even if it wasn't
    Either the Cold War was resolved peacefully, or it wasn't. History shows it wasn't, but you can't exactly have your cake and eat it with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    history shows that Veidt's idiotic plan wasn't going to achieve it
    You didn't understand the end of the book did you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    The whole book is just pretentious and overwrought.
    Go on, explain why instead of just using the same opinion you've heard from thousands of other people who don't understand those words either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I don't doubt Watchmen was a crown achievement for the graphic novel medium in its day, but I don't think it holds up.
    Compared to what?

  9. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    It's called being realistic about politics.
    No it's just being pessimistic to the point of inaccuracy.

    Either the Cold War was resolved peacefully, or it wasn't. History shows it wasn't, but you can't exactly have your cake and eat it with this.
    History shows it was resolved peacefully.

    You didn't understand the end of the book did you?
    No I got it. I just thought Veidt was supposed to be the smartest man in the world.

    Go on, explain why instead of just using the same opinion you've heard from thousands of other people who don't understand those words either.
    My complaints extend mostly to just what I've already said. Again while I don't doubt it was an achievement for the medium, the meticulous structuring gets too much in the way for me to just enjoy it as a story.

  10. #775
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    No I got it. I just thought Veidt was supposed to be the smartest man in the world.
    A god knows more than the smartest man. That's what I think Moore was saying.

  11. #776
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    The leveling of the 'pretentious' criticism to anything challenging and erudite is tried and true, and very frustrating.
    It's deliberately anti-intellectual, but done in a smugly superior way to make being a bit thick actually something to be impressed about as they try to drag everyone down to their level.

    It's the same as American politicians laughing at people for going to university or speaking a language other than English. It's shockingly depressing.

  12. #777
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    ...No, I'm a graduate student at college. I just don't like Watchmen, but I prefer some of Moore's other works.

    I'm not against books trying to be intellectual, I just find Watchmen to be overly cynical that it doesn't work for me.
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 01-08-2013 at 11:41 AM.

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre View Post
    Whoa, come on. Is this needed?

    Say what you want but don't be a dickhead.
    Was I? I was merely refering to something that is pretty clear to anyone that looks at the American media. I was not calling Desaad an hypocrite.

    EDIT: Ok, re-read it. The "one of those" part was uncalled for and I apologize (and actually was not what I was aiming to say), but other than that I don't think I said anything wrong
    Last edited by Bruce Kent; 01-08-2013 at 11:41 AM.

  14. #779
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre View Post
    Now may bring a contender to the ring in terms of technical:

    To a point, and you can throw in Rick Veitch's The One, and the criminally forgotten about Moonshadow which everyone seems to forget was the first mainstream comic which made people from outside of comics to take note that things were changing and weren't just superheroes. In fact I'd rate Moonshadow as the first genuinely literary comic published by either Marvel or DC.

  15. #780
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Not liking Watchmen is fine, but there isn't anything pretentious about it. It is not only a deconstruction of the juvenile super-hero genre, it is also an examination of the comic book medium.
    It's not done as well in a technical sense like recent works from Chris Ware, but it is a story that is crafted for only the comic book medium; that is why the film adaptation was utterly flawed and unnecessary.

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